Assume the following:
1) Fighter is standing adjacent to enemy finger-wiggler.
2) Fighter has Combat Reflexes, Disruptive, Spellbreaker & Teleport Tactician.
3) Fighter has Step Up, Following Step and Step Up & Strike.
4) Fighter has a good enough Spellcraft skill to identify spells being cast.
5) Finger-Wiggler has no idea what Fighter's feats are.
Fighter declares "Readied Action: Stab Finger-wiggler when he starts casting spells."
Finger-wiggler moves 5' away from Fighter.
Fighter uses Immediate Action to move 10' and Step Up & Strike if needed - possibly getting flanking.
Finger-wiggler eats first AoO. Call this Time Point 1.
Because the 5' step is a miscellaneous action, this AoO doesn't force a concentration check.
Finger-wiggler declares Defensive Casting. Starts casting spell.
Fighter takes Free Action to identify spell being cast with Spellcraft.
Fighter uses Readied Action to attack Finger-wiggler in the middle of casting. Call this Time Point 2. Fighter makes snarky comment about how Finger-wiggler has been snacking on spell components due to bat-guano-breath, because Fighter is totally that jock who picked on the nerdy kid with acne in MurderHobo School.
This IS interrupting the spell, so the spellcaster is making a concentration check. As near as I can tell, the DC is 15+4+(2*Spell Level)+Attack Damage. Assume the fighter's weapon does about 15-20 points at 10th level. Had Finger-wiggler realized there was a held action, he's actually better off not casting defensively if he can absorb the hit. The Concentration DC for a fourth level spell would be 13 less because Disruptive only affects the DC when casting defensively.
Finger-wiggler probably fails a DC 42+ Concentration Check for Defensive Casting. This triggers Spellbreaker.
Finger-wiggler eats second AoO. Call this Time Point 3. This is third attack Finger-wiggler eats, and because it's a different triggering event, he does get two AoOs. Like the AoO for Step Up & Strike, this probably doesn't trigger a Concentration Check.
Finger-wiggler says "Ow, Ow, Ow!" Casts Quickened Dimension Door from within Fighter's threatened Area. This triggers Teleport Tactician.
Normally, quickened spells don't provoke. Teleport Tactician says that teleporting into or out of the threatened area provokes.
Finger-wiggler eats third AoO because of Teleport Tactician.
So, we have given Finger-wiggler a very very unpleasant few seconds. Potentially eating four attacks, and decent odds of having a critical hit in there.
Now comes the questions:
Question 1:
At Time Point 2, if I use a Readied Action to attack someone Casting Defensively and hit, how does my weapon damage interact with the concentration DC?
I see two possible outcomes:
1) Add weapon damage to the Casting Defensively DC. Roll once. This actually makes casting defensively when someone can use a readied action worse in most ways than just eating the AoO if you have the hit points to take the shot.
2) Roll the Casting Defensively DC without the weapon damage, and if that succeeds, roll a second Concentration check at 10+Spell Level+Weapon Damage. If this interpretation is correct, then Disruptive (and by extension, Spellbreaker) do not apply, and if the attacker has Spellbreaker, failing this second concentration check is much less hazardous to your health than failing the first one.
Question 2:
Does the Finger-wiggler have to make a concentration check for that Quickened Dimension Door that got messed up by Teleport Tactician? Is Teleport Tactician allowing me to interrupt a quickened spell?
I see three possible outcomes:
1) I get the AoO, he gets to Dimension Door away, if he survives the AoO. No concentration check is needed.
2) I get the AoO, he has to make a Concentration check. Concentration Check DC is 10+Spell Level+AoO Damage. Failing the Concentration Check means he doesn't get to Dimension Door. Not getting the Dimension Door means being next to Fighter on Fighter's next round, which means eating a full attack, and if he 5' steps away, another AoO from Step Up & Strike. This is not a good thing from the Finger-wiggler's perspective.
3) I get the AoO, he has to make a Concentration check, and Casting Defensively is a persistent state, like using Power Attack. This means the Concentration Check DC is the same as the DC at Time Point 2, meaning Disruptive and Spellbreaker apply, and failing the check not only means he doesn't Dimension Door away, but he eats a fourth attack of opportunity. Also, if he survives that, next round he eats a full attack plus possibly AoOs triggered by 5' step and/or failing a concentration check.
I think I could see either outcome 1 or outcome 2 on Question 1. I think that outcome 1 is probably better; Disruptive is already one of the most situational feats in the game.
I am pretty sure outcome 3 DOES NOT apply to Question 2; I see nothing that states that Casting Defensively is a persistent state if you cast a second spell in a round, and Quickened Spell specifically states that that quickened spells don't provoke AoOs. Teleport Tactician says that the act of teleporting in or out provokes.
I am uncertain if outcome 1 or outcome 2 applies. I think outcome 2 applies, but it's a genuinely not-covered contradiction in the rules, and I could see lots of people who dislike martials getting nice things getting their panties in a bunch if they didn't get outcome 1.
In terms of feat investment to get outcome 2 or outcome 3, recall that this is a chain of 4 feats, with a minimum level of 11th before it can happen. This is someone who has made a significant investment in going into puree mode against a Finger-wiggler.
You only make 1 concentration check for spellcasting, but you apply the corresponding check for whichever instance applies.
Question 1's answer should be 3. ;) They would cast defensively if you miss your attack; if you hit, they would use the concentration check for taking damage during casting a spell: 10+spell level+damage taken+4 for disruptive for the DC. Both options trigger Spellbreaker should they fail their concentration check.
Question 2 should be cleared up significantly by my answer to Question 1.
Teleport Tactician should operate off of even a quickened spell.. It operates off of Su abilities, and Teleport Wizards Shift abiliity is Su to teleport as a swift action, same action as a quickened spell.
Firstly, I have a question about your scenario. You say "Finger-wiggler moves 5' away from Fighter." If that's truly a "move" and not a "five-foot step", then "Step Up" doesn't trigger but leaving a square in the fighter's threatened area would provoke. I'm going to assume you meant a five foot step.
To question #1, the answer is a modified 2
In general, readied actions occur before the triggers, so I believe that readied attack happens before the spell-casting. Assuming the the caster lives through that attack, he then begins casting.
The concentration check for casting defensively is usually done first (because failure means the spell is lost and a second check is moot) and is entirely separate from the one for taking damage while casting. The fighter's Disruptive feat applies to this casting defensively concentration check. If this check is failed, the spell is lost. Usually, that's the end of it, but in addition to losing the spell, Spellbreaker kicks in and causes another provocation. Any question of this second AoO's damage stacking with the damage from the readied attack damage for the damaged while casting concentration check is moot because the spell is lost anyway.
Let's say the casting defensively check is successful. NOW a second check is required because the caster took damage during casting (the fighter's readied attack). Disruptive and Spellbreaker do not apply, because this is not a check to cast defensively.
As to question #2, I'll need to do a bit of research and then edit my response.
EDIT: After further review, I'm certain that the fighter does get an AoO for the Dimension Door, but only if it succeeds. Here's my reasoning.
Casting a quickened spell doesn't provoke. Even if the fighter makes a spellcraft roll to know that dimension door is being cast, that doesn't suddenly make it provoke. If the caster were under some sort of continuous damage effect he'd have to make a concentration roll for that. Once the spell is complete and the caster dimdoors away, THAT (using a teleportation effect to enter or leave a square in the Teleport Tactician's threatened area) provokes. As the casty is stepping into his spell effect is when he gets shanked.
So that's answer 1 to question 2.
@CrazyElf.
The way Disruptive is worded, the ONLY time it applies is if the caster is doing the 15+(2*Spell Level) Casting Defensively DC. It would be MUCH MUCH simpler if it (and Spellbreaker) applied whenever ANY concentration effect triggered by the Disruptive fighter failed, which is what you think it's doing. I REALLY wish that were the case, and I'm willing to bet that this is carry-over sloppy wording from 3.0 or 3.5.
@SlimGauge
If the readied action occurs before the trigger, and thus before the spell casting, one of the standard tactics ("I ready an action and shoot him with a bow if he starts casting...") of the game goes away - the readied action is an interrupt on the spell. The rules very specifically state that the readied can interrupt a spell.
Your interpretation is that the readied action happens before the spell (like the AoO at Time Point 1), and shouldn't force a concentration check on the spellcaster. My experience in game is that the readied action forces a concentration check.
The question is whether or not the weapon damage adds to the higher DC of the Defensive Casting check, or if it's a second concentration check on its own only if the initial Defensive Casting check succeeds.
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I know Teleport Tactician gets the AoO against the quickened spell/Su ability. That's a given.
What I don't know is if hitting with that AoO forces a Concentration Check. I can see the argument either way ("No, it doesn't - you shank him as he shimmers out") or ("Ow that hurt, hope I don't lose this spell...") and whether or not failing that concentration check triggers Spellbreaker a second time.
Rules As Written, Disruptive/Spellbreaker only apply when someone casts defensively. Rules As Commonly Interpreted, Disruptive/Spellbreaker are often read as applying whenever a concentration check fails around the person who has them, and my first question almost goes away on that first interpretation.
To question #1, the answer is a modified 2In general, readied actions occur before the triggers, so I believe that readied attack happens before the spell-casting. Assuming the the caster lives through that attack, he then begins casting.
This is not entirely correct. It is correct that a readied action goes before the triggering action (though what is really meant by that is the triggering action has started, but the outcome of that is not yet resolved).
Readied actions though are explicitly stated as being usable to interrupt a spellcaster and force a concentration check.
Distracting Spellcasters: You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell.” If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Spellcraft check result).
For question #2 from AdAstraGames
The spell cannot be interrupted by this AoO. The trigger is teleporting, not casting. The teleport happens AFTER the spell casting is complete.For example, if the wizard had a dimensional anchor cast on him (but was unaware of it for some reason), he could still cast his dimension door, but would not trigger an AoO from Teleport Tactician as he did not actually teleport.
That opens another can of interesting.
Slightly different circumstance:
Fighter has Teleport Tactician and a Phase-Locking sword and is threatening a finger-wiggler.
Finger-wiggler casts Quickened Dimension Door, triggering an AoO.
Does the triggered AoO with the Phase-Locking sword stop the Quickened Dimension Door?
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What I don't know is if hitting with that AoO forces a Concentration Check. I can see the argument either way ("No, it doesn't - you shank him as he shimmers out") or ("Ow that hurt, hope I don't lose this spell...") and whether or not failing that concentration check triggers Spellbreaker a second time.
No, it does not cause a concentration check.*
the trigger is leaving your threatened square via dimensional travel.
By definition this means the spell succeeded.
*The caveat to this is that if there is a teleportation spell with duration concentration, then it's possible he would leave you square, get hit, and then make a concentration check and lose the rest of the spell, stranding him wherever he just jumped to. I can't remember if there is one like that.
@SlimGauge
If the readied action occurs before the trigger, and thus before the spell casting, one of the standard tactics ("I ready an action and shoot him with a bow if he starts casting...") of the game goes away - the readied action is an interrupt on the spell. The rules very specifically state that the readied can interrupt a spell.
The tactic doesn't go away. As you say, the rules state that you have to make the "damaged while casting" check, even though your attack was resolved before casting began. I'm not saying this doesn't happen.
Your interpretation is that the readied action happens before the spell (like the AoO at Time Point 1), and shouldn't force a concentration check on the spellcaster. My experience in game is that the readied action forces a concentration check.
The readied action DOES occur before the spell and is resolved then, but the damage "carries over" into the concentration check.
The question is whether or not the weapon damage adds to the higher DC of the Defensive Casting check, or if it's a second concentration check on its own only if the initial Defensive Casting check succeeds.
They are separate checks with different triggering criteria. The first is triggered by the caster stating that he's casting defensively. The second is triggered by the caster taking damage while casting.
I know Teleport Tactician gets the AoO against the quickened spell/Su ability. That's a given.
What I don't know is if hitting with that AoO forces a Concentration Check. I can see the argument either way ("No, it doesn't - you shank him as he shimmers out") or ("Ow that hurt, hope I don't lose this spell...") and whether or not failing that concentration check triggers Spellbreaker a second time.
Remember, it's not the casting of the spell that provokes due to Teleport Tactician, but the effect of the spell (entering or leaving a threatened square via teleportation) that provokes. The spell is already cast.
Rules As Written, Disruptive/Spellbreaker only apply when someone casts defensively.
True.
Rules As Commonly Interpreted, Disruptive/Spellbreaker are often read as applying whenever a concentration check fails around the person who has them, and my first question almost goes away on that first interpretation.
I've never seen it interpreted that way. Of course, most casters facing the party barbarian never get the chance in the parties I've been in.
Remember, it's not the casting of the spell that provokes due to Teleport Tactician, but the effect of the spell (entering or leaving a threatened square via teleportation) that provokes. The spell is already cast.
A related question -- say the Fighter in question had Dazing Assault up at the time of the AoO. Assuming the caster fails his Fort save (not a given), he will be dazed from the hit. Will he (A) be dazed and be in his original square, or (B) be dazed and be in his new square? My reading of the rules would be (B), but I'm curious what others have to say on the matter.
That opens another can of interesting.
Slightly different circumstance:
Fighter has Teleport Tactician and a Phase-Locking sword and is threatening a finger-wiggler.
Finger-wiggler casts Quickened Dimension Door, triggering an AoO.
Does the triggered AoO with the Phase-Locking sword stop the Quickened Dimension Door?
Yes. The teleport is no longer a valid option at that point, so while it was intended, it is blocked now so does not occur.
Remember, it's not the casting of the spell that provokes due to Teleport Tactician, but the effect of the spell (entering or leaving a threatened square via teleportation) that provokes. The spell is already cast.A related question -- say the Fighter in question had Dazing Assault up at the time of the AoO. Assuming the caster fails his Fort save (not a given), he will be dazed from the hit. Will he (A) be dazed and be in his original square, or (B) be dazed and be in his new square? My reading of the rules would be (B), but I'm curious what others have to say on the matter.
Teleport still goes off as the spell was completed successfully, and nothing is preventing its effect from taking place in that scenario.
Yes. The teleport is no longer a valid option at that point, so while it was intended, it is blocked now so does not occur.That opens another can of interesting.
Slightly different circumstance:
Fighter has Teleport Tactician and a Phase-Locking sword and is threatening a finger-wiggler.
Finger-wiggler casts Quickened Dimension Door, triggering an AoO.
Does the triggered AoO with the Phase-Locking sword stop the Quickened Dimension Door?
While I agree with this - and it's a pretty specialized ability, so should have its chances to give Crowning Moments of Awesome when it comes up...
Based on prior answers in this thread, if the Teleport Tactician doesn't trigger a concentration check - the feat is triggered by the SUCCESSFUL teleportation - I could see an argument for "He successfully teleports and is then Phase-Locked for a round at his new destination."