RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I blame the Albanians. They were moving into Serbian lands unlawfully. A few of the Albanians went so far as to kill off Serbian families for their land, Serbians retaliated, Albanians retaliated, and so on.
I was there soon after NATO moved in. I liked dealing with the Serbians, they were mostly polite, but some were pissed off they were stopped. The Albanians reminded me of entitled children. Most we dealt with were pissed that NATO did not kill off a bunch of Serbians and felt they deserved land in exchange, never mind the deaths on either side.
You could always tell the difference when approaching the villages. Serbian ones were mostly free of refuse. On the other hand, you would see burning piles of trash on the roads at Albanian villages. Made a difference in which group the NATO forces hired as well. Albanian food workers were often the cause of food hygiene problems and they did a poor job with the laundry.
A good place to start would be Balkan Express, by Slavenka Drakulić, which is a series of essays, newspaper columns and reportages from the early stages of the wars. She's from Croatia, but no nationalist.
And another good starting point could be the BBC Documentary The Death of Yugoslavia.
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I blame the Albanians. They were moving into Serbian lands unlawfully. A few of the Albanians went so far as to kill off Serbian families for their land, Serbians retaliated, Albanians retaliated, and so on.
I was there soon after NATO moved in. I liked dealing with the Serbians, they were mostly polite, but some were pissed off they were stopped. The Albanians reminded me of entitled children. Most we dealt with were pissed that NATO did not kill off a bunch of Serbians and felt they deserved land in exchange, never mind the deaths on either side.
You could always tell the difference when approaching the villages. Serbian ones were mostly free of refuse. On the other hand, you would see burning piles of trash on the roads at Albanian villages. Made a difference in which group the NATO forces hired as well. Albanian food workers were often the cause of food hygiene problems and they did a poor job with the laundry.
Given the Albanians have centuries of being mistreated and suppressed by the Serbs, I fail to see how they are to blame. Self-detemination is an accepted right. A lot of misinformation was spread in Serbia, Kosovo and elsewhere in the lead up to the fighting in 1998. But when the fighting started it was Serbs responsible for the first massacres of civilians, followed up by further atrocities on both sides.
So the Albanians didn't do a good job with your laundry. Way to trivialise an issue with a petty first world problem. Try being an Albanian under the control of the Serbs, then you'll know what problems are.
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Given the Albanians have centuries of being mistreated and suppressed by the Serbs, I fail to see how they are to blame. Self-detemination is an accepted right. A lot of misinformation was spread in Serbia, Kosovo and elsewhere in the lead up to the fighting in 1998. But when the fighting started it was Serbs responsible for the first massacres of civilians, followed up by further atrocities on both sides.So the Albanians didn't do a good job with your laundry. Way to trivialise an issue with a petty first world problem. Try being an Albanian under the control of the Serbs, then you'll know what problems are.
Centuries? Please tell me how Serbs could have mistreated Albanians before the 1820s? You know, being under Ottoman rule and all. Also, Albania didn't exist as a country before WW2. Also, they were allowed to settle on Kosovo for free after WW2, and misused that.
I see that you only listened to one side. Good for you.
Centuries? Please tell me how Serbs could have mistreated Albanians before the 1820s? You know, being under Ottoman rule and all. Also, Albania didn't exist as a country before WW2.
Given the Albanians have centuries of being mistreated and suppressed by the Serbs, I fail to see how they are to blame. Self-detemination is an accepted right. A lot of misinformation was spread in Serbia, Kosovo and elsewhere in the lead up to the fighting in 1998. But when the fighting started it was Serbs responsible for the first massacres of civilians, followed up by further atrocities on both sides.So the Albanians didn't do a good job with your laundry. Way to trivialise an issue with a petty first world problem. Try being an Albanian under the control of the Serbs, then you'll know what problems are.
I have no position on the Serb vs. Albanian angle, but I'm not sure that logic makes sense. Do you have to not be under a specific ethnicity's rule to treat other ethnicities poorly? Do you need your own country to be treated poorly by another ethnicity or treat others poorly? So far as I know, the answer to all of those questions is no.
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The stuff I have heard Bosnian refugees tell of what they were through... It is really quite insane. It also is remarkably consistent. I have talked to quite a number of them, too. I am not going to discuss it here, because "trigger warning" doesn't feel like it comes close.
It was a terrible time. Atrocities were nothing rare. It spoke badly of humanity as a whole.
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I have no position on the Serb vs. Albanian angle, but I'm not sure that logic makes sense. Do you have to not be under a specific ethnicity's rule to treat other ethnicities poorly? Do you need your own country to be treated poorly by another ethnicity or treat others poorly? So far as I know, the answer to all of those questions is no.
Agreed. However, Serbs had some much bigger fish to fry back then. Check out our history, we were quite honorable folk before world war 1. Sadly most of those died in two wars leaving dregs to live on.
The stuff I have heard Bosnian refugees tell of what they were through... It is really quite insane. It also is remarkably consistent. I have talked to quite a number of them, too. I am not going to discuss it here, because "trigger warning" doesn't feel like it comes close.
It was a terrible time. Atrocities were nothing rare. It spoke badly of humanity as a whole.
Oh, I agree. Atrocities were committed by Serbian forces. There is no doubt in that. I find apologists of this to be the worst kind of scum. There is no excuse for that, and we have payed dearly for those crimes. Unfortunately, too many people here still believe that war crimes were only committed by the opposing sides. Call it lack of education, stupidity, hardheadedness or simple unwillingness to take responsibility for one's actions.
But, there are two sides to every coin.
I would like to see some unbiased opinions, or even "other side" opinions about the wars in the Balkans in the 90s.
I am certain that at least some of the information that has been fed to the public in Serbia is an outright lie. Some however I believe to be more true.
So, help me.
I have some Kremlin-funded propaganda on the subject,but it's in russian or,worse,in serb.
My personal position is that NATO intervention happened only because they wanted to do SOMETHING.You see,i'm pretty sure that whatever serbs were doing,it was not worse than Russia's actions in Chechen Republic.And no-one bombed Russia.I also think that whole operation kinda backfired.HARD.
Disclaimer:I am biased as hell.You see,serbs are basically russians.
(up to and including volunteering as SDF during ongoing Crimean crisis.)
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NATO, of course, could intervene in Yugoslavia because they would not be walking into a war with a nuclear power which commands one of the world's most powerful military forces.
Also, the NATO nations were not heavily involved in unpopular Middle-Eastern conflicts at the time.
If a country like the US, UK or France angers Belgrade then all Belgrade can do is drink more, or lie down in a dark room.
NATO, of course, could intervene in Yugoslavia because they would not be walking into a war with a nuclear power which commands one of the world's most powerful military forces.
They could go to Somali)
You do not need to bomb to stone age country in the middle of Europe.|
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NATO, of course, could intervene in Yugoslavia because they would not be walking into a war with a nuclear power which commands one of the world's most powerful military forces.They could go to Somali)
You do not need to bomb to stone age country in the middle of Europe.
Which they pretty much did. They destroyed 80% of our industrial production facilities, a lot of hospitals and other things. Not to mention some 2700 children killed among a larger number of civilian deaths. There were also soldiers and law enforcement deaths.
We did take down an F-16 and an F-117 though.
We did take down an F-16 and an F-117 though.
FAR more than that.Unless you mean we as"my SAM unit"
Also unconfirmed B-2.Which is actually pretty realistic,considering radar bands from which it is defended.|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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(unbiased opinion is a contradiction in terms) :-)
In my reading of the entire Yugoslavia break up, I took away that atrocities happened on all sides (lots of bad blood there) but Western media seemed more biased to paint the Serbs as the 'real bad guys'. The example that stuck in my mind was we heard about all these horrible things in Kosovo prior to the invasion (some of which IIRC were found questionable or false after the fact) but not so much things that happened afterwards (I distinctly remember reading about the sacking of an Eastern orthodox Church and rape of nuns for example.)
(Aside: in the 90's my attitude was "build a wall around Yugoslavia and last man standing wins.")
Last 100 years historically, I know the only death camp outside of Poland/Germany was in Yugoslavia, and that it wasn't run by Serbs. Given the Serbs support in WW II, I am likely biased towards them and thought they got a raw deal in the world press.
(Aside the second: I remember reading an article about a Serbian woman who was a sniper for the Bosnian partisans who went by "Strella" (Arrow) I remember it, because she was/is my age (if she's stil alive) and I found myself wondering how she would adapt in a society that had fought against the Serbs so bloodily. I mean it's not like she could go 'home' to Serbia either. Never been able to find out what happened to her.)
I do find dark humor in Putin using basically what NATO did in Kosovo to justify his invasion of Georgia and now Ukraine. Primarily because I predicted it happening. I hate being right.
Primarily because I predicted it happening. I hate being right.
Err,not Georgia.Ukraine,yes.
But without bombing to stone age.But then,Georgia was basically made an example.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Primarily because I predicted it happening. I hate being right.Err,not Georgia.Ukraine,yes.
But without bombing to stone age.
But then,Georgia was basically made an example.
I meant as in "They're being mistreated, so we have to carve out their section into it's own place."
And yes w/o the mass bombing and littering of DU all over the place.
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We did take down an F-16 and an F-117 though.FAR more than that.Unless you mean we as"my SAM unit"
Also unconfirmed B-2.Which is actually pretty realistic,considering radar bands from which it is defended.
Some other planes too. But those two I can personally confirm, having seen pieces of both in our aeronautics museum near the Nikola Tesla airport.
Also, I've spoken to a U.S. army general some years ago, and he told me that they didn't dare land troops for a ground assault because the predicted casualties would have been in the thousands. Plus, they thought that Milošević would cave after a while, which he did in the end.
Some other planes too. But those two I can personally confirm, having seen pieces of both in our aeronautics museum near the Nikola Tesla airport.
This is what happens when you send planes into more or less acceptable(if outdated)air defence system.
Plus, they thought that Milošević would cave after a while, which he did in the end.
Well,either that or depopulation of the country.Not from direct hits,no.
From destroyed civilian infrastructure.At least russians in .08 TRIED to neutralize only military targets.
predicted casualties would have been in the thousands.
Well,Serbia is not a desert,and serbs are no arabs.
I still can't understand how Iraq,with one of the best armies around,folded so quickly.
I meant as in "They're being mistreated, so we have to carve out their section into it's own place."
I am pretty sure that at least someone in Russia's government at the time said that this whole Kosovo thing WILL backfire.
Maybe even Putin.Self-fulfilling prophecy,anyone?
All I remember about the Balkan conflict in the '90s was peddling socialist newspapers on Thayer Street in Providence behind a table with a sign that read "US/UN/NATO: Bloody Hands Off Serbia!" and getting yelled at by a passing "socialist"-feminist who said I didn't understand dialectics.
All I remember about the Balkan conflict in the '90s was peddling socialist newspapers on Thayer Street in Providence behind a table with a sign that read "US/UN/NATO: Bloody Hands Off Serbia!" and getting yelled at by a passing "socialist"-feminist who said I didn't understand dialectics.
This whole Balkans thing seems really fishy to me.
So,for like eighty years country is all well,good and united,and SUDDENLY there are ethic cleansings.In Slavic country,no less.
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Not that fishy. The only thing really keeping Yugoslavia together was Tito's charisma, and a firm, but gentle grip.
After his death all old hatreds and conflicts began to resurface. Chief among them Serbian - Croatian mutual enmity and christian - muslim conflict.
But a lot of people are pretty certain that outside influences had a big hand in everything, because a distabilized and poor Balkans work much better for them than stable and prosperous.
All I remember about the Balkan conflict in the '90s was peddling socialist newspapers on Thayer Street in Providence behind a table with a sign that read "US/UN/NATO: Bloody Hands Off Serbia!" and getting yelled at by a passing "socialist"-feminist who said I didn't understand dialectics.This whole Balkans thing seems really fishy to me.
So,for like eighty years country is all well,good and united,and SUDDENLY there are ethic cleansings.
In Slavic country,no less.
No expert, but there were quite a few ethnic cleansings in the 1940s: Ustasha vs. Chetniks vs. Partisans and that was just the big playas.
No expert, but there were quite a few ethnic cleansings in the 1940s: Ustasha vs. Chetniks vs. Partisans and that was just the big playas.
No expert also,but didn't Yugoslavia was,like,invaded and split up in forties,which makes it entirely different matter.
Oh wait....
No expert, but there were quite a few ethnic cleansings in the 1940s: Ustasha vs. Chetniks vs. Partisans and that was just the big playas.
No expert also,but didn't Yugoslavia was,like,invaded and split up in forties,which makes it entirely different matter.
Oh wait....
Hey, I'm not the one who said it was all well, good and united for 80 years.
Those weren't based on ethnicity. Different ideologies. Ustashas worked for the germans, Chetniks were loyal to the king an Partisans were communists.
Hold on...Never mind, I can't find the book that I was looking for. Yes, they had different ideologies, but I'm pretty sure the Ustasha didn't limit themselves to killing non-fascists and the Chetniks didn't limit themselves to killing non-monarchists. I'm not going to say anything about the Partisans, 'cuz, you know, commie solidarity.
I'm not going to say anything about the Partisans, 'cuz, you know, commie solidarity.
I am pretty sure that not all partisans were commies,so go ahead.
But then,i somehow forgot that WW2,you know,existed,so what do i know?
Nope. Not saying anything. I've read some anti-commie lefties who wrote about all the nasty things Tito and friends did, but I had a comrade back in the '90s whose father was a Jewish Yugoslav Tito sympathizer who used his position in some WWII US department to supply them with weapons and then returned post-45 (his American wife wouldn't go with him), so, nope, not saying anything.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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it's Wiki, so take it with a grain of salt, but Jassenovac is the camp I was thinking of.
And yes, the accounts I've read show Tito basically kept everyone in check. Perils of leadership based on personality.
(far from an expert, but I'm a bit of a Slavophile, having distant relatives possibly in Poland)*
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The Balkan peninsula has been a more or less continuous state of chaos and strife of one sort or another since the end of the eighteenth century.It's sort of the geopolitical trope namer in English.
Now i know!
And knowing is half the battle^^
Disclaimer:I am biased as hell.You see,serbs are basically russians.
I can't say I'm any expert or really have any knowledge on Serbians, but are you certain Serbs would agree with that?
Hama, I am very carefully not saying that any one group committed the atrocities. Bad crap was done by many different people. I also want to specifically point out that ethnicity is not tied to anything in particular regarding behaviour, especially among the civilians.
There are other things that left traces too. One very relevant event, as I got it told to me: There was a register set up regarding religion, I believe it was done before an election. That register was what was then used to find who should be thrown in the camps. I find that sort of interesting in this era of registers everywhere.
I was in Serbia fairly recently (2010), talking pleasantly with an old gentleman, when some tactless American asked the same question of him. His answer impressed me. He said, "We don't know yet."
Then he elaborated, "In a generation or two, when the hot blood and old enmities have faded, then we can look back with a measure of objectivity, and learn what exactly happened, and why it happened. Until then, we can only look through the lens of our own injust circumstances, or someone else's."
I can't say I'm any expert or really have any knowledge on Serbians, but are you certain Serbs would agree with that?
You see,they are Ortodox Christian Slavs,which makes them russians in my book.Then there is language....and then there is etymology of word serb,which was traced to a lot of things,including "ally".Serbs,of course,will not agree with that,they are serbs.
On the other hand,Poles,being Catholic? Christian Slavs,are not russians.
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I can't say I'm any expert or really have any knowledge on Serbians, but are you certain Serbs would agree with that?You see,they are Ortodox Christian Slavs,which makes them russians in my book.Then there is language....and then there is etymology of word serb,which was traced to a lot of things,including "ally".Serbs,of course,will not agree with that,they are serbs.
On the other hand,Poles,being Catholic? Christian Slavs,are not russians.
Nope. We aren't Russians. Have never been Russians. Our tribes split around 3000 years ago, and while we are Slavs, we most certainly aren't Russians.
Language is pretty similar, I agree.The Balkan peninsula has been a more or less continuous state of chaos and strife of one sort or another since the end of the eighteenth century.
It's sort of the geopolitical trope namer in English.
Not really. There were Balkan wars against the Ottomans in 1912 and 1913, then World War 1, then nothing till World War 2, then nothing till the 90s. Not really constant chaos and strife, but sure...
Hama, I am very carefully not saying that any one group committed the atrocities. Bad crap was done by many different people. I also want to specifically point out that ethnicity is not tied to anything in particular regarding behaviour, especially among the civilians.
There are other things that left traces too. One very relevant event, as I got it told to me: There was a register set up regarding religion, I believe it was done before an election. That register was what was then used to find who should be thrown in the camps. I find that sort of interesting in this era of registers everywhere.
No need for that. Every side did. Some people I know returned from the war with a major case of PTSD and such horror stories that they gave me chills.
Yeah, people took issue when Bosnians (which never was an ethnicity by the way) decided that somehow being muslim was suddenly an ethnicity. But then, people took issue with a lot of things back then. I was pretty young, so the war kinda passed me by.Can we vote on wheter the USA and Europe should be able to break up the soviet block?
What makes you think you have any right to do that?
Our tribes split around 3000 years ago
Which makes us all whatever that tribe was called.
Same religion,language(i can actually understand Serb without additional training)and race.I can't,actually,understand Polish language.
Or Ukrainian,for that matter.
EU and US for starters.
I'm pretty sure that those tomahawks weren't free,yes.
And neither was B-2,because even if it wasn't down,pure amortization must have cost a fortune.To say nothing of F-117.
So, who benefited from a destabilised and poor Balkans?
Not the Balkans?
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EU and US for starters.I'm pretty sure that those tomahawks weren't free,yes.
And neither was B-2,because even if it wasn't down,pure amortization must have cost a fortune.
To say nothing of F-117.
True, but as far as ordinance goes, it is my impression that the US and NATO were pretty much dropping outdated stuff they wanted to get rid of.
it is my impression
And if i manufactured said tomahawks,i'd try to convey that impression!
Because,you see,there is NEVER an option of upgrade existing stock.(like,i don't know,replace a few kilos of electronics)But wait,there is more!
F-117 are somehow not so stealth and awesome,so how about our brand not-yet-existent f-35,for low,low price of gazillion dollarz each?Please scrap your entire fleet of f-117,and we can start.Or,better yet,pay as so we can start,and we scrap your f-117 somewhere in the future.
For a few extra dollarz,of course.