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Deka became my party's nemesis after they confronted her once they put it together that she was likely a member of the Order of the Blue Feather, and was actively making their investigation difficult; and they totally had her killed after saving Osirion.
That said, the Mark of Justice is just a bestow curse but worse. You could have Sebti do it as a one-time thing (she owes the party for saving Wati), and if they get caught again, tough luck, likely with assistance from the Tephu militia. Break Enchantment is *only* a sixth level spell, and should be something the party should be logically able to buy in either Wati (stat block for 7th level spellcasting, which we all know is Sebti) or Tephu (9th level in its stat block).
Speaking of that 9th level casting, the High Priestess of Thoth has beef that her clergy isn't allowed in the Great Library. Perhaps she would be willing to remove the mark if the party were able to copy some tomes or some other esoteric research that is beyond the capability of her 3-acolyte at a time limit that Deku has imposed. See p.65 in the entry for the Houses of Order and Wisdom for inspiration. She's LN, and may give a bit of flak against removing it, but it provides an intriguing way to gain an ally and a sufficient Break Enchantment.
I'm interested in ideas for the High Prestess of Thoth myself.
My game's leader/soul of the group is a Priestss of Ma'at and linked up with Ma'at and Thoth's worshippers.
I'm trying to figure out a good way of expanding on the beef between them and the Nethys church. Right now I'm going with the fact Thoth's group is big about spreading knowledge, regardless of what happens afterward.
Before running this AP I had concerns about the players running off to Sothis once they heard about the heart being located there so I figured out a really nice way to fix the problem. After Nebta-Khufre was killed at the end of book 2 the players went through his notebooks and found references to something that he had been searching for having been stolen from Sothis. I left it really vague so that the players didn't have anything to go off of. They didn't know what it was, where in Sothis it was being held, what Nebta-Khufre wanted it for, how old the notes were, nor when it was stolen. This prevented them from going to Sothis to investigate and later on, in book 3, when they learned about the heart one of the players thought about it and realized that was likely what had been stolen. So now they're aware of it and know that someone out there has it. (They suspect that the Cult of the Forgotten Pharaoh has it but they aren't sure.)
So wait, how do you run Udjebet? She uses her ring to cast basically Alter Self okay that makes sense but then...,
Does she keep her gaze attack in her 'human form' then?
I had her not look at the PCs (her back was to them which she was going through the books) so the gaze attack wasn't a concern.
They let her be, but at one point the rogue snuck back to see if she was still there. With a high perception check the rogue noticed her hair slightly moving, knowledge check let them know the obvious, player put on a blindfold and walked in to talk to her.
My players had unpleasant experiences with the clerics of Nethys right from the start, bleeding over from their experience in the Necropolis. They sought out the temple of Thoth when they heard that there was ancient beef between the two churches because the New God had supplanted the Old. I made the priestess of Thoth an extremely old and powerful cleric, obviously frail but wise and, to the players, almost all knowing. Building on the first book, I made her a little better than the Crocodile, so 15th level. I never bothered to stat her up. Just figured what spells she had access to and that if the party attacked her they all died at their level.
This has ended up being a long term alliance. They are friends with the church of Pharasma and Thoth, which has been helpful to them as they navigate the slave trenches.
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I'm curious how the sand kraken went for people. The sand kraken only exposes tentacles, which aren't part of the kraken for purposes of killing it. You have to dig up a sand kraken to kill it.
But the only treasure here is with the Kraken. Did your parties dig up the kraken and kill it after destroying the tentacles? I can't imagine my party doing that. They might if they succeed at the knowledge check to know what it is—they're pretty civic-minded—but do most parties actually kill the kraken?
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Any suggestions for the clearly-contemplated-but-not-detailed scenario of the party breaking into the library and getting caught?
Here's a bit of an after-action report to help other GMs who may end up in this scenario. Thanks to archmagi1 for the helpful suggestions.
Deka arrested the party and interrogated them. They avoided having the Mask confiscated with some good diplomacy/bluffing. Deka is Lawful and the governor of Tephu so I figured it would not be too hard to convince her that they have legal title to the mask through the Wati Lottery, as long as she did not realize it was connected to the Forgotten Pharaoh. If she caught them a second time she would totally have taken it.
The party went to Wati to get Sebti to remove the marks. She did it but demanded a large donation to the temple on top of the normal spellcasting service charge. The party decided to go kill the dragon from Book 2 to steal her hoard to pay for it, which was an easy way for me to put up this gate without screwing their WBL.
They went back to Tephu. I came up with some quick and dirty social stealth rules for how the players would gradually draw attention if they loitered in Tephu in the open. Rules in spoiler because formatting is hard.
- 1. They would encounter guards as they traveled the streets, a number of times depending on what neighborhoods they were traveling through and how far they were going.
- 2. The guards had been given the party's description and would roll perception to see if they noticed the party. The base odds were quite low and were adjusted depending on how crowded the street was, how close the party would have passed the guards, and whether it was dark out. Those odds could be further reduced by a successful disguise check (rolled in secret). (My party got auto-noticed the first time because a gnome riding a jaguar is pretty conspicuous, but they got the message.)
- 3. If a guard noticed the party, they would approach. The party had a chance to react by getting away or deflecting suspicion -- what skills they could use and the DCs limited only by the players' ingenuity.
- 4. If the party failed to escape or deflect, the guards would attempt an arrest. (Never happened to my party.)
- 5. Every time a guard noticed the party, though, the DCs would increase after a few hours, to represent that word trickled up to Deka that the party had possibly been sighted and then the guards would go on higher alert.
- 6. If the party ever went somewhere and were seen by guards and lingered there too long, a group of soldiers would appear to arrest them OR the Cult would attack them (having overheard from the guards where the party is).
- 7. If they stayed there even longer, Deka would show up personally with a phat entourage and try to arrest them again.
We played this quite loosely and I think it worked well. My players were very happy to spend a lot of time making plans and playing this minigame (the rules of which were hidden from them). They were never interested in approaching Muminofrah, and I think this was a good alternative to the social roleplay that they are supposed to do with her. They never completely screwed up, so they didn't have to kill any guards and Deka never caught them until the end.
Once they finished all of the research, for some resolution I had Deka show up at the last library and try to arrest them. They messed up the social stealth right at the end so there was an easy excuse, but I would have made the encounter happen regardless. After defeating her, the party leaves Tephu and the adventure can continue as written.
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According to p. 62 in Shifting Sands, the city of Tephu has a Lore rating of +6. According to the Game Master's Guide,
A settlement’s lore modifier applies on Diplomacy checks made to gather information and Knowledge checks made using the city’s resources to do research when using a library.
Does this mean players get a +6 on all their research checks while in the Great Library?
The Dark Depository research rules say that it's only possible to reduce its kp below certain thresholds by researching in different sections. Does this mean that it takes at least four rolls (probably four days) to fully research the library, no matter what? Or should hitting a threshold early mean they still have time? And if they clear the whole place before doing any researching, can they clear it in a single check (presuming really good rolls)?
Related: I have six PCs, and they've been forming two teams of three for research - one primary and two assistants. I've been letting them add their progress from these two "attacks", but that's led to them doing 15~20 points per research period, which feels fast to me. Is this about the intended speed, or are we doing it wrong?
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The Dark Depository research rules say that it's only possible to reduce its kp below certain thresholds by researching in different sections. Does this mean that it takes at least four rolls (probably four days) to fully research the library, no matter what? Or should hitting a threshold early mean they still have time? And if they clear the whole place before doing any researching, can they clear it in a single check (presuming really good rolls)?
A research roll takes a day. There's a maximum they can get to in a certain area, so that will be their limit for the day. If the most they can reduce kp in a given chamber of books is 5 and they roll 20 kp, they don't instantly know they've exhausted that resource. They are still looking for additional clues, tracking down other books, until they realize they've exhausted every possibility.
I always told my group when they'd hit the limit, of course, but changed the description based on how well they rolled. If they blew past the limit, then they've explored virtually every tome in there. If they just barely hit it, they found a hint in one of the last books that they examined that pointed toward the next resource.
Related: I have six PCs, and they've been forming two teams of three for research - one primary and two assistants. I've been letting them add their progress from these two "attacks", but that's led to them doing 15~20 points per research period, which feels fast to me. Is this about the intended speed, or are we doing it wrong?
It's hard to know, bu that seems possible if they're both bards with decent intelligence scores. A pair of bards will average 13 points + probably 6 or 8 from intelligence. A wizard is going to typically get 9 or 10 kp per day, I think.
My answer to "what is the Slave Trenches of Hakotep" question would be something like this: (Note, while I'm running this AP, it's been a while since we sat down, so my grasp of the fine details are slim at the moment
DC 25 - An ancient ruin cut into the desert earth far to the west, presumed to be part of a burial for a pharaoh long since forgotten. While there has been numerous speculative works on their meaning, no reputable scholar has been able to acquire any evidence to match any of the theories presented. Not even the name has been sourced definitively, as no Pharaoh of that name exists in any historical record.
DC: Nat 20 + Mod + Full Party of Assists x 2 + 10 = "Dude, this may be important later, when you've gained 4 to 8 levels, but it isn't really now. Besides, the deep desert is deadly. Do you think you are prepared to venture out there at your current level? I don't."
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Ah, got it. First, maps on Google and the name of the AP is meta-information that the PCs don't know. In general, I don't give knowledge checks based on things like that.
By the end of book 2, they may be researching the name of Hakotep. The cartouches in the Slave Trenches are actually some of the only known references to Hakotep. Per the AP,
It’s believed that Hakotep I ruled Osirion as pharaoh some time in the distant past, but virtually all records of his rule have been lost. His name survives only in cartouches found in a ancient network of earthworks now known as the Slave Trenches of Hakotep.
So it's probably not that high a DC to know the Slave Trenches exist—but no one knows who Hakotep I was or what the trenches were for.
So the Slave Trenches aren't really secret, they just don't seem to have a purpose that anyone is aware. I think Roonfizzle's DC sounds about right for that.
So, the assasins with their ranged death attacks, what have people run with, how has it gone?
I'm split between "They just get ranged death attacks because that's obviously how they're statted", them giving up a feat or something to 'qualify' for it in a balanced way, or seeing if I can stat out a balanced way to swap them for a single Slayer which does have the ranged Death Attack.
@draxar - Mine are almost there too, and Slayer seems like a good idea! Although with little extra time to prep I will probably run it as "They just get ranged death attacks' method.
The main thing with Slayer is they don't get their death attacks until 10th level. The three nameless assasins are level 7, a CR10 encounter total. So it could either be a single level 10 Slayer with something else to bump him up.. but his total sneak will be much lower, and isn't the 'bunch of attackers' thing, it feels more personal, less assasins for hire.
So I might go with 'they just get it ranged' or I might stat up a simple Unchained Rogue build that's assassination focused, and have three of those.
I'm the GM, and we're about to finish Book 2, and I'm excited for Shifting Sands.
I have a party of all alchemists (various archetypes to hit all the party niches). They're all playing brothers of the same family. This has posed some fun and interesting challenges. Many fights have been a breeze (because of bombs), and other fights have been challenges (also because of bombs). It's crazy, but we're all having fun.
What are some of the challenges you faced with Shifting Sands regarding encounters or situations in the book? Like the race, and the libraries and all that? Any good tips?
Thanks!
Question - how did people find the 'Leaving Tephu' encounter, and how many Cultists did you have present? Am worried that Khabekh-shu + 6 Cultists + hieracosphinx is a bit much, but the PCs haven't looked into the Cult in the city at all.
My players have had the encounter with the cultists on the Chariot Race, but not done any follow up on that at all.
They've not particularly interacted with Khabekh-shu - he's in disguise on the boat when they are and listening in a bit, but from a distance. They're not actively socialising/investigating there (but also to be fair to them, I'm not really playing up those encounters; mostly informational/'cutscene').
This plus the fact the only scripted encounters with the Cultists are in the Chariot Race, at the moment they're going to face all of 'em - am wondering if that's going to be a bit much, or if it'll be fine?
Think they'll need one more 'permission slip' to get in, rather than have them do some entertaining, get them to go hunt something and have some of the cultists join in there? With a 'They'll run away' thing, but both if some of them drop, that makes the final fight fairer, and might prompt active investigation from the PCs before that.
I'm the GM, and we're about to finish Book 2, and I'm excited for Shifting Sands.
I have a party of all alchemists (various archetypes to hit all the party niches). They're all playing brothers of the same family. This has posed some fun and interesting challenges. Many fights have been a breeze (because of bombs), and other fights have been challenges (also because of bombs). It's crazy, but we're all having fun.
What are some of the challenges you faced with Shifting Sands regarding encounters or situations in the book? Like the race, and the libraries and all that? Any good tips?
Thanks!
Rewriting Muminofrah into being less of a "Here's yet another fat character who's lusty as an extension of their inability to control themselves." fatphobic stereotype. Went for having her fat but strong and powerful, removing the elements that seemed gratuitous and concentrating on her as a politician - she sees the PCs as some celebrities who are a useful means to extra visibility for herself; romance might happen if a PC either initiated or suggested interest in such, but still would be a political move - I basically ignored all the elements where she has a particular paramour.
My players lost the Chariot race; they played it too safe (but also rolled quite badly; not sure they'd have done better going risky). Suspect that one may be partly based on if you have someone with enough points in enough of the different skills.
Beyond that... there's more details in some other posts, but there's a few places where there's attacks that depend on specific rules that don't apply - sniper assasins with Death Attacks that are Melee. Stand Still being used to keep someone from getting inside spear reach... when actually it only works within 5 foot.
And for more on one example on this:
@draxar - Mine are almost there too, and Slayer seems like a good idea! Although with little extra time to prep I will probably run it as "They just get ranged death attacks' method.The main thing with Slayer is they don't get their death attacks until 10th level. The three nameless assasins are level 7, a CR10 encounter total. So it could either be a single level 10 Slayer with something else to bump him up.. but his total sneak will be much lower, and isn't the 'bunch of attackers' thing, it feels more personal, less assasins for hire.
So I might go with 'they just get it ranged' or I might stat up a simple Unchained Rogue build that's assassination focused, and have three of those.
I spotted there's actually a few Slayer things that work, and at a lower level. No Death Attack, partly because it needs a higher level for a Slayer, but also because the minimum DC would be 18 (Level / 2, plus 3 for studied target) compared to the 13 of the 'as written' Assasins, and that kind of 'Save or die!' seems a bit too cruel.
So I've decided to go for something still pretty nasty, pretty dangerous, quite 'assassin' approach, but which works at range, and is potentially deadly without being 'thud, dead' - the assassins have Wyvern poison, Slayers can make their poison more deadly by 'concentrating' on a studied target, and Sniper slayers can do Sneak Attack and other bonus damage on anyone unaware of them within their 1st range increment. So that means that the attack won't start at 40ft, it'll start further out, with a pair of poisoned crosbow bolts thudding into a PC, whilst the slayer scurries away down to join the other two.
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I'm really having trouble understanding the False Ceiling in area E5 of the Vault of Hidden Wisdom.
For some reason my brain cannot wrap itself around how this works mechanically... Where exactly is the ceiling? Is it just over the part with the pillars and gates? Where do the Lynxes fall? Into the caged part? Does the ceiling only break if you're inside that part? How do you avoid the falling rocks if it is? What is the ceiling like outside the pillar/gate area? Is it the same as everywhere else? How does the ceiling hold in the rocks and lynxes? Is it convex or concave?
I'm just really struggling with how to describe this to my party and they already hate this book so much that I just am not sure what to do.
Thanks!
I have found that with traps in APs, that I just need to go with the "spirit" of the trap and not try to nail down all the mechanics perfectly. Basically whatever the author envisioned and what the developer put into print and what the cartographer put on the map oftentimes conflict to some extent. So just adjust the printed description to what makes sense to you.
The gist is that if they notice something is up with the false ceiling and mess with it they get a bunch of rubble and lynxes falling on them within the white circle. I think of it as 2 upsidedown soup bowls stacked on top of each other. the space between them holds rubble and lynxes.
Also, if your players are hating this, then they may not enjoy the rest of the AP, there are ALOT of traps all the way through and they all will need some adjustment by the gm to have them make sense.
My answer to "what is the Slave Trenches of Hakotep" question would be something like this: (Note, while I'm running this AP, it's been a while since we sat down, so my grasp of the fine details are slim at the moment
DC 25 - An ancient ruin cut into the desert earth far to the west, presumed to be part of a burial for a pharaoh long since forgotten. While there has been numerous speculative works on their meaning, no reputable scholar has been able to acquire any evidence to match any of the theories presented. Not even the name has been sourced definitively, as no Pharaoh of that name exists in any historical record.
DC: Nat 20 + Mod + Full Party of Assists x 2 + 10 = "Dude, this may be important later, when you've gained 4 to 8 levels, but it isn't really now. Besides, the deep desert is deadly. Do you think you are prepared to venture out there at your current level? I don't."
Hakotep is specifically known as Hakotep I, which presumably means there were other Hakoteps. The other way to go is that anything under DC 25 only tells the players that there were fifteen Hakoteps who left various statues and palaces across Osirion, and they have no idea if it's related to the Sky Pharaoh or ways to confirm it. A DC 25 tells them that nobody knows its purpose, but caravans and gnoll tribes famously avoid the site because it has a bad reputation.
Rewriting Muminofrah into being less of a "Here's yet another fat character who's lusty as an extension of their inability to control themselves." fatphobic stereotype. Went for having her fat but strong and powerful, removing the elements that seemed gratuitous and concentrating on her as a politician - she sees the PCs as some celebrities who are a useful means to extra visibility for herself; romance might happen if a PC either initiated or suggested interest in such, but still would be a political move - I basically ignored all the elements where she has a particular paramour.
I was thinking of doing the same when my party gets to Book Two, with the added caveat that she's much smarter than as-written and is actually using her flamboyant public persona so that her henchman, to all outward appearances a foppish butler who's actually a Risen Guard, can covertly test the waters of the local nobility for their loyalty. If my party play their cards right, they could frame their work as uncovering evidence that the Haty-a is hiding things about herself from the state that would have disqualified her from consideration. I can't imagine the Ruby Prince being happy to find out his duly appointed representative is a member of an infamous cult, or that she's personally intervening to screw over adventurers who saved Wati.
Failing to Stand Still
So, the 'Slayer Assasins' worked well - pretty effective, especially with full BAB + studied target, the ability to make their Sneak Attacks within their first Range Increment, buff the poison DCs. But also it was quite nice to have 'Lots of threat' without 'Save or die'
Thus I'm going to do another restat where the book has got it wrong, this time on Jamirah because of "she uses her Stand Still feat to prevent opponents from getting within her longspear’s reach" - when it doesn't work that way!
I don't want to do a heavy restat of her. I also don't want to try too heavily to work out what I should and shouldn't take out - I can see some stuff like 'Silent spell' likely wouldn't be used in this, but makes sense given her background/style. However, she's got a Cruel Weapon, Shatter Defences and... the only way she can trigger that is a full round action Dazzling Display- which seems a bit limited for a CR12 boss given what's available at her level. Options...
[u]Cornugon Smash:[/u] Free Action Intimidate on people I Power Attack. However, if I'm using Stunning Assault, that's a lot of penalty.
[u]Violent Display:[/u] Immediate Action Dazzling Display on Sneak or Critical with Focus weapons - and I'd hope to be Sneaking a chunk. Downside is that it's listed as 'available to weretigers, weretiger-kin and those who associate with these creatures.' Yeah, I'm the GM, but I run a fairly harsh and 'by the book' game. I'm thinking I could possibly allow this because she's a violent shapeshifter in a way that kinda fits. But I'm unsure if it's the best - it is simple though.
[u]Hero's Display:[/u] Another 'Dazzling display-alike' but more complicated (at the cost of more prereqs). Take Hero's Display (Performance Combat Check, and then essentially a Dazzling Display-esque AoE intimidate, for a Swift Action. Requires another feat (Performing Combatant) - give up Rogue Talent Reslience ('cause 8 HP ain't going to change much...) for Combat Trick for that, and 11 ranks of Fly for 11 Ranks of Fly for Performance. Complicated, but feels kinda appropriate?
[u]Frightening Ambush:[/u] Single target Intimidate as a free action. Downside that I don't get to scare the rest of the party whilst I'm whacking one, and get them ready to be hit harder later. Upside - simple, one feat, no extra prereqs or anything else like that.
[u]Dreadful Carnage:[/u] Too many prereqs, too high a BAB so I'd have to work out when she takes it compared to other stuff - the other things are all fairly low level, so I'm much less worried about them.
Thoughts/suggestions?
I was intrigued by the Udjebet encounter and all the possibilities that could come from it. Is the Uraeus Ring that she is looking for supposed to play some role later on in the AP or is this meant more as a side-trek that left up to the GM's discretion to explore?The uraeus ring does not appear later in the AP; it is a plot hook for the GM to play with or not.
So one of my players in Mummy's Mask got obsessed with the "Ring of Uraeus", divining after it, etc, through the end of the campaign. That character then transferred over to Slumbering Tsar AP, and *finally* got the ring, so this is what I did for it.
Uraeus Ring - CL 20th - Minor Artifact
This legendary ring grants dominion over serpents and venom.
It grants a +5 insight bonus to saving throws vs poison, and also acts as a greater ring of inner fortitude reducing ability damage or temporary penalties by 6 points and reduces ability drain by 3 points, from poison effects only.
At will, the bearer can use dominate monster (DC 26) on any serpent or snake.
Three times per day the bearer can cast spew a 30-foot line of stinging poison, a creature in the area of effect can avoid the poison with a successful DC 24 Reflex save. On a failed save, a creature is blinded and suffers 4 points of dexterity damage each round for 8 rounds. Each round at the end of its turn, an affected creature may attempt a DC 24 Fortitude save to end the blindness and prevent the dexterity damage.
The wearer is also under a constant toxic blood spell (DC 24).
My group has reached the great library and begun research.
The Lore oracle in the group is super crushing the research with +20 to his knowledge:history check from Focused Trance. His first roll was a total of 51.
Is this a case where I just say, "Congratulations, you brought the right character archetype to this challenge,"? I'm okay with that; I just want to know if I'm missing some reason Focused Trance doesn't work on knowledge checks for research.
Well it takes all day, sure.
And then comes the time for the Knowledge: history check, oracle goes into the trance, comes out and makes the intelligence check with a +20 circumstances bonus.
I can even imagine the person spending the hours looking all over the library, and then using the trance to let his or her brain flash back over everything seen and compute the information.
I somewhat prefer it not to work, but it seems like it does. Unless somewhere it says the length of time rules out using focused trance?
"Focused Trance (Ex): You can enter a deep meditation, blocking out visual and auditory stimuli and allowing you to concentrate on a single problem, philosophical issue, or memory. This trance lasts 1d6 rounds, during which time you can only take move actions. During this period, you gain a bonus equal to your level on all saves against sonic effects and gaze attacks. When you come out of your trance, you may make a single Intelligence-based skill check with a +20 circumstance bonus. You may enter your focused trance a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier."
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Yes, I read it. You can run it however you want. But there is no way I'd consider looking over a few hundred books in a library and trying to trace information from one to another, evaluating indexes, reconstructing missing passages, etc. as "a single problem, issue, or memory."
In the grand scheme of things, it's not important. They're supposed to research everything. If you let them do it faster it doesn't really affect things. But it's not how I'd run it. I only allowed them to use abilities that can be active the entire duration of the research.
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I can even imagine the person spending the hours looking all over the library, and then using the trance to let his or her brain flash back over everything seen and compute the information.
I somewhat prefer it not to work, but it seems like it does. Unless somewhere it says the length of time rules out using focused trance?
If you want to allow it to work, then let it. One of my players were specced out for research and it was fine. (Kind of boring because, really, what fun is overcoming a challenge if it's not, you know, a challenge? But that's a whole other conversation regarding Pathfinder and building effective characters)
If you don't want it to then compare it to other similar things. Research is 8 hours of work represented by a single roll to show how productive you were throughout the entire day. Meditating for 1-6 rounds of that 8 hours shouldn't provide a bonus. (As a comparison, if someone needs to make a save versus a disease once per day in my game getting Guidance cast on them right before the roll doesn't do anything because the roll is an accumulation of the body fighting the disease for 24 hours).
I view it as you're spending the day combing through books, cross-referencing information with other books, finding references then needing to find other books based off of that.... it's not reading everything in the library and then figuring out how it all ties in together.
That all being said, research taking less time doesn't impact the game so why not let the player use a god-given power in order to connect the dots faster? Thankfully most (all?) of the libraries have different sections that only get unlocked after getting to a certain research threshold. (If I'm remembering right, that is.... I seem to remember at least the first and last one having that.)
I'm grateful for the thoughts. I realize I get to choose, but, you know players, they like explanations on rule interpretations. It helps when I can say "these smart DMs I chatted with said..." So thank you.
One of the most helpful things you've now guided me to see is "single problem, philosophical issue, or memory". That's something solid to lean on arguing against applying the ability to research.
At the same time, two tv shows I'm thinking of for imagining how focused trance might look include Psyche and Limitless. In both cases their brains retroactively sift through the unconscious perceptions to put answers together.
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I'd allow it. Remember they're just getting a bonus on the knowledge points roll for every 5 they exceed the DC:
Succeeding at a Research check reduces a library’s knowledge points, similar to dealing damage to a creature’s hit points. As its knowledge points decrease, a library reveals its secrets. Characters learn information when a library’s knowledge points reach various research thresholds, as detailed in each library’s stat block. The amount of knowledge points reduced on a successful Research check depends on the nature of the primary researcher and the type of library. It is generally a reflection of the character’s training and Intelligence score, represented by a die roll modified by the character’s ability modifier (see Research by Expertise, below).In addition to these base amounts, for every 5 by which a Research check exceeds the library’s Complexity rating, the library’s knowledge points are reduced by 1 additional point. Rolling a natural 20 on a Research check acts like a critical threat. If the researcher confirms the critical hit by succeeding at a second Research check with all the same modifiers (this takes no additional time), the resulting knowledge point reduction is doubled. Conversely, rolling a natural 1 on a Research check automatically results in failure, and the library’s knowledge points increase by 1/4 of the library’s maximum knowledge points as the library’s complexity causes a researcher to follow a wrong avenue of investigation.
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Regarding the NPC Muminofrah, I'd like to commend some folks here for being sensitive to "fatphobic" stereotypes and concerns, but also invite a different way of thinking about her.
I love the character. She is full figured, self-confident, self-consciously spoiled, fun-loving, and brilliant. She has been given a part usually reserved for boring skinny chicks and has made it awesome. She is lusty and quirky from a love of life and the opportunities of privilege and choice, not remotely because of personality weakness or lack of self control.
I have given her Perform: Dance as this expression wonderfully suits what I see in her, and emphasizes that, while curvy, she is tremendously fit. I had her perform a bit of aerial silk dance on her way up a tower to start the chariot race which went over very well.
It's also important to realize that there's the strong but self-focused Muminofrah she shows on the surface which makes her opponents think they understand her and then an even stronger, canny political strategist beneath that, taking advantage of the cliche misperceptions and underestimations.
Making things even better, my group has a player character for whom she is the perfect foil.
My players love every time she appears, sometimes for comedy, but also for fun concern about her capriciousness, and then also deep respect for what they realize to be an exceptional astuteness behind it all. She has added a sense that the entire adventure path plot has greater depth.
I find her to be the very opposite of shaming or cliche, and one of the strongest, overall entertaining NPCs of all time.
My group is working through the various Tephu libraries. They are kind of wondering why they work for official permission, yet go in to have traps go off on them and monsters attack.
At the same time, I'm seeing treasure in the Dark Depository, such as scrolls. How is it that they can just take those items? And if they can take those items, can they take whatever they want, such as the Scrolls of Inquiry or some of the key scraps of evidence? This seems like it rewards the characters who are fine with ransacking the place.
I'm working on my own curator standard wording warnings, disclaimers, and permissions, but I'm curious what others may have said to their players/player characters about some of these things.
It's been awhile so my memory could be a little off, but I thought the same thing. Some of the reasons listed in the book made sense, others were too flimsy for me. I changed it so that the of the denizens in the libraries that had legit reasons to attack most anyone that came in did so. I made it so that those that didn't have a good reason to attack everyone (Invisible Stalkers are an example I remember) didn't attack the characters unless they were trying to remove something from the library.
That also had the added benefit of the players getting in and thinking it was all fine and that there wasn't any defenders / security.
Obviously I'm playing through this module years after most have moved on. Thanks to those indulging me.
My group just completed the Dark Depository. I was worried they were going to groan at the idea of yet another library they need to go to, but some divinations had hinted at this and they are very excited about the puzzle to find the Vault of Hidden Wisdom. Someone remembered the model and they're feeling very pleased with themselves.
My question is looking ahead a bit to the desert and the thriae hive. 2 questions.
1: M3 of the hive reads "A thriae dancer and four thriae soldiers inhabit these chambers." Is that TOTAL or in each M3 chamber (there are 4 chambers labeled M3)? Obviously there is only one Xerippe.
It does also say "Most of these rooms are now empty..."
If it is just one that is occupied, it would have been nice to have it be labelled M3a or something.
2: Thriae "workers". Reading about the thriae here and elsewhere, it sometimes refers to workers as if they are a separate type of thriae (perhaps the "commoners" of the bee people). For example, the M3 room says "These chambers are the living quarters for the hive's workers, soldiers, dancers, and seers."
Yet there are no stats for "workers" anywhere that I can find and I know the other types tend to have secondary jobs, so maybe they are the workers. It's unclear to me.
I'm mostly just curious, and want to know how many to describe.
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I'm only one book ahead of you. Although I'm now converting the rest of the AP to 2e.
Based on CR, that's the total number in all of M3. I just placed them in one room, I think. (It didn't really matter. Someone in my party spoke Sylvan, and understood the thriae shouting that the invaders had returned. They talked to them.)
I assumed most/all of the workers had been slain. I read it as no one other than the thriae described were left in these rooms.
I'm curious how this played out for other groups.
The heroes head out from Tephu for the Parched Lands. They're most likely on the river 12 days.
Then it's about 45 miles from Ipeq to get to the starting point on the map. It might be shorter from where they get off the boat and follow the tributary, but I'm guessing it's close to the same distance. That's about 4 hexes. Granting it to be the fastest-to-traverse terrain of plains, travel at average movement 30, that will be 20 hours. Would you call that two days of travel? A little faster if everyone has a camel or other mount, say a day and a half.
You've arrived in the Parched Lands!
Most likely they immediately fight the slaver gnolls and free the slaves. It seems like those people are really going to need an escort to Ipeq, unless the characters just point and say, "Good luck". The freed slaves are on foot, so it's at least two days in ideal conditions to Ipeq, then turn around again taking another 1.5 to 2 days to get back to the starting point.
There's not *really* a time crunch here, but the players have clues that the Cult is ahead of them in Chisisek's Tomb; it will feel like they are pressed for time. I'm guessing my group's characters will suck up the cost of being good and do right by the freed slaves, but it's probably going to be a pacing/morale hit to the players. This will add to them trying to explore as little of the exploration area as possible. Divinations will flow. They'll guess that the tomb is on the far side of the map (so I'll probably give them a larger hex page).
I'm curious 1) If I've missed anything major in understanding the timing and 2) whether other groups escorted the slaves and how that went. And 3) any suggestions about pacing the exploration. Thanks in advance.
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I really don't remember what my group did. Since the slaves are described as captured "from isolated villages and nomadic groups in the Osirion Desert" I probably played them as pretty competent and better at traversing the desert than the PCs. They didn't want to go to Ipeq—they want to head back into the desert.
My players didn't metagame and were pretty thorough in searching the desert to find the tomb. If you think your players will, I'd just move it somewhere else. I wouldn't add too many hexes to the north since book 4 continues north from the tomb and you don't want to create a huge gap between where book 3 ends and book 4's encounter areas start.
1: M3 of the hive reads "A thriae dancer and four thriae soldiers inhabit these chambers." Is that TOTAL or in each M3 chamber (there are 4 chambers labeled M3)? Obviously there is only one Xerippe.
It does also say "Most of these rooms are now empty..."
If it is just one that is occupied, it would have been nice to have it be labelled M3a or something.
I read it as a total of one dancer and four soldiers occupy all of M3.
Nearly everyone in the hive has been killed so there should be almost no one left.2: Thriae "workers". Reading about the thriae here and elsewhere, it sometimes refers to workers as if they are a separate type of thriae (perhaps the "commoners" of the bee people). For example, the M3 room says "These chambers are the living quarters for the hive's workers, soldiers, dancers, and seers."
Yet there are no stats for "workers" anywhere that I can find and I know the other types tend to have secondary jobs, so maybe they are the workers. It's unclear to me.
I'd assume the 'workers' are a commoner. Adding in a small handful of commoners isn't a bad idea to show that the hive isn't screwed, but they're non-combatants if the group comes in aggressive. (Have them cower or run away or something, depending on the groups actions.)
...That's about 4 hexes... Would you call that two days of travel? A little faster if everyone has a camel or other mount, say a day and a half.
Something like that, yeah.
It seems like those people are really going to need an escort to Ipeq, unless the characters just point and say, "Good luck". The freed slaves are on foot, so it's at least two days in ideal conditions to Ipeq, then turn around again taking another 1.5 to 2 days to get back to the starting point.
There's not *really* a time crunch here, but the players have clues that the Cult is ahead of them in Chisisek's Tomb; it will feel like they are pressed for time. I'm guessing my group's characters will suck up the cost of being good and do right by the freed slaves, but it's probably going to be a pacing/morale hit to the players. This will add to them trying to explore as little of the exploration area as possible. Divinations will flow. They'll guess that the tomb is on the far side of the map (so I'll probably give them a larger hex page).
I'm curious 1) If I've missed anything major in understanding the timing and 2) whether other groups escorted the slaves and how that went. And 3) any suggestions about pacing the exploration. Thanks in advance.
I used the map from the next book as it shows the area in this one as well as the next, that way if the players went too far north they didn't hit the edge of the map and therefore know the area they had to explore.
As for going back to Ipeq or not, I don't remember what my group did. But, as TomParker said, the captured nomads would know how to survive in the desert. A group giving them some supplies makes perfect sense. So does them bringing them to a settlement though. The players won't realize it, but taking extra time won't make a difference. But the fact that they THINK it might can give the chance of some role-playing if some people want to bring the freed slaves back to Ipeq and others are worried about the cult getting too far ahead of them.
They freed Tetisurah, which was very nice of them.
Did they just unknowingly sacrifice all of Chisisek's module-finale treasure? It seems like Tetisurah will not be too keen on allowing them to march off with the loot.
I know she offers them her pectoral, but it would be a steep price to pay - including, I believe, 2 module-unique items - for opting to rescue her. Plus missing out on fighting two creatures, each with module-specific art!
They would still want to get all the way into the pyramid to learn information, but I'm wondering if Tetisurah would say, "Yes, do that. Incidentally, make sure you don't damage the golems."
Maybe that adds an interesting challenge.
[And then they would learn the information is reiteration of things they already know, but I can work with that.]
I can get treasure to the party in other ways; I'm even considering having Tetisurah **loan** Chisisek treasure to the group for the time it takes them to recover the body.
I'm just curious how other DM's elected to navigate this.
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I considered her priority to be the recovery of Chisisek's body. So I would have allowed them to take treasure once they agreed to recover the body. But I think my group chose not to, leaving the tomb intact as much as possible.
It's definitely a challenge. I don't want to teach my players that they should kill everything just for the sweet loot, so I usually try to justify them getting it in cases like this. But my groups tend to have a pretty heroic mindset from the outset anyway.
Opinions on how I'm leaning towards running my group taking on Jamirah for the second time requested!
Short version - pretty much the rest of the canyon bar the Pyramid cleared out by the party, so she's found in between the two golems rather than waiting at the top of the bridges (when the party will likely just all fly up).
So, due to a combination of excessive caution from their caster and others after her summon fizzled against Jamirah's anti-summoning shield, and their paladin flying in against the last pair of cultists alone, whilst the rest of the party was slowly clambering around the crawl, the party ended up separated, strung out and not doing well when Jamirah attacked as the last cultist fell (literally!)
With one party member down, another hard-pressed, the paladin on single-digit hitpoints, and the Arcanist having only just reached the range of her most damaging spells, between sessions the Paladin asked me if he could self-sacrifice to let the party get out.
I noted to him that it wasn't a "You're definitely all going to die here" but accepted that it really wasn't going well for them. And allowed him it.
He's made a soulbound summoner (to not tread on the Arcanist's toes, as she's an Occultist, big on Summon X), and I've allowed him to be found close by - seeking the wisdom of the Sphinx.
But there's two things. Firstly, they seem to be working on the assumption that they'll find Jamirah in basically the 'same place' as they found her last time, in terms of their tactics. (To be fair, they can't know more of the canyon than they've seen - but if she's out of minions, and knows they can fly, will she stay there?
Secondly, since every other time the party has lost someone, they've taken their time, licked their wounds, gone back to town, bought stuff, etc, etc - taken quite a while - I think she'd go "I need to hurry up and solve this puzzle!" - head into the pyramid, Vanish past the Golem, and be studying the Clockwork Golem in its wall state (and the room its in) when they arrive the next day.
She still would rather someone else does the killing for her - so she'll let the Stone Golem fight the party. But she'll join in either after it falls, or when the party opens the secret door.
Is that being too mean? Is there a better place approach to this one?
I've already rolled out the Stone Golem getting one punch in on her whilst invisible - it hit, she took some damage. The party will see blood on its fist, if I go with that.
I'm curious how this played out for other groups.
The heroes head out from Tephu for the Parched Lands. They're most likely on the river 12 days.
Then it's about 45 miles from Ipeq to get to the starting point on the map. It might be shorter from where they get off the boat and follow the tributary, but I'm guessing it's close to the same distance. That's about 4 hexes. Granting it to be the fastest-to-traverse terrain of plains, travel at average movement 30, that will be 20 hours. Would you call that two days of travel? A little faster if everyone has a camel or other mount, say a day and a half.You've arrived in the Parched Lands!
Most likely they immediately fight the slaver gnolls and free the slaves. It seems like those people are really going to need an escort to Ipeq, unless the characters just point and say, "Good luck". The freed slaves are on foot, so it's at least two days in ideal conditions to Ipeq, then turn around again taking another 1.5 to 2 days to get back to the starting point.
There's not *really* a time crunch here, but the players have clues that the Cult is ahead of them in Chisisek's Tomb; it will feel like they are pressed for time. I'm guessing my group's characters will suck up the cost of being good and do right by the freed slaves, but it's probably going to be a pacing/morale hit to the players. This will add to them trying to explore as little of the exploration area as possible. Divinations will flow. They'll guess that the tomb is on the far side of the map (so I'll probably give them a larger hex page).
I'm curious 1) If I've missed anything major in understanding the timing and 2) whether other groups escorted the slaves and how that went. And 3) any suggestions about pacing the exploration. Thanks in advance.
The one relevant thing for timing here was retraining. Because she knew details about the party from Khabekh-shu passing her information, I had her actually retrain some of her spells to ones relevant to the party. Some then became irrelevant due to a later death, but the anti-summoning shield was, and the Protection from Good might have been, if the Occultist hadn't sent an Air Elemental (and might be again inside).
So the party taking a reasonable whilst to explore some places, and having two relativelyt slow folks (heavy armour) meant she definitely had the time to retrain a few spells.
Dealing with Deka An-Keret and the Sacrosanct Order of the Blue Feather feel way more wall'ish than it should be, one would think that with some info and the Mask they might be a bit more willing to "help" (as long as the PCs are the ones taking the risks).
Dealing with Deka An-Keret and the Sacrosanct Order of the Blue Feather feel way more wall'ish than it should be, one would think that with some info and the Mask they might be a bit more willing to "help" (as long as the PCs are the ones taking the risks).
From a pure simulation point of view? Perhaps, though I can see it both ways - that their priority is keeping their secret over everything else. (Also, are your players likely to give up the Mask? Mine wouldn't be!)
But from a game point of view, it makes fills the task of spreading out the adventure, giving you some chat, politics, and "Go do this!" encounters like the Chariot Race between the dungeon-crawls and reasearch-roll-repetition of the libraries.
And it makes enough sense. Stories need variety, different beats at different moments.
It's like the point in the film 1917, where the main character stumbles exhaustedly through the forest, having been through utter hell, almost to his goal. And sees a bunch of soldiers of the force he's there to bring a message to, all sitting round in a circle as one of them sings a calming song with a beautiful voice for a minute or two.
You can argue that he's driven enough, been through enough that he should keep going, should demand of one of the people there the info he needs.
Instead, he slumps against a tree and listens, and asks his question when the song ends. Because you, the audience, need that moment to catch your breath, before he plunges into the next bit. (And because there's enough justification - if there are people here, then that means the attack hasn't started, he's just so exhausted he needs at least a brief rest, etc.
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I think I started my group in the middle of the southern edge.
I don't think it really matters. I'd probably still start them at the bottom right corner if they went overland but you could start them anywhere on the eastern edge. Just be aware that the encounters get harder as they move north, and they may miss out on more loot if they end up bypassing the southern half of the map.