Sorry, I misread your post. I plead the fact that it's before 7am here and I'm running on about 4 hours of sleep, heh.
There's two ways to interpret that.
No, there aren't. I don't find your wording an improvement, at all.
Thanks, this is exactly what I am trying to say.I think the best interpretation is to allow them to adjust their attack to have a 5 ft step in it. And, if the character has movement left, to continue their movement. The issue will still exist when people approach each other using 5 ft steps (like you would in boxing) but I'll just deal. My players aren't interested in using this strat anyway. They consider it cheating.
Here is the thing. You are already allowed to take a 5' step as part of a full attack (no new rules needed). This shows that your theoretical invincible defender using readied actions doesn't actually work. It might buy the defender a round or two till their opponent catches on, but unless the attacker is mindless in its tactics they can foil it, and actually make the defenders position worse then if they'd not used this tactic to begin with.
Here is the thing. You are already allowed to take a 5' step as part of a full attack (no new rules needed). This shows that your theoretical invincible defender using readied actions doesn't actually work. It might buy the defender a round or two till their opponent catches on, but unless the attacker is mindless in its tactics they can foil it, and actually make the defenders position worse then if they'd not used this tactic to begin with.
Thanks, this is exactly what I am trying to say.I think the best interpretation is to allow them to adjust their attack to have a 5 ft step in it. And, if the character has movement left, to continue their movement. The issue will still exist when people approach each other using 5 ft steps (like you would in boxing) but I'll just deal. My players aren't interested in using this strat anyway. They consider it cheating.
Also importantly (and repeatedly), this hypothetical "5-foot step invincibility" can be negated by a crossbow, or a longbow, or a thrown dagger, or a breath weapon, or a spell - any one of a thousand different ranged options that are available to casters and martial warriors both. Heck, even if you want to stick to melee, as long as you've got a BAB of +1 you can drop your current weapon and draw something with reach as part of your move action, and suddenly that 5-foot step doesn't put the defender out of range anymore.
There's two ways to interpret that.No, there aren't. I don't find your wording an improvement, at all.
Let me look at what I quoted again, and see if I'm missing something.
Yeah, you're probably right. That sentence is still all kinds of weird to me, though.
There's two ways to interpret that.No, there aren't. I don't find your wording an improvement, at all.Let me look at what I quoted again, and see if I'm missing something.
Yeah, you're probably right. That sentence is still all kinds of weird to me, though.
RPGs are where grammer comes to die!
That's a moot point, because melee vs melee happens. Often. Any time you fight an animal with 5ft reach. Many, MANY, creatures do not have reach or ranged attacks. This tactic even existing in pathfinder means a level 1 commoner can defeat, or permanently defend against, a dire bear.Also importantly (and repeatedly), this hypothetical "5-foot step invincibility" can be negated by a crossbow, or a longbow, or a thrown dagger, or a breath weapon, or a spell - any one of a thousand different ranged options that are available to casters and martial warriors both. Heck, even if you want to stick to melee, as long as you've got a BAB of +1 you can drop your current weapon and draw something with reach as part of your move action, and suddenly that 5-foot step doesn't put the defender out of range anymore.Here is the thing. You are already allowed to take a 5' step as part of a full attack (no new rules needed). This shows that your theoretical invincible defender using readied actions doesn't actually work. It might buy the defender a round or two till their opponent catches on, but unless the attacker is mindless in its tactics they can foil it, and actually make the defenders position worse then if they'd not used this tactic to begin with.
Thanks, this is exactly what I am trying to say.I think the best interpretation is to allow them to adjust their attack to have a 5 ft step in it. And, if the character has movement left, to continue their movement. The issue will still exist when people approach each other using 5 ft steps (like you would in boxing) but I'll just deal. My players aren't interested in using this strat anyway. They consider it cheating.
Until the dire bear spends one round taking only a move action and no attack to get next to the commoner, at which point the commoner's tactic no longer works.
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Here is the thing. You are already allowed to take a 5' step as part of a full attack (no new rules needed). This shows that your theoretical invincible defender using readied actions doesn't actually work. It might buy the defender a round or two till their opponent catches on, but unless the attacker is mindless in its tactics they can foil it, and actually make the defenders position worse then if they'd not used this tactic to begin with.
Thanks, this is exactly what I am trying to say.I think the best interpretation is to allow them to adjust their attack to have a 5 ft step in it. And, if the character has movement left, to continue their movement. The issue will still exist when people approach each other using 5 ft steps (like you would in boxing) but I'll just deal. My players aren't interested in using this strat anyway. They consider it cheating.
No... that's not true. So many people don't understand what's going on. I should have actually drawn it out.
The attacker always has to use his move action, before attacking, to approach the enemy. He never will get the chance to 5 ft step during his attack, because he has to move to begin it.
You are the one that don't read/don't understand what people are saying.
If I move next to your "ready to strike when attacked" commoner and don't attack his readied action isn't triggered.
At that point when he start his round he is adjacent to me. If he move away he has used his movement and can't 5' step away with his readied action. I will have to take a 5' step to get next to him the next round, but he will be unable to move away from my attack.
If instead he stay put and ready an action to attack me when attacked and 5' step away, I will be adjacent to him at the start of my turn and able to take a 5' step when he use his readied action.
If I don't attack I can eve ready a action of my own when I get near to him. Something like: "If he move away I will strike him". A that point I will get an attack if he move and put my initiative just ahead of his.
That's a moot point, because melee vs melee happens. Often. Any time you fight an animal with 5ft reach. Many, MANY, creatures do not have reach or ranged attacks. This tactic even existing in pathfinder means a level 1 commoner can defeat, or permanently defend against, a dire bear.
You're right that melee versus melee happens - even in my games! I wonder how that is, when according to you there's no possible way for it to occur?
As to the commoner defeating the dire bear: Dire bears have reach. They also can charge. They can also move in and not attack, as
Gigigidge points out. Commoner readying to 5-foot versus dire bear - winner: dire bear.
That's a moot point, because melee vs melee happens. Often. Any time you fight an animal with 5ft reach. Many, MANY, creatures do not have reach or ranged attacks. This tactic even existing in pathfinder means a level 1 commoner can defeat, or permanently defend against, a dire bear.You're right that melee versus melee happens - even in my games! I wonder how that is, when according to you there's no possible way for it to occur?
As to the commoner defeating the dire bear: Dire bears have reach. They also can charge. They can also move in and not attack, as
Gigigidge points out. Commoner readying to 5-foot versus dire bear - winner: dire bear.
Also, conceivably there might be terrain features to avoid. Can't keep taking 5' steps backwards if there's a house in your way.
Also, conceivably there might be terrain features to avoid. Can't keep taking 5' steps backwards if there's a house in your way.That's a moot point, because melee vs melee happens. Often. Any time you fight an animal with 5ft reach. Many, MANY, creatures do not have reach or ranged attacks. This tactic even existing in pathfinder means a level 1 commoner can defeat, or permanently defend against, a dire bear.You're right that melee versus melee happens - even in my games! I wonder how that is, when according to you there's no possible way for it to occur?
As to the commoner defeating the dire bear: Dire bears have reach. They also can charge. They can also move in and not attack, as
Gigigidge points out. Commoner readying to 5-foot versus dire bear - winner: dire bear.
Or even a random patch of mud or loose rock that counts as rough terrain.
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You are the one that don't read/don't understand what people are saying.
This +Over 9000
@digitalpacman
Let me explain it one more team. Please read it carefully and understand what is actually happening.
Round 1:
A readies action
B moves in, then attacks.
A triggers readied action on attack and attacks + 5' steps
B can't attack due to range
Round 2: (this is the key round to understand)
A readies action
B moves and does NOT attack, but either does nothing or readies his own action.
A does NOT trigger as he was not attacked, A's turn was essentially wasted.
Round 3:
A readies action
B full attacks
A triggers and attacks and 5' steps away.
B as part of his full attack can take a 5' step at any in point in time of that full attack - he 5' steps up to A, and then completes his full attack with ALL of his attacks
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The attacker always has to use his move action, before attacking, to approach the enemy. He never will get the chance to 5 ft step during his attack, because he has to move to begin it.
Not if, as in my example, the attacker uses a round to move adjacent to the defender but doesn't attack. The defender never gets his readied action that round and so doesn't 5 feet step.
Now when the defender gets his next go he can 5 feet step back and ready to attack when being attacked, but if that readied action triggers he cannot 5 feet step again.
Round 3
Adam is 10 feet from Blaze (i.e. not adjacent)
Adam again readies to attack Blaze and 5 feet step away.
Blaze starts to catch on to what Adam is doing and moves adjacent to him and readies an action to attack Adam if he attacks her or attempts to move away (she cannot also ready to step up as she moved)Round 4
Adam and Blaze begin this round adjacent to one another.
Adam didn't get to take his last readied action, but again readies to attack Blaze and 5 feet step away should she attack him.
Blaze readies an action to attack Adam if he attacks her or attempts to move away and to 5 feet step after him if needed.
In round 4 Blaze doesn't have to use her move before the attack unless Adam chooses to move and then ready, in which case Adam cannot 5 feet step as part of the readied action and Blaze would get her standard attack in after moving up and after Adam's readied attack.
This seems more like a dueling tactic. As long as the opponent does not have Lunge, Step Up, Step Up And Strike, access to ranged weapons and magics, nor a reach weapon, then this could be a useful tactic ... as long as there's room to do it, no terrain issues, and no additional combatants to ruin the party. I rarely have extended mono y mono encounters. One of my comrades will come to my aid if I'm floundering. The op's tactic has its place, but it's situational, not a game breaker.
I don't think you guys are getting my point. If this is the way combat works in Golarion, NO ONE WOULD EVER FIGHT ANYONE. Because attacks would _always_ lose.
And it has nothing to do with movement speed either, the reaction is "when I am attacked" You only get one move, and move attack action per turn. If you are attacking your move action is ended. You cannot continue a move after the interruption.
yeah you only get one move, but on round 2 they would only be 5' apart. If the orc uses his move action to move up and attack the elf, and the elf tries the same shenanigans and interrupts him, the orc has only used 5' of his movement and can use the remaining 25' after the interruption takes place. He can still use the remaining movement because he has not attacked yet, meaning he hasn't technically finished his move
In fact, the only way it would even work on round 1 is if the orc needed every bit of his movement to get to the elf before the elf used this maneuver. In that case it would work, and it would work great, but only for that round