I would like a definitive answer.
Can you cast sleep on someone who's already asleep?
If a horse has been dropped to negative Con, can you cast an Empowered, Maximized, Intensified Fireball on it to kill it again? Can he then be grappled?
I don't think DMs are qualified to answer this. FAQ please.
I believe you can cast sleep on someone who is already asleep. You are overlaying a magically enchanted sleep atop a natural sleep. Noise might stir a naturally sleeping person. The magical sleep makes sure they stay asleep. It is not natural. It is forced on them.
If a horse is dropped to negative Con and such an event kills the horse, then you can cast your fireball, but it won't kill the horse again. It will burn the remains and maybe even reduce the remains to ash. But the horse is already dead. It can't die again unless you raise it. It can be grappled. Such an action is probably automatic as the CMD would be at or near 0. My ruling though. Not going to bother with looking up RAW.
Still need a FAQ? Start your own thread. And good luck with it. :P
But if the sarcasm is to point out that you think this thread is ridiculous, then please give us your answer.
Mine is no. But I'm curious to hear yours.
Judging by this post, I think it's safe to assume that MattR thinks you cannot trip a prone target.
Despite his attempts to be ridiculous, his "tripping someone in space" question actually has some relevance. How do these combat maneuvers work in Planes that have different properties (particularly if they're weightless)? Not as silly of a question as he may think it is after all.
I'm of the belief that by ... Rule 0 that you cannot.I find this a very peculiar statement to make.
By rule 0 you can do anything. Or you can't do anything. All based on the GM's whim. Rule 0 isn't really a RAW rule. It's a, "If you don't like something feel free to make a house rule for it." So invoking it in support of a certain viewpoint on a RAW topic has no weight.
Your other half of the argument, that by RAW you cannot trip a prone person, is simply unsupported, as evidenced by the multitude of threads on this subject, and the length of them - and supported by the fact that it isn't one person who is disagreeing with everyone else - but looks to be more of a 50/50 split. Though the FAQ on trip locking lends more support to the idea you can trip a prone person than any other argument for or against the idea.
Now RAI, that is another matter altogether. RAI (according to me) is, No, you cannot trip a already prone person, and cannot trigger the AoO's as a result. But I'd also have no problem with a trip maneuver being used successfully to produce any other result from throwing to dragging.
I would agree you could find anything peculiar if you're going to mine for some hidden meaning that's not there. The addition of Rule 0 was to imply that even if it was RAW, I wouldn't allow something like Greater Trip to be triggered on an already prone target. Should I have said "or" instead of "and"? Are you really going to parse words that much? If so, then no wonder you find peculiarity as you look around. I'd think people are capable of getting the gist of what I was saying. Is my faith misplaced?
As to my opinion being unsupported, first let's make sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm not talking about performing a successful trip attack on a prone target. That is not the question. I'm talking about the action of knocking someone prone. I've pointed out before that the FAQ suggests you can always make the attempt. You can meteor hammer drag a prone target or flip him to a new square with Ki Throw. Those aren't talking about knocking prone. They're talking about succeeding at an attempt. You can always attack a dead body too. Nothing is stopping you. But you're never going to kill it if it's already dead. You can knock a prone target prone as much as you can stand up while already standing. Do you NEED a FAQ to confirm that? Really? No wonder people like MattR have a field-day with threads like this. Now talk about another Plane that has its own natural laws and then we're going all sorts of ways wonky. THAT would make an interesting debate.
Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you can knock a prone person prone or kill a dead person or blind a blind man. Hey maybe I can stand up when I'm already standing and provoke an AoO from any enemy that threatens me. I'll bring that up to my GM next time I play and see the baffled look on his face. ;)
I'd just like to note that the Prone condition in Pathfinder doesn't necessarily mean you're actually prone. Prone in Pathfinder covers all aspects of lying on the ground, even doing so in a defensive position where one's limbs might be subject to getting wrapped and dragged.I agree with this. That is why I believe it is possible to drag someone with a Meteor Hammer...or even flip them to another square with a Ki Throw.Wait, we agree on something? I didn't think we were allowed to do that ...
;)
Yeah I know, right? The polar vortex must be freezing Hell over. :P
Can you cast sleep on someone who's asleep? Yeah, why not? The effect from the Sleep spell is different than simply being asleep. And there's no reason to think you can't target someone who was the subject of a separate Sleep spell with Sleep again. Sleep can't be used on unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead. It says nothing about creatures who are already asleep or otherwise helpless.
Is there are particular benefit or function to be gained by "re-killing" the horse that's already dead? What purpose would be served by grappling a dead body? Why not just grab it?
So, snark aside, you didn't even provide particularly good examples.
Someone who is asleep is unconscious.
Sleep is a mind affecting compulsion... those tend to not work so wonderfully when someone is asleep.
I really doubt that you could affect someone who is sleeping with a Sleep spell.
I'd just like to note that the Prone condition in Pathfinder doesn't necessarily mean you're actually prone. Prone in Pathfinder covers all aspects of lying on the ground, even doing so in a defensive position where one's limbs might be subject to getting wrapped and dragged.I agree with this. That is why I believe it is possible to drag someone with a Meteor Hammer...or even flip them to another square with a Ki Throw.Wait, we agree on something? I didn't think we were allowed to do that ...
;)
I agree too... hrm.
Judging by this post, I think it's safe to assume that MattR thinks you cannot trip a prone target.
Despite his attempts to be ridiculous, his "tripping someone in space" question actually has some relevance. How do these combat maneuvers work in Planes that have different properties (particularly if they're weightless)? Not as silly of a question as he may think it is after all.
Unless tripping someone can teleport them to the ground or teleport the ground to them... it simply cannot be done.
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This is how I see things. As James Jacobs responsed to the greater trip AoO question I asked him on Mar. 4th, 2014.
"If something is prone, it can't be tripped, because it's already prone. For the same reason, things that don't have legs can't be tripped, and things that are not walking on the ground (because they're swimming or flying or whatever) can't be tripped either."
To me, prone means your not a valid trip combat maneuver target.
Now for things like ki throw, meteor hammer and seven branched sword. All these things say you can do someting instead of making your target prone, which means to me that they must first be a valid trip combat maneuver target. So to me you can't use ki throw, meteor hammer or seven branched sword on a prone target.
But As I say this is the way I see things, others may see things different.
This is what MY common sense says.