Moved from discussion on Coin:
I am actually starting to like the idea of it being a "living loot" with accepting the SAD essentially giving permission. So, threaded items are automatically excluded, and it again does not preclude coin and/or other goods from being a "side deal" during a SAD.
And this works well with the idea of SAD being a PvP skill with a character-to-character scope.
A sad though is nothing like looting a body it is a negotiated ransom between merchant and bandit in order to prevent conflict. Random loot is an idea I personally dislike in this situation.
Goblin Squad Member
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Devil's Advocate Positions:
If hostility works the way that others believe, and any bystander can now attack without consequence, then I would use a larger group of bandits in my grouping (zerg) and potentially a bait alt.
I could also just search around for parties already engaged, wait to one or the other is weakened sufficiently, and then jump in. Take out the stronger of the two (helping the weaker), and then my second group would take out the weaker and we loot both sides. All of this would be consequence free.
Those will inevitably happen anyway, Bluddwolf. If not by the UNC than by those less principled. This fact renders your warning fairly impotent. Those will happen, and you know it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A sad though is nothing like looting a body it is a negotiated ransom between merchant and bandit in order to prevent conflict. Random loot is an idea I personally dislike in this situation.Moved from discussion on Coin:
I am actually starting to like the idea of it being a "living loot" with accepting the SAD essentially giving permission. So, threaded items are automatically excluded, and it again does not preclude coin and/or other goods from being a "side deal" during a SAD.
And this works well with the idea of SAD being a PvP skill with a character-to-character scope.
That raises an interesting question. 25% of unthreaded is destroyed on death. How much of unthreaded is available in a SAD?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Devil's Advocate Positions:
If hostility works the way that others believe, and any bystander can now attack without consequence, then I would use a larger group of bandits in my grouping (zerg) and potentially a bait alt.
I could also just search around for parties already engaged, wait to one or the other is weakened sufficiently, and then jump in. Take out the stronger of the two (helping the weaker), and then my second group would take out the weaker and we loot both sides. All of this would be consequence free.
I'm a bit confused. Why would it all be consequence free? The initial victim wouldn't be consequence free for anyone to attack unless they started attacking a third group that hadn't attacked them first?
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Goblin Squad Member
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That raises an interesting question. 25% of unthreaded is destroyed on death. How much of unthreaded is available in a SAD?A sad though is nothing like looting a body it is a negotiated ransom between merchant and bandit in order to prevent conflict. Random loot is an idea I personally dislike in this situation.Moved from discussion on Coin:
I am actually starting to like the idea of it being a "living loot" with accepting the SAD essentially giving permission. So, threaded items are automatically excluded, and it again does not preclude coin and/or other goods from being a "side deal" during a SAD.
And this works well with the idea of SAD being a PvP skill with a character-to-character scope.
My first reaction is to tie that to your SAD skill: SAD level Min - random 25% of untreaded, SAD level Max - 75% of unthreaded, etc. SAD then becomes a River Kingdoms "stop and frisk" mechanic. The victim either agrees to stand their while being frisked or not. It is better than dieing because you do not loose what is not taken, no damage to gear, and of course, after you can go on your way.
The "negotiation" part does not even have to be part of the SAD...for instance, during the SAD, Bluddwolf takes my +1 family heirloom dagger, after the SAD, I can offer to buy it back from him for 1500g if I want...or I can offer him x goods. Or, he can see what he took and offer me a trade. I think it would become standard for bandits to ask if anyone wants to negotiate the return of any items, if they are not under threat.
EDIT: I wonder if this could give assassins a role in bandit companies in a (potentially) non-fatal first strike role to both weaken defenses and unthread items before the bandits issue their SADs.
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I think it would be preferable to allow the ransoming of items that are part of a SAD before they changed hands. Lots of people would rightfully be angry if they thought that they would be allowed to 'buy it back', but the thief simply ran away with the item in question.
If the bandit won't accept any amount of coin, at least make that fact known before the transaction completes and give the target a chance to evade or defeat the attacker.
I think it would be preferable to allow the ransoming of items that are part of a SAD before they changed hands. Lots of people would rightfully be angry if they thought that they would be allowed to 'buy it back', but the thief simply ran away with the item in question.
If the bandit won't accept any amount of coin, at least make that fact known before the transaction completes and give the target a chance to evade or defeat the attacker.
No one has promised them they could buy it back merely that they could make an offer to buy it back. The bandit is perfectly free to accept or reject the idea. Don't want to lose that family heirloom do not agree to offering it as part of the sad while negotiating the amount.
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My first reaction is to tie that to your SAD skill: SAD level Min - random 25% of untreaded, SAD level Max - 75% of unthreaded, etc. SAD then becomes a River Kingdoms "stop and frisk" mechanic. The victim either agrees to stand their while being frisked or not. It is better than dieing because you do not loose what is not taken, no damage to gear, and of course, after you can go on your way.
If they were to go with some random mix of goods, it could work like this:
- Robber declares SAD - everyone freezes in place, roughly.
- Robber chief gets a UI that shows all of the possible items he can demand. He clicks everything he wants in include in his demand. He only gets to pick some mix of the items, that 25-75% - based on skills, maybe party size. (It could be hard to frisk people when you're actually outnumbered and you don't know what you're doing).
- Head of the travelers has a UI that shows everything the bandit is demanding. When the bandit finishes, the traveler gets the options buttons, [accept] or [refuse]. Traveler also has the option at any point of canceling the demand, which is treated like a refusal.
- for the sake of negotiation, I guess the head of travellers could have ability to mark some items as not part of the demand, and include others. I'm not sure if that is particularly useful.
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I think it would be preferable to allow the ransoming of items that are part of a SAD before they changed hands. Lots of people would rightfully be angry if they thought that they would be allowed to 'buy it back', but the thief simply ran away with the item in question.
If the bandit won't accept any amount of coin, at least make that fact known before the transaction completes and give the target a chance to evade or defeat the attacker.
I do not agree, for simplicities sake, I think one either has to accept the SAD or not. Accepting opens a trade window with the bandit showing her everything she is found and is now free to take. And the bandit might not know until after they see their score whether they will haggle buybacks.
I do not think the victim should have any say other than through the use of threads as to what the bandit takes...and if the bandit is happy with their scare and runs off, I think that sounds right. The victim is always welcome to attack the bandit, and accept the consequences of doing...at any point during the interaction.
But perhaps I just do not see what you do, can you describe how you would see the negotiation take place? what I envision would not let the SAD take place until both parties "Accept" which I am not sure is consistent with a "Stealing At Daggerpoint" and is an unfair delay to the bandit who might be hot to make an escape.
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My first reaction is to tie that to your SAD skill: SAD level Min - random 25% of untreaded, SAD level Max - 75% of unthreaded, etc. SAD then becomes a River Kingdoms "stop and frisk" mechanic. The victim either agrees to stand their while being frisked or not. It is better than dieing because you do not loose what is not taken, no damage to gear, and of course, after you can go on your way.If they were to go with some random mix of goods, it could work like this:
- Robber declares SAD - everyone freezes in place, roughly.
- Robber chief gets a UI that shows all of the possible items he can demand. He clicks everything he wants in include in his demand. He only gets to pick some mix of the items, that 25-75% - based on skills, maybe party size. (It could be hard to frisk people when you're actually outnumbered and you don't know what you're doing).
- Head of the travelers has a UI that shows everything the bandit is demanding. When the bandit finishes, the traveler gets the options buttons, [accept] or [refuse]. Traveler also has the option at any point of canceling the demand, which is treated like a refusal.
The traveller should have the option to make a counter offer. The bandit may be proposing to take something he definitely wants to keep and he should be able to replace it with goods he would rather offer. An example being an item specifically crafted for a custom contract, the merchant may well be happier agreeing to part with goods destined for market sale than that and should be able to make a counter offer.
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There seems to be a lot of talk about 'consequence free' actions by bandits (that is, a SAD) which seems to irk some people. I don't actually see issuing a SAD as a consequence free action in that there is an alignment shift associated with it, a criminal flag issued and possibly a hostile flag if the victim does not agree to the SAD. If the bandits then attack and kill the victim (not a given mind you) then there is yet another alignment shift. These are all consequences.
The only thing different to anyone else initiating an action against an unflagged character is a reputation shift. Since bandits are a crucial role to the game that is fully sanctioned by GW, then reputation loss cannot and should not enter into the equation (unless the bandits break their agreement after completing the SAD).
It seems most of the ire comes from the fact that bandits are able to initiate a SAD (and possibly combat) against unflagged characters. Would giving them a longer than normal flag afterwards (criminal or hostile) serve to remove some of this ire? If the normal flag length is 10 minutes, make the SAD criminal flags 20 mins for example.
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I don't actually see issuing a SAD as a consequence free action in that there is an alignment shift associated with it, a criminal flag issued and possibly a hostile flag if the victim does not agree to the SAD.
Yeah, I don't see the SAD as consequence free, either. Lesser consequences than a simple murder, perhaps - avoiding rep loss could be important - but it isn't consequence free.
I'm not sure who originally raised the idea of an alignment shift associated with the SAD - do you think it should have a chaotic shift just for using it?
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An alignment shift is hardly a consequence as most bandits eschew law and order to begin with. It is more like a reward.
Still, interesting points Jiminy. Is a bigger To - Do being made of this than is necessary? I suppose it is, in the case that the power is not used in ways other than it is meant to be used.
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Goblin Squad Member
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SAD should be a single-target, skill-based touch attack (very short range).
HALT, used to pull caravans out of fast travel, should be a hideout mechanic...not a part of SAD (although probably designed to use in conjunction). I can see many non-bandit uses for HALT, especially in warfare.
SAD should be usable anywhere and in any situation one is willing to go "Attacker". It should be considered from that generic perspective versus simply as a caravan mechanic.
1. Being SAD'd should involve nothing more than a pop-up saying "Bluddwolf has just commanded you to Stand and Deliver, do you comply?"
2. If you accept, the normal "loot timer" appears, after which he can take what he wants in a loot window. He can choose a random selection of your unthreaded items.
If the SAD skill is "advancable", I think the percentage of items should be tied to the SAD skill. I also think the number of bandits in your party should give you a significant bonus to your SAD ability. This is to give bandits incentive to stay in team and get the bonus as opposed to SAD'ing multiple times unteamed.
3. After Bluddwolf takes what he wants, he alone finishes the SAD with Accept or Cancel. An Accept gives him and everyone in his party a "SAD timer" buff and a hostile flag.. A Cancel nullifies the SAD.
4. Once the SAD has been completed, normal social interaction occurs. One is free to talk, suggest trades, etc. If the Bluddwolf does not feel threatened and thinks he can increase his crews profit, he will probably do so.
5. When a "SAD timer" ends without the victim having not since died, it provides a very small transfer of Rep from the victim.
Alternately, if the victim or Sad'er die before the "SAD timer" ends, there is a very small transfer of Rep to the victim.
EDIT: The above "normal social interaction" includes all PvP, faction warefare, feuds, etc...with normal consequences (plus #5).
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We should not get hung up on the mechanic because it is called stand and deliver. It is a mechanic that can be used for a wide range of applications such as for example customs stops ((because the agents can demand goods in payment it opens all sorts of doors to corruption such as charge me 50% of what you should for excise duty and I will split the difference with you sort of thing))
It is a useful mechanic that can be adapted to many uses and with programming time at a premium GW will be looking to reuse mechanics where they can. Perhaps if we called it Stop and Haggle or something then one use can be stand and deliver, another stop and search, another stop and tax....etc
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Goblin Squad Member
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We should not get hung up on the mechanic because it is called stand and deliver. It is a mechanic that can be used for a wide range of applications such as for example customs stops ((because the agents can demand goods in payment it opens all sorts of doors to corruption such as charge me 50% of what you should for excise duty and I will split the difference with you sort of thing))
It is a useful mechanic that can be adapted to many uses and with programming time at a premium GW will be looking to reuse mechanics where they can. Perhaps if we called it Stop and Haggle or something then one use can be stand and deliver, another stop and search, another stop and tax....etc
Exactly...that is what I meant by arguing we need to consider from a very general perspective, not as a "rob a caravan" mechanic.
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It should be chaotic skill, probably along the lines of a paladin smite evil ability, paladins have to be lawful to slot it. I would imagine bandits would have to be chaotic to slot SAD ( assuming it is a skill)
When speaking of single characters it is easy, but as a group, SAD should still be chaotic, and if a lawful character is involved they should take a chaotic hit for using it. (not that the marshal thing is a reality yet, but I imagine characters would have to lawful to slot that and chaotic people in a marshal group would take lawful hits when using the marshal mechanic to fight criminals..)
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1. Being SAD'd should involve nothing more than a pop-up saying "Bluddwolf has just commanded you to Stand and Deliver, do you comply?"2. If you accept, the normal "loot timer" appears, after which he can take what he wants in a loot window. He can choose a random selection of your unthreaded items.
Absolutely no to this. No sane merchant is ever going to accept a SAD if they do not know how much they are going to be charged.
using the 25% rule if I am carrying 1000 iron bars then I have no idea when the popup happens whether I am going to be charged 1 bar or 750. Somewhere between those two there is a line where a merchant would decide accepting is no longer worth it. You cannot ask someone to accept a blind sad anymore than you could expect someone to decide to buy something without knowing the price
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Goblin Squad Member
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It should be chaotic skill, probably along the lines of a paladin smite evil ability, paladins have to be lawful to slot it. I would imagine bandits would have to be chaotic to slot SAD ( assuming it is a skill)
When speaking of single characters it is easy, but as a group, SAD should still be chaotic, and if a lawful character is involved they should take a chaotic hit for using it. (not that the marshal thing is a reality yet, but I imagine characters would have to lawful to slot that and chaotic people in a marshal group would take lawful hits when using the marshal mechanic to fight criminals..)
So a lawful marshal should take a chaotic hit for checking to insure you are not bringing contraband into his town?
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. Being SAD'd should involve nothing more than a pop-up saying "Bluddwolf has just commanded you to Stand and Deliver, do you comply?"2. If you accept, the normal "loot timer" appears, after which he can take what he wants in a loot window. He can choose a random selection of your unthreaded items.
Absolutely no to this. No sane merchant is ever going to accept a SAD if they do not know how much they are going to be charged.
using the 25% rule if I am carrying 1000 iron bars then I have no idea when the popup happens whether I am going to be charged 1 bar or 750. Somewhere between those two there is a line where a merchant would decide accepting is no longer worth it. You cannot ask someone to accept a blind sad anymore than you could expect someone to decide to buy something without knowing the price
I totally disagree...Then the bandit kills you and takes 75%. You take damage to your gear and loose all of the other 25% of unthreaded items. And optionally, as a merchant, I assume once the owners of a wagon are dead, the bandits are free to claim it. Meaning you loose you goods too. I do not see how that is a better solution.
I do want to clarify though, how are you carrying 1000 iron bars?
But just to clarify my point,
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So a lawful marshal should take a chaotic hit for checking to insure you are not bringing contraband into his town?It should be chaotic skill, probably along the lines of a paladin smite evil ability, paladins have to be lawful to slot it. I would imagine bandits would have to be chaotic to slot SAD ( assuming it is a skill)
When speaking of single characters it is easy, but as a group, SAD should still be chaotic, and if a lawful character is involved they should take a chaotic hit for using it. (not that the marshal thing is a reality yet, but I imagine characters would have to lawful to slot that and chaotic people in a marshal group would take lawful hits when using the marshal mechanic to fight criminals..)
You just reskin the "guts" with different skill names and alignment shifts and descriptions for how and when/where used.
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I don't actually see issuing a SAD as a consequence free action in that there is an alignment shift associated with it, a criminal flag issued and possibly a hostile flag if the victim does not agree to the SAD.Yeah, I don't see the SAD as consequence free, either. Lesser consequences than a simple murder, perhaps - avoiding rep loss could be important - but it isn't consequence free.
I'm not sure who originally raised the idea of an alignment shift associated with the SAD - do you think it should have a chaotic shift just for using it?
My assumptions are (and they used to be based on the dev blogs, but I'm not as au fait with them at the moment) that using a SAD gives you the criminal flag which is inherently chaotic. This would therefore shift your alignment along the chaotic axis to some degree. Killing the victim also does the same along the evil axis.
This raises an interesting issue in that if people use them for 'lawful' purposes such as customs checks, then the 'customs officers' are going to have their alignment moved along the chaotic axis inadvertently.
Maybe the alignment shifts have changes but the devs have not kept us informed of that, or maybe they just haven't given the issue that much thought as yet.
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So a lawful marshal should take a chaotic hit for checking to insure you are not bringing contraband into his town?It should be chaotic skill, probably along the lines of a paladin smite evil ability, paladins have to be lawful to slot it. I would imagine bandits would have to be chaotic to slot SAD ( assuming it is a skill)
When speaking of single characters it is easy, but as a group, SAD should still be chaotic, and if a lawful character is involved they should take a chaotic hit for using it. (not that the marshal thing is a reality yet, but I imagine characters would have to lawful to slot that and chaotic people in a marshal group would take lawful hits when using the marshal mechanic to fight criminals..)
I have always argued the SAD mechanic could be used for a variety of purposes, and yes, that included interdiction in search of contraband.
Some people have been hung up on it as being an activity solely associated with banditry.
The Devs have always said, come up with a system that can be used by many and would be used often.
Perhaps the same mechanic can have a different name, and different alignment shift, but all if the same costs?
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I dont think Marshals should be using a SAD mechanic at all, not sure where i lost you on that one, sorry.
I just think SAD should be chaotic, a Character needs to be chatoic to slot it.I brought up the Marshal thing as ah opposite of SAD, as a lawful example.
Meaning groups participating with characters using SAD need to take Chatoic hits. Conversely characters that would be in a Marshal Group when he uses his abilities would be taking lawful hits.( when/if Marshal becomes a reality)
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Goblin Squad Member
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You just reskin the "guts" with different skill names and alignment shifts and descriptions for how and when/where used.So a lawful marshal should take a chaotic hit for checking to insure you are not bringing contraband into his town?It should be chaotic skill, probably along the lines of a paladin smite evil ability, paladins have to be lawful to slot it. I would imagine bandits would have to be chaotic to slot SAD ( assuming it is a skill)
When speaking of single characters it is easy, but as a group, SAD should still be chaotic, and if a lawful character is involved they should take a chaotic hit for using it. (not that the marshal thing is a reality yet, but I imagine characters would have to lawful to slot that and chaotic people in a marshal group would take lawful hits when using the marshal mechanic to fight criminals..)
Well that is why in my proposal, I gave the initiator of SAD the option to Cancel it if they do not want to take any items...and did not initiate the consequences of the SAD until it was Accepted. A Canceled SAD would be no more than an inspection/frisk, no consequences. An Accepted SAD would be robbery, initiate a SAD timer and hostile flag...so if they do it that way, I could see a chaotic hit too for anyone, even a marshal who steals your stuff...even if the stuff is contraband.
Edit: A necessary consequence for the good of the community.
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1. Being SAD'd should involve nothing more than a pop-up saying "Bluddwolf has just commanded you to Stand and Deliver, do you comply?"2. If you accept, the normal "loot timer" appears, after which he can take what he wants in a loot window. He can choose a random selection of your unthreaded items.
Absolutely no to this. No sane merchant is ever going to accept a SAD if they do not know how much they are going to be charged.
using the 25% rule if I am carrying 1000 iron bars then I have no idea when the popup happens whether I am going to be charged 1 bar or 750. Somewhere between those two there is a line where a merchant would decide accepting is no longer worth it. You cannot ask someone to accept a blind sad anymore than you could expect someone to decide to buy something without knowing the price
I totally disagree...Then the bandit kills you and takes 75%. You take damage to your gear and loose all of the other 25% of unthreaded items. And optionally, as a merchant, I assume once the owners of a wagon are dead, the bandits are free to claim it. Meaning you loose you goods too. I do not see how that is a better solution.
I do want to clarify though, how are you carrying 1000 iron bars?
But just to clarify my point,
The 1000 iron bars are just an example don't get hung up on it it could be 1000 anything.
1) Bandits will always ask for the maximum under what you propose
2) 75% is not a reasonable SAD and I expect even bluddwolf will tell you this. A cargo may well be worth 1000 coin for example but probably only 100 coin of that is profit. If the bandit takes 75% of the value it means a merchant can only make a profit if he gets robbed less that 1 in 8 trips and even at those figures of being robbed 1 in 8 trips he would only make 50 coins profit total over the 8 trips.
If you want to make sure sad's are never accepted your suggestion is the way to go. The merchant is already losing so much he may as well take his chances on running.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So a lawful marshal should take a chaotic hit for checking to insure you are not bringing contraband into his town?
Yeah, the chaotic hit could happen after the goods are examined, when the inspector (or bandit) clicks on some selection of the items he is aware of and confirms it with [make demand].
Only then should the merchant have to [accept demand], [refuse demand], or [counter-offer].
If that were the case, the marshal couldn't seize items without a chaos hit, but he could turn back the smugglers before they entered with the contraband.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. Being SAD'd should involve nothing more than a pop-up saying "Bluddwolf has just commanded you to Stand and Deliver, do you comply?"2. If you accept, the normal "loot timer" appears, after which he can take what he wants in a loot window. He can choose a random selection of your unthreaded items.
Absolutely no to this. No sane merchant is ever going to accept a SAD if they do not know how much they are going to be charged.
using the 25% rule if I am carrying 1000 iron bars then I have no idea when the popup happens whether I am going to be charged 1 bar or 750. Somewhere between those two there is a line where a merchant would decide accepting is no longer worth it. You cannot ask someone to accept a blind sad anymore than you could expect someone to decide to buy something without knowing the price
I totally disagree...Then the bandit kills you and takes 75%. You take damage to your gear and loose all of the other 25% of unthreaded items. And optionally, as a merchant, I assume once the owners of a wagon are dead, the bandits are free to claim it. Meaning you loose you goods too. I do not see how that is a better solution.
I do want to clarify though, how are you carrying 1000 iron bars?
But just to clarify my point,
The 1000 iron bars are just an example don't get hung up on it it could be 1000 anything.
1) Bandits will always ask for the maximum under what you propose
2) 75% is not a reasonable SAD and I expect even bluddwolf will tell you this. A cargo may well be worth 1000 coin for example but probably only 100 coin of that is profit. If the bandit takes 75% of the value it means a merchant can only make a profit if he gets robbed less that 1 in 8 trips and even at those figures of being robbed 1 in 8 trips he would only make 50 coins profit total over the 8 trips.
If you want to make sure sad's are never accepted your suggestion is the way to go. The merchant is already...
But you are not considering my whole proposal...my next line said:
I think the percentage of items should be tied to the SAD skill. I also think the number of bandits in your party should give you a significant bonus to your SAD ability. This is to give bandits incentive to stay in team and get the bonus as opposed to SAD'ing multiple times unteamed.
I do not think bandits should be able to ask for anything...that is why I proposed using the loot mechanic. They simply "find" some percentage of your unthreaded items. If SAD is advancable (meaning SAD level 1 takes more training than SAD level 5) then the percentage of what they can loot is bound to that level (I also proposed a small bonus for the number of bandits currently in team).
This is almost full loot, if someone is able to get that much more from killing you, they will. Why bother training SAD then when combat skills will return more profit...and have more utility?
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Goblin Squad Member
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It comes down to how much gets through and how much doesn't. This situation is a bit different for me because there will be local markets and varying average prices. I will be pretty amazed and encouraged if a regular unmolested shipment gets a margin of 10% profit on average. A small SAD will wreck any shipment's investment and require at least another or three (successful) to recoup the loss from the first.
I don't think that I would do it, at all, if I had to surrender all or accept a SAD without knowing how much first.
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A sad though is nothing like looting a body it is a negotiated ransom between merchant and bandit in order to prevent conflict. Random loot is an idea I personally dislike in this situation.Moved from discussion on Coin:
I am actually starting to like the idea of it being a "living loot" with accepting the SAD essentially giving permission. So, threaded items are automatically excluded, and it again does not preclude coin and/or other goods from being a "side deal" during a SAD.
And this works well with the idea of SAD being a PvP skill with a character-to-character scope.
Sorry, missed this earlier...I entirely disagree, which is probably the source of our disagreement. To me, a negotiation should involve a negotiation. I am not willing to abstract that into a mechanic. As such, why bother with SAD at all if that is your definition? Why not just threaten in chat, and make a trade?
To me, a SAD is a frisk, you are giving the bandit the "permission" (granted coerced) to search you and take what they find. A low level frisker will miss stuff hidden, a mid-level frisker might find stuff well hidden, a high-level frisker will probably find most everything. I am willing to make that frisk an abstracted mechanic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Last time it was suggested that SAD be expanded to actually be applicable to more than just banditry, it was shot down. Just saying.
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1. Being SAD'd should involve nothing more than a pop-up saying "Bluddwolf has just commanded you to Stand and Deliver, do you comply?"2. If you accept, the normal "loot timer" appears, after which he can take what he wants in a loot window. He can choose a random selection of your unthreaded items.
Absolutely no to this. No sane merchant is ever going to accept a SAD if they do not know how much they are going to be charged.
using the 25% rule if I am carrying 1000 iron bars then I have no idea when the popup happens whether I am going to be charged 1 bar or 750. Somewhere between those two there is a line where a merchant would decide accepting is no longer worth it. You cannot ask someone to accept a blind sad anymore than you could expect someone to decide to buy something without knowing the price
I totally disagree...Then the bandit kills you and takes 75%. You take damage to your gear and loose all of the other 25% of unthreaded items. And optionally, as a merchant, I assume once the owners of a wagon are dead, the bandits are free to claim it. Meaning you loose you goods too. I do not see how that is a better solution.
I do want to clarify though, how are you carrying 1000 iron bars?
But just to clarify my point,
The 1000 iron bars are just an example don't get hung up on it it could be 1000 anything.
1) Bandits will always ask for the maximum under what you propose
2) 75% is not a reasonable SAD and I expect even bluddwolf will tell you this. A cargo may well be worth 1000 coin for example but probably only 100 coin of that is profit. If the bandit takes 75% of the value it means a merchant can only make a profit if he gets robbed less that 1 in 8 trips and even at those figures of being robbed 1 in 8 trips he would only make 50 coins profit total over the 8 trips.
If you want to make sure sad's are never accepted your suggestion is the way to go.
You can still have advancement of the sad mechanic by the more you raise it the more you find of the cargo (I think it is safe to assume the higher value items are likely concealed).
The reason to sad is it avoids the rep loss. That is basically what it is for to give bandits a way to steal without incurring rep loss and to compensate the merchants for the theft it gives them a way to avoid death. That is why people would still sad.
Frankly being allowed to keep 25% of your cargo puts a merchant still in the ball park of crippling losses a reasonable sad which most merchants would accept would be maybe 10 to 20% once a bandit moves above that I believe most merchants will decide trying to run for it is the better option.
If the cargo is worth 1000 coins and you get sadded for 75% of that value
if you try and run (and we know from the devs that the chance of fleeing combat is not pitifully small) then over a sample of 100 journeys sadded. (Refusal costs 1000, acceptance costs 750)
if I meekly accept I lose 75000 coin in value
if I always refuse and escape 1 time in 10 then I lose 90000 coin in value
if I always refuse and escape 1 time in 5 then I lose 80000 coin
If I always refuse and escape 1 time in 4 then I lose 75000 coin
If I always refuse and escape 1 time in 3 then I lose 66000 coin
As you can see from the above I actually only need to escape 1 time in 4 to make refusal and run profitable
When bandits ask for lower amounts which they will do if you get to refuse after you see what they are asking for it skews the maths of the situation much more towards being sensible to accept
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Goblin Squad Member
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Last time it was suggested that SAD be expanded to actually be applicable to more than just banditry, it was shot down. Just saying.
That mechanic was different, and not just an expansion of who could use the SAD and for what purposes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Last time it was suggested that SAD be expanded to actually be applicable to more than just banditry, it was shot down. Just saying.That mechanic was different, and not just an expansion of who could use the SAD and for what purposes.
On the contrary, its entire purpose was to put SAD into a framework that would be more widely applicable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Steelwing, Got it...sorry I thought I made it clear when I initially proposed the idea that I was narrowing the definition and function of SAD to only include what would normally be looted using the loot mechanic. Caravans and wagons, are too heavy to carry away and remain in the possession of those riding them. Bandits can kill everyone and take the wagons...that is their only option.
After a SAD, I suppose they could negotiate some of your stolen gear back to you for the 10 iron bars they can hobble away with.
EDIT: And I have to disagree, I think SAD'ing successfully should reward a small amount of Rep...as incentive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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(I think it is safe to assume the higher value items are likely concealed).
I'd think it would be equally safe to assume the robbers know most of the good hiding places, especially if they have high skills, unless the traveler has special concealment skills. The highest value items might be threaded in any case.
@ Steelwing, Got it...sorry I thought I made it clear when I initially proposed the idea that I was narrowing the definition and function of SAD to only include what would normally be looted using the loot mechanic. Caravans and wagons, are too heavy to carry away and remain in the possession of those riding them. Bandits can kill everyone and take the wagons...that is their only option.
After a SAD, I suppose they could negotiate some of your stolen gear back to you for the 10 iron bars they can hobble away with.
I believe bandits will be able to steal not only the contents of the wagons but the wagons and draft animals as well
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(I think it is safe to assume the higher value items are likely concealed).I'd think it would be equally safe to assume the robbers know most of the good hiding places, especially if they have high skills, unless the traveler has special concealment skills. The highest value items might be threaded in any case.
Which is why I suggested that the higher the SAD skill the more of these high value items they know about (eg find in their search)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe bandits will be able to steal not only the contents of the wagons but the wagons and draft animals as well@ Steelwing, Got it...sorry I thought I made it clear when I initially proposed the idea that I was narrowing the definition and function of SAD to only include what would normally be looted using the loot mechanic. Caravans and wagons, are too heavy to carry away and remain in the possession of those riding them. Bandits can kill everyone and take the wagons...that is their only option.
After a SAD, I suppose they could negotiate some of your stolen gear back to you for the 10 iron bars they can hobble away with.
And by your previous argument, what merchant would voluntarily give up 100% loot? Which is what that would entail.
I do not disagree with you, but I think the chance someone would do so voluntarily is so remote as to not bother with the mechanic. Use chat threaten and trade...or simply PvP mechanics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Think we have differing visions of the SAD at this point. Been a while since I laid out my views on it. The quick version is
1. make SAD a skill and give it tiers, make it chaotic and make the player using it be chaotic.
2. let the bandit decide if he wants to bully the merchant/character or if he wants to extort them..
3. Bully is just a quick look through and asking for small item/ coin, Extort is inspection of your stuff and deciding what % of it he wants to take.
4. bully SAD accepted = criminal flag for short duration but not much loot, think like I looked through your pockets and im taking this.
4a. Extortion accepted = no hostile/criminal flag and the bandits becoming defacto guards for the merchant for 10 min or till the merchant is safe or time runs out. Items agreed upon initially are transferred after the 10 min ( I still believe you cant have hostilities between someone you just made an agreement with, use the bounty system if you want revenge later)
5. If the SAD either bully or extortion is rebuked, both parties get new attacker flags on one another, if the bandit decides to attack during that time, they become hostile and take rep hits. Same goes for the merchant if they decide to attack the bandit (because the bandit hasn’t actually taken anything from the merchant at this point)
6. As for what a bandit is able to request I think that max should be tied to the skill , personally 50% cargo/ inventory should be the max that anyone can request.( Threading rules apply) but I have no idea how they are going to make that happen besides just listing the items and letting the bandit and merchant hammer out what is fair.
In no way do I think worn items should actually appear on any interface, that just lets the bandits know how to attack the other characters and win more effectively..
I still think the skill level should determine the number of items the bandit is able to pick. I also favor items being the thing they have to take ( as opposed to coin) I feel bandits should take the same risk as the merchant takes transporting things back to their hideouts. But given the time it would take to make the deal and pick items and agree to the arraignment…. Im not sure how that is going to work and folks will probably move toward coin as the transaction currency just for the ease/quickness of it.... (unless coin had tangible value.. /em bites his tongue)
I believe bandits will be able to steal not only the contents of the wagons but the wagons and draft animals as well@ Steelwing, Got it...sorry I thought I made it clear when I initially proposed the idea that I was narrowing the definition and function of SAD to only include what would normally be looted using the loot mechanic. Caravans and wagons, are too heavy to carry away and remain in the possession of those riding them. Bandits can kill everyone and take the wagons...that is their only option.
After a SAD, I suppose they could negotiate some of your stolen gear back to you for the 10 iron bars they can hobble away with.
And by your previous argument, what merchant would voluntarily give up 100% loot? Which is what that would entail.
I do not disagree with you, but I think the chance someone would do so voluntarily is so remote as to not bother with the mechanic. Use chat threaten and trade...or simply PvP mechanics.
I showed you why it is better mathmatically to try and run.
If the system is as we believe however where the SAD is a negotiation for ransom between merchant and bandit then I believe SAD values will be well short of the 75% mark and more likely to be topping out at 25 to 30%. Using those figures it becomes wholly the wrong thing to do to refuse and run
In short 75% loss I only have to escape 1 time in 4 to be better off
25% loss however I have to escape 3 times out of 4 to be better off
This is why lower SAD values will encourage merchants to accept SAD's and your proposal will motivate them to reject SAD's.
Bandits of course can still demand under the current system the full 75% and I would suggest you do an experiment when the game goes live by waylaying merchants and providing us a chart of %age asked for against refusal rate
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, I got your math, thanks.
How does your proposal differ when discussing a single individual on the road versus a caravan or wagon?
I am not asking how the math is different, I am asking how you think it should progress step by step (with the caveat that we are both asking for a generic multi-use mechanic).
And again...how do you establish the "value" of something in a player driven economy? Can my mates and I just sell an iron dagger to each other for 4 million gold to make it statistically valuable?
Yeah, I got your math, thanks.
How does your proposal differ when discussing a single individual on the road versus a caravan or wagon?
I am not asking how the math is different, I am asking how you think it should progress step by step.
It should be the same procedure
The Bandits get to see what the cargo contains ( the higher their sad skill the more of the high value hidden objects they find)
They make a proposal similar to a trade window
Merchant can counter propose
When the haggling is finished the sad is accepted or refused. A 5 wagon caravan for example may give up 1 wagon and its goods as an example.