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So, a question has come up in my group recently, a player is looking into playing a Cavalier. With this, several questions have arisen.
1. Assuming a Cavalier and his mount both have teamwork feats, they can basically be a team of themselves, correct? Would this be a viable choice to make?
2. The Cavalier is wondering about ability points for his horse. Namely, the Animal type specify that they cannot have higher than 2 intelligence. If upon level 4 he tries to up his mount's INT from 2-3, does this break the rules and therefore can't happen, or does the horse cease to be a mere animal? And if it does change, what does it change to? Furthermore, if this is a Heavy Horse, and therefore had the advanced template, does this boost now apply and give it 7 INT total?
Thoughts? Rules? Concerns?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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1. Assuming a Cavalier and his mount both have teamwork feats, they can basically be a team of themselves, correct? Would this be a viable choice to make?
2. INT from 2-3 ... now apply and give it 7 INT total?
1) If Int is 3+
2) Moving from 2->3 does nothing to it other than allow it to take any feat. It wouldn't go to 7.
1) I never thought of that. As long as the mount qualifies for the teamwork feat, it seems sound. I think Coordinated Charge in a quality you and your mount have naturally (no need for that feat). Escape Route and Swap Places may prove problematic for both the mount and you to have as teamwork feats.
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My initial thoughts:
1. I haven't thought this through completely, but note that the Cavalier's Tactician ability affects all allies within 30'. I think your mount is an ally. In addition, it says: "Allies do not need to meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats." So perhaps your mount need not be intelligent to be treated as having the feat if conferred upon it by the Tactician ability?
2. A mount is not an animal per se, and is certainly not a "mere animal". It functions as an "animal companion" which falls under the animal companion rules. Animal companions can be intelligent and still count as animals for the purposes of spells, etc.
Also note that you CANNOT take a Heavy Warhorse as your mount. Your mount must come off the animal companion list (and arguably from the ones specified in the Mount ability), so the closest thing to a Heavy Warhorse is a "horse" animal companion.
...Escape Route and Swap Places may prove problematic for both the mount and you to have as teamwork feats.
I can see why Swap Places would be an issue, simply based on size. Also it wouldn't do to try to swap while mounted, obviously. If you were dismounted and of identical size though, it should be fine, no?
Escape Route should also work while dismounted, shouldn't it? And while mounting or dismounting (perhaps an irrelevancy, since PF throws common sense to the wind with regards to mount/dismount and AoO).
1. ...Cavalier's Tactician ability affects all allies within 30'. I think your mount is an ally. In addition, it says: "Allies do not need to meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats." So perhaps your mount need not be intelligent to be treated as having the feat if conferred upon it by the Tactician ability?
I don't think that would work unless you raised the mounts intelligence to the point of PF-standard sentience (3+).
Sentient Companions: A sentient companion (a creature that can understand language and has an Intelligence score of at least 3) is considered your ally and obeys your suggestions and orders to the best of its ability. It won't necessarily blindly follow a suicidal order, but it has your interests at heart and does what it can to keep you alive. Paladin bonded mounts, familiars, and cohorts fall into this category, and are usually player-controlled companions.
Also note that you CANNOT take a Heavy Warhorse as your mount. Your mount must come off the animal companion list (and arguably from the ones specified in the Mount ability), so the closest thing to a Heavy Warhorse is a "horse" animal companion.
The text for Mount doesn't actually say that though, unless I'm missing a restriction that's laid out somewhere else. Am I?
The only absolute restrictions on what it can be are apparently DM discretion, and it has to be something you can ride. So...no oozes, for instance.
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Thanks for all the replies so far everyone! Though I must admit, the general consensus over the use of Teamwork feats is making me want to use them in the stupidest ways, like strapping a buckler onto a horse's leg and giving it the "Shield Wall" feat. Not effective mind you, but I'd relish the chance to see the look on a GM's face when you tell him that you and your horse and forming a shield wall...
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...giving it the "Shield Wall" feat. Not effective mind you, but I'd relish the chance to see the look on a GM's face when you tell him that you and your horse and forming a shield wall...
Seems legit. :)
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As I said, I didn't think through the Tactician bit, just threw it out for consideration. Given the text you quote, the animal companion is not an ally unless it is intelligent, so you got that correct.
But you are flat out wrong about being able to select a heavy horse as a mount. There is a specific list of animals that are available. Heavy horse is not on that list and RAW, cannot be selected. By your logic, no Druid would ever select a "bear" animal companion, they'd select a Dire Bear, or a Giant Constrictor Snake instead of a Constrictor Snake. You cannot apply a template to an animal companion except if specifically allowed by a feat (such as the Celestial Servant feat).
If a GM wants to let a player use a heavy horse as the base for an animal companion, rule zero says the GM can, but its neither RAW or RAI.
When I was thinking of Escape Route, I was thinking of the cavalier being mounted. The cavalier and mount move at the same time. As the cavalier moves from 5 foot square to 5 foot square, the cavalier denies attacks of opportunity against the mount. As the mount moves from 5 foot square to 5 foot square, the mount denies attacks of opportunity against the cavalier. This feat allows both the cavalier and mount to move anywhere on the battlefield, totally ignoring any attacks of opportunity along the way.
Is there a line 50 squares wide and 5 squares deep of enemies? No problem. Ride straight through them (with no special movement or action) to the other side without attacks of opportunities.
like strapping a buckler onto a horse's leg and giving it the "Shield Wall" feat.
lol
I can't stop laughing.
When I was thinking of Escape Route, I was thinking of the cavalier being mounted. The cavalier and mount move at the same time. As the cavalier moves from 5 foot square to 5 foot square, the cavalier denies attacks of opportunity against the mount. As the mount moves from 5 foot square to 5 foot square, the mount denies attacks of opportunity against the cavalier. This feat allows both the cavalier and mount to move anywhere on the battlefield, totally ignoring any attacks of opportunity along the way.
Is there a line 50 squares wide and 5 squares deep of enemies? No problem. Ride straight through them (with no special movement or action) to the other side without attacks of opportunities.
The Cavalier and the Mount share the same space and are considered one creature when mounted so I don't think that would apply.
I don't know the rules that well. Do you know where the rules say that a cavalier and mount are considered one creature?
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I say you and your horse AC both take the "Swap Places" teamwork feat and then instead of you riding your horse; your horse can ride you. If that doesn't give you weird looks at the table I don't know what will.
Edit: I hear that's what they do in Russia at least.
I don't know the rules that well. Do you know where the rules say that a cavalier and mount are considered one creature?
They say it nowhere. Some think of it that way purely relying on intuition, as near as I can tell. If it worked this way, then the Horsemaster's Saddle (wondrous item) would make no sense at:
This ornate military saddle, tooled with an elaborate equine motif, grants the mount a +5 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks and the mount's rider a +5 competence bonus on Ride checks. In addition, the mount gains the benefits of any teamwork feats possessed by the rider.
If mounts and riders were not able to team up, this benefit would be useless.
You bolded the wrong sentence. The mount functions as a Druid's animal companion. Horse and Camel are Druid animal companions with stats laid out in the CRB. Not even Cavaliers get to pick a CR2 creature for a mount and then advance it as if it were a companion.
Mount (Ex): A cavalier gains the service of a loyal and trusty steed to carry him into battle. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the cavalier's level as his effective druid level. The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount. A Medium cavalier can select a camel or a horse. A Small cavalier can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level. The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts.
Here we get into the weeds, of course, but I read that "functions as" line to mean that the mount functions that way mechanically, level progression and such, using the cavaliers effective druid level. It doesn't say anything about mount selection being restricted to animal companion types.
If the GM can approve other mounts, then the GM can approve other mounts.
Not being hip the the way PFS has handled this "RAW", I can only tell you how I'd read it and play it at my table.
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In my game the DM approved mount for the cavalier was a Roc. It was awesome. He did not start with it of course (I think he got it around level 9 or 10ish?....I don't recall exactly). I parsed that paragraph to mean:
1) which mounts are available? The creature must be one that he is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount.
2) how do they work? This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the cavalier's level as his effective druid level.
3) what do they start with? A Medium cavalier can select a camel or a horse. A Small cavalier can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level. The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts (see 1 above).
Flying lance Cavalier after raising the bird captured from a roc nest (it took several years).