I still think Bandits shouldn't gain any benefits to their SAD unless they've already been flagged for some time before they issue it.
I agree. This should apply to any skill spell or action that can move a character from nonPVP to PVP status.
Ah, excellent! It's now open season for personal insults and attacks.
Since labeling people with the word jerk seems fine I'll ensure all my posts about people I don't like are like that.
I also take it this post by jerk Nihimon no longer appiles?
We should all take a vow to assume that every single post starts with a sincere "It is my opinion that..." I think it would alleviate a lot of bickering.
I'll begin my search of the entire forums to highlight any lies and mistruths so jerk Nihimon can add those posters to his jerk/liar file.
I'm curious here*--what do you anticipate happening if the benefits are granted fairly quickly? After all, doesn't it take some time to get de-flagged?
*Actual curious, not "passive aggressive" curious.
Goblin Squad Member
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That's certainly a reasonable starting point....We should all take a vow to assume that every single post starts with a sincere "It is my opinion that..." I think it would alleviate a lot of bickering.
When discussing the mechanics of the game, it does no good to have people throwing out imaginings and wishes intermingled with the facts as we should know them.
Meh. We're all grown ups, or at least old enough that our parents allow us onto the internet without supervision. We should be responsible for what we write, and write responsible things we're willing to stand behind. The reason our language has words like 'might' and 'could' and 'should' is because sometimes 'is' isn't the right word. It takes 8 characters to type 'I think ', compared to however many characters we spend cleaning up confusion afterwards.
When discussing the mechanics of the game, it does no good to have people throwing out imaginings and wishes intermingled with the facts as we should know them.That's certainly a reasonable starting point....We should all take a vow to assume that every single post starts with a sincere "It is my opinion that..." I think it would alleviate a lot of bickering.
I agree.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always heard Ryan describe EVE's atmosphere as toxic / a murder sim. So I absolutely see Bluddwolf as an advocate of murder sims and it seems to me as if he holds all players who don't want that in contempt.
In no way do I think EVE is a murder simulator.
Seems Andius doesn't. I expect Nihimon to label him a liar and a jerk from now on.
Nihimon has already stated an intention to use Auto Hotkey in another topic so it doesn't surprise me he favors a system that is impossible to manage manually.Perhaps you'd do me the honor of letting me explain my own positions. Your characterization is unflattering and untrue.
Nihimon has already called him out on some untruths. Wonder why now 'jerk' or 'liar' terms though? Oh, that's right. They're allies in game.
And we all know, as long as you say something here it must be true.
Rant on attacking people in the game because of posts on the forums
Whatever have the seventh veil crawled into bed with?!?
@ Monty Wolf
You can't control what other's say and do. You can only control what you say and do. Right now (IMO), you are just making yourself and the UNC look bad.
Consider giving it a rest. ;)
Why?
You think it is fine if jerk Nihimon attacks people and calls them liars and jerks, but when others present similar evidence against his allies it makes the messenger appear bad?
Does it make TEO look bad when Andius lies?
Does it make the seventh veil look bad when labeling people jerks and liars and being passive aggressive.
Take issue with their posts if that is what you think.
If you outright label someone a liar and a jerk expect some response especially when the person so often talks about taking the high moral ground.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And we all know, as long as you say something here it must be true.
Rant on attacking people in the game because of posts on the forums
Whatever have the seventh veil crawled into bed with?!?
Thanks for that link Monty, I'll make sure I don't read that thread any further.
[sarcasm]
Perhaps we could have a list of threads that there has been a robust discussion between Nihimon & Co. and UNC & Co. That way I (and those of my ilk) can avoid them.
[/sarcasm]
On another note I need more self-control to avoid checking (and posting in) this thread. Actually I believe there is an ignore widgit I could use. The downside to that is I won't know if anyone replied to my witty and insightful remarks. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why consider giving it a rest? Because the way that the back and forth has been done (for more than a year) has solved nothing. Absolutely nothing is accomplished, although I suspect that all parties believe there is a score card or something incredibly valuable to gain or lose.
To me, you all just look silly. To me, I feel silly for ever taking part in either side.
It is just a bit of advice. If you really must, don't let me keep you from carrying on.
Why consider giving it a rest? Because the way that the back and forth has been done (for more than a year) has solved nothing. Absolutely nothing is accomplished, although I suspect that all parties believe there is a score card or something incredibly valuable to gain or lose.
To me, you all just look silly. To me, I feel silly for ever taking part in either side.
It is just a bit of advice. If you really must, don't let me keep you from carrying on.
Your right on the point scoring.
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Everyone, I have an announcement to make.
Seeing as I have become aware of an exceedingly substantial divide between my character's own moral compass and the compasses of others, and seeing as this thread has proven to be an exceptionally unhealthy locale for those of an ethical bent, and seeing as there are very few suitably despicable locations on the forums these days, I have determined that this is obviously the ideal place for Grickin the Evil Druid to reside.
As such, I will be setting up shop here. Other evil characters are welcome to stop by, as long as they bring their own shovels and railguns and implements of destruction. I was going to put a rack by the door with a bunch of weapons people could borrow, but TSV and UNC stole them all to play Cowboys and Indians in the backyard. With real weapons. Damn kids.
As such, we will not be offering the "Take a weapon, leave a weapon" program, but feel free to chill out, watch some TV, and eat a live bunny or two. Because that's what evil people do, dammit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always heard Ryan describe EVE's atmosphere as toxic / a murder sim. So I absolutely see Bluddwolf as an advocate of murder sims and it seems to me as if he holds all players who don't want that in contempt.In no way do I think EVE is a murder simulator.Seems Andius doesn't. I expect Nihimon to label him a liar and a jerk from now on.
See, the cool thing here is both you and Andius both did it right. You both clearly stated what was conjecture or opinion, not fact. Look at it again, with the caveats bolded:
I agree.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always heard Ryan describe EVE's atmosphere as toxic / a murder sim. So I absolutely see Bluddwolf as an advocate of murder sims and it seems to me as if he holds all players who don't want that in contempt.In no way do I think EVE is a murder simulator.Seems Andius doesn't. I expect Nihimon to label him a liar and a jerk from now on.
And yes, it might be a little amusing that Andius used that 'correct me if I'm wrong', then got corrected by Ryan. But you should be able to see how he worked those caveats in there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I feel that the usefull thing to come from this thread is for us to start using a new and exiting meme! We should find the PFO forum equivalent of "Thanks, Obama!" In the form of "Thanks, <name of influential forum poster>!".
I propose "Thanks, Kobold Cleaver!"
Further nominations are welcome!
PS: note that this is not supposed to equate the person in questions to Obama but the person in question is welcome to be offended by it anyway just to be on the save side as the spirit of this thread dictates.
Still haven't got the hang of this econony yet.
You're welcome.
EDIT: Wow, two Homestuck references in one day. Guess that's my quota for the next month or so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why consider giving it a rest? Because the way that the back and forth has been done (for more than a year) has solved nothing. Absolutely nothing is accomplished, although I suspect that all parties believe there is a score card or something incredibly valuable to gain or lose.
To me, you all just look silly. To me, I feel silly for ever taking part in either side.
It is just a bit of advice. If you really must, don't let me keep you from carrying on.
Your right on the point scoring.
I was actually aware of Andius' post on COTP's forums, but I took no offense by from it. Even his own members tried to talk him down. I have doubts his stepping down was completely by his choice. I have doubt he will last in PFO, probably not even all the way through EE. I don't expect Nihimon to last all that long either, nor most of those that side with their views. I state this opinion on the belief that there will be far too much PvP in PFO for them to handle. They have painted themselves into an impossible corner, to be protectors of a gaming community that does not exist.
It is very likely that PFO will be EvE with swords, sure with a few more protections, but still damn near close enough to be labeled a clone. The OE crowd is going to be spearheaded by a wave of EvE players, and a majority of them will be cut throats. They will be hungry for another sandbox open world PvP MMO. They will see how accessible PvP is in PFO, especially with its minimal consequences for death.
The UNC and I will sit back and enjoy the show. We will watch our numbers swell, because our playstyle is what they are looking for.
So I say to my members, let Andius and Nihimon have their say. Their threats mean nothing. I have as much confidence in their willingness to engage in PvP as they have confidence to defend themselves or their charges. Needless to say I have little confidence in them.
TEO and T7V as organizations need not be concerned that UNC will specifically target them. I don't hold them wholly responsible for their member's actions or words.
Needless to say, this will all be resolved the first week of Open Enrollment. Personally, I'm confident that good will triumph. That's why I'm joining Team Evil. ;D
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Bluddwolf
I think that you may be surprised by the numbers of players that will fight very hard against absolute anarchy. I also think that you underestimate the persons that you have named, and their organizations, to do the same. That is all they want. Some order to the PVP., not the absence of PVP.
Talk is cheap.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why consider giving it a rest? Because the way that the back and forth has been done (for more than a year) has solved nothing. Absolutely nothing is accomplished, although I suspect that all parties believe there is a score card or something incredibly valuable to gain or lose.
To me, you all just look silly. To me, I feel silly for ever taking part in either side.
It is just a bit of advice. If you really must, don't let me keep you from carrying on.
Your right on the point scoring.
I was actually aware of Andius' post on COTP's forums, but I took no offense by from it. Even his own members tried to talk him down. I have doubts his stepping down was completely by his choice. I have doubt he will last in PFO, probably not even all the way through EE. I don't expect Nihimon to last all that long either, nor most of those that side with their views. I state this opinion on the belief that there will be far too much PvP in PFO for them to handle. They have painted themselves into an impossible corner, to be protectors of a gaming community that does not exist.
It is very likely that PFO will be EvE with swords, sure with a few more protections, but still damn near close enough to be labeled a clone. The OE crowd is going to be spearheaded by a wave of EvE players, and a majority of them will be cut throats. They will be hungry for another sandbox open world PvP MMO. They will see how accessible PvP is in PFO, especially with its minimal consequences for death.
The UNC and I will sit back and enjoy the show. We will watch our numbers swell, because our playstyle is what they are looking for.
So I say to my members, let Andius and Nihimon have their say. Their threats mean nothing. I have as much confidence in their willingness to engage in PvP as they have confidence to defend...
What? Is this serious? Interesting and laughable at the same time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Bluddwolf
I think that you may be surprised by the numbers of players that will fight very hard against absolute anarchy. I also think that you underestimate the persons that you have named, and their organizations, to do the same. That is all they want. Some order to the PVP., not the absence of PVP.
Talk is cheap.
Who said anything about absolute anarchy?
PvP in EvE is anything but anarchy, you'd be surprised the amount of preparations go into even a PvP Roam, not to mention a War Dec.
I specifically separated the individuals from their organizations.
But you are correct, all will be revealed in EE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Bluddwolf
I think that you may be surprised by the numbers of players that will fight very hard against absolute anarchy. I also think that you underestimate the persons that you have named, and their organizations, to do the same. That is all they want. Some order to the PVP., not the absence of PVP.
Talk is cheap.
Who said anything about absolute anarchy?
PvP in EvE is anything but anarchy, you'd be surprised the amount of preparations go into even a PvP Roam, not to mention a War Dec.
I specifically separated the individuals from their organizations.
But you are correct, all will be revealed in EE.
Just throwing out a counter opinion based on assumption. If there isn't complete anarchy then I don't think that anyone will have anything valid to complain about at all. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Speaking only for myself, I don't think, even after OE, that PFO will fall to the "Murder-sim" crowd. I say this because I have hope and faith in the GW team to be vigilant and quick to adapt to the influx that will come with OE. I am also having faith in the EE community, that has been so passionately vocal on these forums the last year+, to band together and put our differences aside should that need to happen. I truly believe that we can survive the influx and retain the beautiful and well crafted game that GW is working on. The video's they have teased us with should a beautiful game, and we are helping to ensure PFO is a place for all to enjoy and find something to do.
The UNC does not want to see PFO fall, nor see it turned into a murder sim. Yeah we want to "r@pe, murder and pillage," but not to the point of griefing and running people off. The less people playing PFO means the less targets we have to apply our crafts to. Besides that, we desire powerful enemies. We want the larger "good guy" companies to live on and threaten to remove us from their lands. They will be our content as much as we are theirs.
I'm rambling and I am sorry. Point made. (I think)
Yes bludd and xeen are blunt, gruff, and rude. But as some have mentioned before (In the thread I think) bludd really has evolved his thinking and tamed his posts in an attempt to get more accomplished. Even others have said for all parties to move on. Yes there are those who are still stirring the pot (Stares are Monty) but its because they enjoy conflict. That isn't always a bad thing, but it isn't really productive normally either. You want to hate each other, that's your business. I only ask that in these last few months, as crowd forging starting to pick up and really kick off, that EVERYONE puts personal feelings aside and focus and discuss the topic at hand.
I have a feeling that near future blogs will lead into dev started forum threads that will ask a question or describe a mechanic/concept to be crowd forged. If/when this happens, I am asking that all the petty name calling and personal bashing from all parties be stopped. Discuss the topic, argue points pertaining to topic ONLY, and move on.
I think most threads start out with the above in mind, but because there is SOOOOOO MUCH assumptions and TBD and unknown specifics that it causes people to start stating them as facts and start arguments. SADs are a great example. Honestly, not much other then "They will exist" has been given out concerning them by the Devs. And yet, we have pages and pages on atleast a few threads discussing that single mechanic. With so little info, how can we discuss it?
I honestly think one of the reasons why I am taking this stance lately is due to my natural ability to truly see things from several points of view. I can see why people are so upset at bludd and xeen and a few others (myself included), but I can also see where the "other side" are at fault and just the same as we are, just in a different context. The thing is, everyone involved is truly doing what they believe to be in the best interest of the game. Neither side is right, or wrong, but rather both depending on the particular moment. If we can all understand this and move on, I think things will get better.
Now I might still stab Nihimon and Andius in the face first encounter in EE, but that is just my character. :-) No hard feelings right?
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It is very likely that PFO will be EvE with swords, sure with a few more protections, but still damn near close enough to be labeled a clone. The OE crowd is going to be spearheaded by a wave of EvE players, and a majority of them will be cut throats. They will be hungry for another sandbox open world PvP MMO. They will see how accessible PvP is in PFO, especially with its minimal consequences for death.The UNC and I will sit back and enjoy the show. We will watch our numbers swell, because our playstyle is what they are looking for.
Is that what you expect to happen, what you want to happen, or what you intend to bring about?
Because I actively intend to prevent the scenarios that you describe from coming about. Although if you simply remove the griefing behaviors (e.g. can flipping, outing people for harassment with the intent of causing them to commit suicide) from your scenario it matches mine closely enough.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ The Goodfellow
I agree with what you have said (Man what a wall!). I am also conscious that it is a two way street and it is not easy for either side to walk away from a slight. Many of the things said by the other side look (to me) like misunderstanding of intentions: "These guys don't want ANY PVP and they are carebears."... "Those guys want a murder sim and they are griefers"
Then things get out of hand as both sides just talk past each other. I doubt all of this will do much good, as I think that it is epeen based or possibly propaganda driven, but let's hope that things get better. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is very likely that PFO will be EvE with swords, sure with a few more protections, but still damn near close enough to be labeled a clone. The OE crowd is going to be spearheaded by a wave of EvE players, and a majority of them will be cut throats. They will be hungry for another sandbox open world PvP MMO. They will see how accessible PvP is in PFO, especially with its minimal consequences for death.The UNC and I will sit back and enjoy the show. We will watch our numbers swell, because our playstyle is what they are looking for.
Is that what you expect to happen, what you want to happen, or what you intend to bring about?
Because I actively intend to prevent the scenarios that you describe from coming about. Although if you simply remove the griefing behaviors (e.g. can flipping, outing people for harassment with the intent of causing them to commit suicide) from your scenario it matches mine closely enough.
Expect....Want.....Intend......
I mostly expect it to happen. MMO hopping is very common, and there have been so few sandbox open world PvP MMOs out there, it think it is very reasonable to make the assumption.
Wanting it to happen is a mixed bag. I think we all want a large server population, and since they have to come from somewhere, I'd rather they come from an MMO that is similar to what PFO is hoping to be. Make no mistake, GW would do cartwheels down the halls if they could match the success of EvE Online.
Intend is a bit trickery. I do intend to bring a number of players (dozens, not hundreds or thousands) over from the other games that UNC are currently or expecting to be playing between now and EE. For the most part, these players are more PvP focused and yes some of them have been brought up in games that have very limited rules on player behavior. This leads me to my next "intention"....
The UNC intends to take in this small horde and temper their lunacy to levels that are acceptable to what GW will tolerate. This means no griefing, inspite of what Andius or Nihimon and others might believe. GW will define the actions that they consider griefing for PFO. Those actions will not be done by me, and I will strongly discourage my members from doing them as well.
UNC intentions: We intend to play the bad guys, but within the rules of the game. We have been upfront about this, probably more so than anyone expected. I would have thought that some of the outrage of brutal honesty would have worn off by now.
This has been said many times before, but I will add something that has not been said yet. EE will show us all what kind of game we are playing in. This is specifically true for once settlement conflict is switched on. Everything else prior to that is not PFO, it is artificial and it is particularly artificially peaceful. I would not suggest growing too attached to the early EE culture of PFO. It will change at least twice in dramatic fashion.
I think it is somewhat in this last point I disagree ever so slightly with The Goodfellow. I believe that the EE crowd is going to have to adapt more so to OE, than the OE crowd will adopt EE's culture as their own. At the very least, EE has the heavier lift.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Cool, it has calmed down. Anyway, I think this thread has about served its purpose to relieve some of the tension that was ebbing up between people on a personal level (at least it did for me just watching it unfold).
Either way, I think it is about time to let it fall into the murks of the forum, to be forever left until that darn kid kobold comes and necros it for the lolz (I'm just playing, KC)
That said...
In reply to (but not inherently at) Bringslite.
Yes this was propaganda. It was propaganda for how fed up I was with people bringing things up on other threads when it should be in private. What spurred me finally was when Being, or someone, told me to make a thread for this, and to quit bringing up an issue for UNC.
But I am better now, and I feel like the rest of the forum is to, at least a little. The recent posts in all the other threads (to my knowledge) are really constructive, and you haven't had my corrosive personality around to sabotage things! I'd say a win-win all around.
Think how silly we will all feel looking back during OE at this thread. Good times. good times.
Goodfellow you rock sox, keep preachin. Same with Nihimon (at least in other places xD didn't read anything you said here really...)
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Goblin Squad Member
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UNC intentions: We intend to play the bad guys
I think you are your own worst enemy and perhaps should consider letting someone else be the mouth for your organization. There are going to be bad guys in Pathfinder Online, this is obvious to any true follower of PO as [so far] Goblinworks has stated you will be able to kill innocent players with pretty heavy consequences. However, what you are doing (albeit unknowingly) is painting your organization to be the "simple" bad guy. There is no depth, weight, reasoning or well-thought out canon for why you want to be bad, you simply just want to pillage, rape and and murder because it sounds exciting and fits your "playstyle." And don't get me wrong you have the right to play any way you'd like, just don't expect people to praise you for it.
Honestly, let's be clear, you only have yourself to blame for your poor description of your organization as shallow and destructive individuals sought on causing chaos for whatever simpleton reason you can come up with. Perhaps go back to the drawing board, create some weighty literature and history of why you all plan on pillaging Golarion, and try (try try) again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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UNC intentions: We intend to play the bad guysI think you are your own worst enemy and perhaps should consider letting someone else be the mouth for your organization. There are going to be bad guys in Pathfinder Online, this is obvious to any true follower of PO as [so far] Goblinworks has stated you will be able to kill innocent players with pretty heavy consequences. However, what you are doing (albeit unknowingly) is painting your organization to be the "simple" bad guy. There is no depth, weight, reasoning or well-thought out canon for why you want to be bad, you simply just want to pillage, rape and and murder because it sounds exciting and fits your "playstyle." And don't get me wrong you have the right to play any way you'd like, just don't expect people to praise you for it.
Honestly, let's be clear, you only have yourself to blame for your poor description of your organization as shallow and destructive individuals sought on causing chaos for whatever simpleton reason you can come up with. Perhaps go back to the drawing board, create some weighty literature and history of why you all plan on pillaging Golarion, and try (try try) again.
Why is there the need for complexity in what the role of bandits will be? Is it any less complex than a merchant company saying they want to buy stuff low and sell it high?
Besides, there is plenty of complexity or role playing rationale on our forums and in the company threads found on these forums.
As for who should be a mouth piece, we do not have an official mouth piece. All of the UNC members are free to speak their minds. If you want official statements as far as UNC policy, that is in the other thread.
The weighty literature will likely not happen, although I do have a character background written here in my bio. The UNCs background will be developed after EE, so that we may use elements of the actual game to develop those ideas.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the UNC. They will unwittingly help me roleplay a monk with a vow of poverty.
A doubt your monk will be a target of our banditry, unless he is running a caravan or outpost and has plenty of wealth and little or no protection.
Low reward no matter how easily attained, risks our precious time.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The UNC intends to take in this small horde and temper their lunacy to levels that are acceptable to what GW will tolerate. This means no griefing, inspite of what Andius or Nihimon and others might believe. GW will define the actions that they consider griefing for PFO. Those actions will not be done by me, and I will strongly discourage my members from doing them as well.
UNC intentions: We intend to play the bad guys, but within the rules of the game. We have been upfront about this, probably more so than anyone expected. I would have thought that some of the outrage of brutal honesty would have worn off by now.
This has been said many times before, but I will add something that has not been said yet. EE will show us all what kind of game we are playing in. This is specifically true for once settlement conflict is switched on. Everything else prior to that is not PFO, it is artificial and it is particularly artificially peaceful. I would not suggest growing too attached to the early EE culture of PFO. It will change at least twice in dramatic fashion.
It's my personal position that trying to find and walk the line at which a weakly defined rule (like the policy on Griefing, but not like the strongly defined and malleable mechanic of Reputation) is enforced is a violation of the intent (and thus the letter) of that rule. Your policy statement sounded to me to be the same as "We will be almost, but not technically, Griefers."
That perception was mostly formed when you discouraged a new player who was scared of open PvP, and your defense was "He said it was a dealbreaker". It's been reinforced every time you've used "The game isn't fully finished yet" as a justification for interpreting a rule in a way that I don't think is supported by the developer's statements (In particular, claiming that it makes sense to use SAD for anything other than frank extortion, including "taxation" but not including any cases where getting coin and/or items is not a primary goal.
I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else to change your mind; I'm trying to explain why I have formed the position I have, in a way where it's obvious to me where I might have erred.
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Goblin Squad Member
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UNC intentions: We intend to play the bad guysI think you are your own worst enemy and perhaps should consider letting someone else be the mouth for your organization. There are going to be bad guys in Pathfinder Online, this is obvious to any true follower of PO as [so far] Goblinworks has stated you will be able to kill innocent players with pretty heavy consequences. However, what you are doing (albeit unknowingly) is painting your organization to be the "simple" bad guy. There is no depth, weight, reasoning or well-thought out canon for why you want to be bad, you simply just want to pillage, rape and and murder because it sounds exciting and fits your "playstyle." And don't get me wrong you have the right to play any way you'd like, just don't expect people to praise you for it.
Honestly, let's be clear, you only have yourself to blame for your poor description of your organization as shallow and destructive individuals sought on causing chaos for whatever simpleton reason you can come up with. Perhaps go back to the drawing board, create some weighty literature and history of why you all plan on pillaging Golarion, and try (try try) again.
Why is there the need for complexity in what the role of bandits will be? Is it any less complex than a merchant company saying they want to buy stuff low and sell it high?
Besides, there is plenty of complexity or role playing rationale on our forums and in the company threads found on these forums.
As for who should be a mouth piece, we do not have an official mouth piece. All of the UNC members are free to speak their minds. If you want official statements as far as UNC policy, that is in the other thread.
The weighty literature will likely not happen, although I do have a character background written here in my bio. The UNCs background will be developed after EE, so that we may use elements of the actual game to develop those ideas.
I think you are missing the well outlined point in my previous post. I'm not speaking for every bandit organization; I'm speaking specifically about your particular bunch. I'll make it more simple, if you post like a goon, people are going to think you (and probably the people you keep company with) are goons. Which is quite fine if that's how you'd like your organization to be portrayed. But, if you desire a more elegant, or perhaps a more finely-tuned reputation, earn one. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Get it? Reap what you sow? C'mon, work with me here.
Edit: I will however applaud you all for the past few posts you've made, they are definitely more finely-tuned and at least try to explain your logic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Nevy
I think that I grok what you are getting at. Not speaking for Bluddwolf, but my impression is that the discord around some of his posts doesn't really bother him all that much. Certainly not as much as it annoys those that read through it all of the time.
To be fair, I don't think that those things are of much concern to those that argue with him either. I am not really sure that it can be and still have open exchange here. There are some things, though that I would not mind they exchange in PMs instead. :)
@ Nevy
I think that I grok what you are getting at. Not speaking for Bluddwolf, but my impression is that the discord around some of his posts doesn't really bother him all that much. Certainly not as much as it annoys those that read through it all of the time.
Someone had to fill my shoes. OK, there's my daily post. Goodbye.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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This thread got long fast. I wonder if the forums will be more or less explosive once you can actually kill each other in game :) .
I started skimming around the third page, but I want to hit some points/give you guys some current official quotes to fling at one another ;) .
Stand and Deliver
Stand and Deliver was something we had kicking around the office as a vague concept before we read anything from the great Bandit vs. Paladin war of 2012. But it was in the vein of "hopefully we can get the bandits to be all 'Stand and Deliver' rather than just jumping straight to killing all the time." After the heated response to our initial alignment mechanics post, we invented the permanent alignment flags, decided to give a benefit to each one, and decided that SAD would be good for the Chaotic flag. I don't recall anyone specifically being responsible, but I was reading the forums at the time and it's possible I remembered a suggestion without remembering its attribution.
Later, we realized that alignment flags were likely to be a distraction from the organizational PvP that was meant to be the focus of PFO, so removed them and tried to redistribute functionality we thought was still cool to other areas. We haven't done any major design work on Stand and Deliver since then, as we wanted to get the core systems that it sits on implemented first. We'll probably start thinking about it seriously again soon, and we've been informed by the potential loopholes everyone's been pointing out for the last year, so hopefully we'll be able to make it into a system that, if we can't make everyone happy, at least makes everyone equally unhappy ;) .
Hostility
The attacker flag doesn't exist anymore. The hostile states generated by attacking an unflagged target are more nuanced. I usually have to get Tork and Lee to draw me a diagram on the whiteboard once we start talking about group interactions of it, so I don't feel up to explaining it in detail on a lazy Sunday afternoon. But it might make a good video blog topic sometime soon (where I can make Tork be on camera instead of me :) ).
You will almost certainly be able to tell that a target is in a party (and possibly that party's size) when you attack him, to know that you're about to "tag in" (and potentially suffer rep loss for) multiple opponents. Allies that are not part of the target's party are unlikely to be tagged in by an attack. I believe there's some additional nuance on tagging in a whole party if the person you attack is hostile to you, but that will, again, have to wait for a blog video.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks for chiming in Stephen, it is good to see you can sort through the insanity and bickering and focus in on the issues.
As for if the forums will be less explosive once EE begins, I can only speak for myself. I intend to be raiding caravans and outposts, not posting as much in forums.
If you could, this being a "slow Sunday", any word on caravans?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thank you Stephen for chiming in. I must admit I was surprised to see a dev post in here as this seamed very poster vs poster in topic and content. But nevertheless, your input about some of the issues are very welcome and appreciated.
As I have said in previous posts, I'm convinced that a majority of these arguments on these forums come from not enough info and people taking the little we have and posting assumptions and desires and others taking those posts as near fact. But I digress.
Not sure if this is "On topic" for this thread but it is going here anyway LOL. I am glad to hear that the SAD mechanic will receive some long awaited love soon, and I thank you for the explanation for the lack of info about it. Now that we are aware of what is going on with it, maybe us forum posters can relax a bit on SAD and just wait. (Good luck, yeah I know LOL)
With the hostility topic, I personally don't like the idea of "Possibly knowing the size of a party" that a person is in. I can live with knowing if someone is in a group or not, but the size I think isn't needed and would be TMI (Too much info). I think a video blog would be wonderful (especially with a diagram??) for this topic. One question for you (Devs) and maybe to the forum for crowdforging, do the rep/alignment hits get taken when you attack 1 member of the group, or only based on what you actually hit.
To illustrate what I mean, UNC has 5 guys, Andius has 5 guys, both groups facing off at each other and neither are currently flagged. If I stab Andius in the face, do I lose "1 person worth" of rep/alignment (cause I only attacked 1 person) or do I lose "5 people worth" as he is in a group and i'm now hostile to the whole group?
For me, I am torn as I think it might cause some major overhead to track (especially big fights) who has hit who and lost what (rep/alignment wise), but at the same time, if I announce that I have beef with Andius and not his whole group, I don't wanna take hits for the whole group. (such as if he is the target of my assassination contract)
Ok this last part is totally in the wrong thread but i'm too lazy to drag it to where it goes. LOL Again, thank you Stephen for posting and giving us a little bit of clarity on these 2 topics.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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You count as attacking everyone who will be able to attack you back for purposes of hostility, crime, and losing alignment and rep. If you just got linked to the one person you attacked, his party members wouldn't be able to help without losing rep themselves (unless what you did was also a crime). If you didn't get a hit for everyone but they all got tagged in, it'd be pretty easy to kick off the fight against the target for whom you'd get the least penalties. Thus, the solution we landed on after a lot of discussion was just treating the whole group as being attacked when you attacked one individual (in most cases), necessitating telling you you're about to get a hit for more than one target. I'll try to get them to point the video camera at a whiteboard so they can draw the diagrams for you :) .
Caravans still have a lot of tech dependencies as to how we'll be able to get them working so we can't really tell you anything yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I had always assumed that the number of characters in a grouping would be the multiplier for reputation impacts.
This us why I wrote the thread "If I were a Merchant I Would Opt Out". It would only take 3 or at most 4 merchant alt haulers unaffiliated with any player company or settlement to produce a reputation bomb. Regardless of the amount of wealth these haulers are carrying, they are shielded from attack unless the bandit gang are willing to immediately going to -7500 rep.
My hope is that caravans will be treated in the same manner as raiding outposts and POIs. If not that, than some form of flagging would handle it as well.
It was actually a lot easier to conceive of actions to be taken when there was the a Outlaw, Traveler and Enforcer Flags.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I had always assumed that the number of characters in a grouping would be the multiplier for reputation impacts.
This us why I wrote the thread "If I were a Merchant I Would Opt Out". It would only take 3 or at most 4 merchant alt haulers unaffiliated with any player company or settlement to produce a reputation bomb. Regardless of the amount of wealth these haulers are carrying, they are shielded from attack unless the bandit gang are willing to immediately going to -7500 rep.
My hope is that caravans will be treated in the same manner as raiding outposts and POIs. If not that, than some form of flagging would handle it as well.
It was actually a lot easier to conceive of actions to be taken when there was the a Outlaw, Traveler and Enforcer Flags.
Well they have been clear about discouraging PVP outside of the preferred ways. Perhaps the SAD will turn out to be something that counters the danger of that "rep bomb" and discourage ambush outside of preferred PVP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This us why I wrote the thread "If I were a Merchant I Would Opt Out". It would only take 3 or at most 4 merchant alt haulers unaffiliated with any player company or settlement to produce a reputation bomb. Regardless of the amount of wealth these haulers are carrying, they are shielded from attack unless the bandit gang are willing to immediately going to -7500 rep.
I'd think it might depend on how SAD works now; if there's a potential reputation bomb the SAD might be able to avoid it. They might not be perfectly shielded. (edit: ninjaed!)
It was actually a lot easier to conceive of actions to be taken when there was the a Outlaw, Traveler and Enforcer Flags.
I'd offer that even when we had those alignment-based PvP flags there was a lot we were never told. How they worked in parties, for starters.
I believe there's some additional nuance on tagging in a whole party if the person you attack is hostile to you, but that will, again, have to wait for a blog video.
I'm looking forward to seeing that nuance bit.