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Acaphalus:
Bravo weapons used to be more specific, but was wordy and confusing. At the suggestion of rainsax, who made the strong point that I should offer incentive to using a single weapon instead of prohibiting other options. So I simplified it. Today, I have succumbed to input once again. It now reads: "Many bravo class features refer to bravo weapons, which are melee weapons not wielded two-handed or in an off hand." Please discuss.
That seems clear enough, although maybe it should be "manufactured melee weapons" rather than all melee weapons. Unless you want to allow touch spells and natural weapons. That could be relevant when multiclassing with Magus (pretty good ability overlap) or Druid (a bit funkier).
Regarding multiclassing: Bravo is pretty dippable, comparable to Ranger and Monk I'd say. It's also pretty suitable for multiclassing with other lightly armored classes such as those. I think that's fine as it is right now. Every level of Bravo gives something, so there'll always be the temptation to go full Bravo.
I'm not sure about allowing touch spells and natural weapons as bravo weapons. I think it goes counter to the flavor a bit, especially for the natural weapons. You're not really one-handing it if you're also making tail and horn attacks at the same time. I'd be lenient on the touch spells though; a Bravo/Magus multiclass seems pretty sweet and flavourvul to me. Renaming it "manufactured melee weapons" would enable Magi to deliver spells with Spellstrike as a Bravo weapon, but not touch spells without Spellstrike. That's precisely right, as far as I'm concerned.
It's interesting that the focus is on just using one hand to attack, not on having the other hand free. Lots of mechanics elsewhere obsess about the free hand, but I can see people in this class holding a torch in the off hand, and actually using that to feint.
If I understand the 2W rules correctly, you might even be wielding two weapons, as long as you divide your iterative attacks between them (not gaining addditional attacks for 2WF), and also still meet the bravo weapon requirements. I have no objections against that.
I updated Lunge. I think it can now do what I want it to, and what you want it to. "Lunge: as a free action before using a standard action to make an attack, he can move one quarter his speed directly towards the target of the attack. He must end the movement in the closest square from which he can attack. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the target." Is it too long? I find that happened in these critiques. Extra wording to support intent.
I like it, and it seems pretty clear what it does, not too wordy. The intent is much clearer now: moving that extra square, or even ducking past Reach if needed. You could use a normal Move up until just into someone's Reach, then Lunge the last bit you need. Which is actually a pretty cool ability if fighting pikemen or larger monsters!
The way I read it right now, it does allow you to use Lunge->Compound Attack, because Lunge doesn't insist on the Attack Action, just any attack done as a standard action. I think that's good; your class features should work together unless there's a good reason for them not to. Also, Lunge->Cleave would be legal; again, good. And Lunge->Vital Strike would also be possible.
Compound Attack and Vital Strike can't be combined, which I guess isn't unreasonable; having both secure to-hit and heightened damage might be a bit too much having you cake and eating it too.
I put in your new Debilitating Attack, with a few tiny tweaks. I completely agree about 2 points, and it is advice I have offered before to another. I only put 1 so it would remain a lesser option. I like what you have done though. One concern though. The conditions not stacking. Is it really OP for them to not stack? I don't see this coming into play often. My intent with these special attacks was to encourage the enemy to stay focussed on the bravo. If the enemy does what the bravo wants, then the bravo won't be making many attacks of opportunity.
I think the 2pts is still a lesser option because you're not sure it'll be to something useful. Causing 2 Charisma damage is only rarely relevant.
As for not stacking: I was being cautious. It seems lately most things that cause Shaken have a non-stacking clause in it. Although just because X can't upgrade Shaken to Frightened, doesn't mean that Y can't aggravate X's Shaken condition to Frightened. There's not much symmetry going on here; I think Paizo's allowed this part of the rules to get a bit messy.
At first I experimented with language that would let you aggravate Shaken but not Sickened, because Sickened is much worse than Shaken. But it resulted in an ugly wall of text. I would rather not do Nauseated, because it's close to stunlocking, and I believe that Paizo attempted to minimize the possibilities for stunlocking intentionally.
And finally, I might agree with you about the hammer guy, but I like the pic too much. I had a hell of a time finding good ones that don't have swords. And he looks pretty sweet standing next to the capstone!
It is indeed a nice picture. Looks a bit Shoanti to me.
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Also. The "Extra Fighting Style" as name suggests learning another fighting style, rather than more duration. How about "Extra Style Rounds" instead?
What is the bonus type of the Fighting Style bonus to AC and attacks? The next paragraph talks about a competence bonus; is that only to the skills or also to AC and attacks? I don't think there is such a thing as a competence bonus to AC...
Verynice class, I like it. Do you intend to have more fighting styles? Cause right now the bravo can get all five styles during his carrer. He is not choosing which styles he wants, but in what order he wants to get them. Couple more techniques would open up the possible builds.
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That seems clear enough, although maybe it should be "manufactured melee weapons" rather than all melee weapons. Unless you want to allow touch spells and natural weapons. That could be relevant when multiclassing with Magus (pretty good ability overlap) or Druid (a bit funkier).
Regarding multiclassing: Bravo is pretty dippable, comparable to Ranger and Monk I'd say. It's also pretty suitable for multiclassing with other lightly armored classes such as those. I think that's fine as it is right now. Every level of Bravo gives something, so there'll always be the temptation to go full Bravo.
I'm not sure about allowing touch spells and natural weapons as bravo weapons. I think it goes counter to the flavor a bit, especially for the natural weapons. You're not really one-handing it if you're also making tail and horn attacks at the same time. I'd be lenient on the touch spells though; a Bravo/Magus multiclass seems pretty sweet and flavourvul to me. Renaming it "manufactured melee weapons" would enable Magi to deliver spells with Spellstrike as a Bravo weapon, but not touch spells without Spellstrike. That's precisely right, as far as I'm concerned.
Maybe that should be "unarmed strikes and manufactured melee weapons", so as to not exclude a priori monk/bravo combinations. And I can also imgine a bravo showing people who's boss in a bar brawl.
Asscaphalus::
I totally wanted to leave this open to unaramed attacks. If you're holding your weapon and have a free hand, you could even delcare the weapon your off-hand and use the class features to punch. Well lets have a talk about weapons. My understanding is that "weapons" includes manufactered weapons and unarmed attacks - the stuff that appears on the weapons list. Legally speaking, does "weapons" include touch attacks and natural attacks?
VM mercenario:
I have no plans to add more styles. I struggled enough with the five I have! They have changed many times in the last two years, but I will spare you the details. As you can see, I mentioned that these are the five most popular styles. I hoped that would allow for more in the future, without me doing the work. :)
rainsax:
very good... As with many things, I will have to take time to consider this, as it would require, I think, alteration of more than one class feature.
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As I understand it, there are several subclasses of weapons:
Melee vs. Ranged: obvious.
Manufactured vs. {Natural & Unarmed} vs. Spells
Since 3.0 you can take Weapon Focus (Ray). AFAIK, you can also do the same with Weapon Focus (Touch). Spells that include an attack roll are weapons.
Natural weapons are weapons, but not manufactured weapons. You can take Weapon Focus (Claw) - many Bestiary entries have those. But you can't cast Magic Weapon on a claw because it's not a manufactured weapon.
Unarmed Strikes occupy a bit wierd niche in this whole thing. They're weapons, they're not manufactured, but they're not the same as Natural Weapons - as attested by the Feral Combat Training feat.
In summary: if you say "unarmed strikes and manufactured melee weapons", you exclude rays, claws, bows and spells that are being delivered as a touch attack. But it doesn't stop a Magus from making a Spellstrike - the weapon used as a delivery mechanism profits from being a bravo weapon - the piggybacking spell isn't a bravo weapon though.
I understand. There is RAW and RAI, and then there are contradictions that are understood by those using the rules.
I just read the d20pfsrd.com Weapons page. According to this, unarmed strikes and improvised weapons are considered weapons, but there is no mention whatsoever of spells or touch attacks, and the only mention of natural attacks refers to proficiency. The first sentence of Natural Attacks, as it appears at d20pfsrd.com, defines them as attacks made without a weapon.
Despite all this, we both know there are things peppered throughout the rules that blur these "clear" lines. I am still hesitant to get any more specific.
On a different note, I'm looking at the equipment trick feat, and its giving me ideas. :)
Even if melee touch attacks are considered "weapons" (I have heard of people taking Weapon focus(touch attack), I think), I don't think you have a really serious balance issue on your hands. Worst cast scenario is that a wizard or something gives up a spellcasting level to have a few rounds of fighting in style.
Plus we have "All weapons deal hit point damage." Its not the touch attack that deals HP damage, its the spell it delivers.
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I'm fine with a bad touch caster dipping Bravo. Doesn't seem unreasonable really.
I'm more worried about natural weapons. According to Weapon Finesse, Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
Now, not all natural weapons can be said to be wielded in a single hand - certainly not bite attacks. But do Slam and Claw attacks count?
Can a druid who likes fighting as a Dire Tiger dip into Bravo for all the juicy bits?
Is that so much worse than them dipping fighter, monk, or barbarian or something? Monk would give the wisdom bonus to defense, after all.
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ideas:
fox - no AoO (^flat-footed), skill penalty
cobra - sickened (^nauseated), entangled
wolf - AC drop (^no withdraw/5-ft step), rend damage
lion - shaken (^frightened), lower spell resistance
hare - fatigued (^exhausted), confused
so, upon a feinted foe, bravo may choose to apply one basic status effect with a successful attack of opportunity. upon a doubly feinted foe, bravo may choose two status effects, or a greater status effect (denoted = "^"), etc. if the bravo is using multiple techniques, he may select from multiple lists.
also, as we are now discussing Area Feints again, Compound Attack might be one clever way to deliver that mechanic. we may also consider Elan (swift feint), a new mechanic entirely, incorporation into Engaging Feint (thus granting access at 3rd) or expansion into Deadly Strike (costing Elan?), or re-working Debilitating Feint, or a combination thereof.
nit-pick: i noticed that Fighting Techniques grants both a +2 to attack and a +2 to CMB while in wolf - thus a +4. intentional? pretty significant at 1st level methinks...
cheers
So, using fox, a bravo could apply "no AoO" or "skill penalty". If doubly feinted, he could apply "flat-footed". So what is doubly feinted and/or how is that achieved?
Presently, I am happy with the existing means to feint multiple foes, as there are now a few options, thanks to you presenting the concept.
I am OK with the wolf's better CMB bonus. Note that the +2 attack bonus won't help all combat maneuvers, and that he still provokes an AoO without a means to deny the AoO. Combat maneuvers, generally speaking, are already a less juicy option than attacking of casting a spell.
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doubly feinted:
bravo succeeds at feinting a foe whose DX bonus was already denied relative to him.
so, feinting a foe during the surprise round (who doesn't have Uncanny Dodge), or, using a swift feint (a la Elan) and then a move feint (a la Improved Feint) both successfully before attacking a foe.
Excaliburproxy is advocating DPR, i am advocating Battlefield Control and Debuffing.
imagine this:
Bravo Table
01- , ,
02- Bonus Feats, AC Bonus
03- Engaging Feint,
04- Elan
05- 2nd Fighting Technique
06- Bonus Feat, Compound Attack
07-
08- Amazing Elan
09- 3rd Fighting Technique
10- Bonus Feat,
11- Improved Compound Attack
12-
13- 4th Fighting Technique
14- Bonus Feat
15- Rapid Adaptation
16- Greater Compound Attack
17- 5th Fighting Technique
18- Bonus Feat
19- True Elan
20-
Fighting Style:
renamed. skill bonus persist for 1 hour after last focus.
Technique Focus:
divorced to be named discreetly. this refers to the rounds/day mechanic. you 'know' a fighting style, you 'activate' your focus. clarity here makes blending techniques (see later) easier to describe.
Bravo Style:
renamed Opportune Attack + Feint. clarify 'bravo weapons' here. i would add a 'free' attack of opportunity mechanic here. maybe +INT. or +1 per three bravo levels (minimum +1). something.
Debilitating Strike:
this bread and butter ability (combined with Engaging Feint) comes online earlier. each technique offers two basic status effects that trigger against DX-denied + opportunity-attacked foes. increased status effects come online later (see Deadly Strike).
Whirling Feint:
the 'area feint' ability. either building off of Compound Attack, or functioning similar to Whirlwind Attack or Cleave. something here. this is the (mass) battlefield control coming online at 7th.
Blend Techniques:
earlier, but limited to two, access to using multiple techniques simultaneously. this is essentially a new option added to Focus Technique.
Deadly Strike:
instead of increasing multiplier (boring!), each technique offers expanded options here. either increasing status effects by a degree (shaken > frightened, etc), or allowing a damage spike (rend?), or some other option (slowed, stunned, other ideas). this is essentially a new option added to Debilitating Strike.
Master of Five Techniques:
bravo may exist in all five techniques simultaneously and without increased Elan cost. bam!
...
cheers
Asscaphalus::
I totally wanted to leave this open to unaramed attacks. If you're holding your weapon and have a free hand, you could even delcare the weapon your off-hand and use the class features to punch. Well lets have a talk about weapons. My understanding is that "weapons" includes manufactered weapons and unarmed attacks - the stuff that appears on the weapons list. Legally speaking, does "weapons" include touch attacks and natural attacks?VM mercenario:
I have no plans to add more styles. I struggled enough with the five I have! They have changed many times in the last two years, but I will spare you the details. As you can see, I mentioned that these are the five most popular styles. I hoped that would allow for more in the future, without me doing the work. :)rainsax:
very good... As with many things, I will have to take time to consider this, as it would require, I think, alteration of more than one class feature.
Is that an invitation? Cause I think I can think up some three or four more possible styles. Give me a day or two to suss out the appropriate skills and I'll come back with them. Would it be okay to have some overlap on the style skills?
*rainsax:
If I understand correctly, your level 1 is -basically- the same as mine, with the abilities reshuffled/renamed, assumedly because it is a more logical arrangement to you. I don't see the benefit of doing so this late in the game. (Just as an aside, Bravo Weapons was the name of a class feature in an early version and includes a bonus feat associated with the character's favored ability score, and Feint was where the bonus damage was included).
Per your suggestions, I am working on a way for Engaging Feint, etc. advance as the bravo get better, which if it happens will include elevated conditions. The problem I see is how often the opportunity to use this ability will come up. I don't personally see a lot of AoO happening in-game. I'm also unsure about the double feint idea. I can easily imagine it cinematically, but game-wise I'm having trouble. To me, its like making someone double prone, or double confused.
Unless it appear in Amazing Elan, I'm not going to add any more ways to feint. At 7th level, a bravo can already feint four opponents: two with Compound Attack (standard), one with the Feint feat (move), and one with Elan (swift). The rules make no distinction about how where an opponent is for you to feint them. Hell, an archer could be feinting his targets. This should provide reasonable variety in how feint can be used.
Blend Techniques: it makes sense, I just hadn't done it before so I could keep things simple. We shall have a way to use a 2nd technique.
Yes, damage is boring. I've said it before myself. This exists purely because I feel that at a certain level the front-line warrior should become a virtual killing machine. A spell can do it with a single bad save, right? When Amazing Elan came along (from a suggestion by Cheapy), I considered replacing Deadly Strike with a 12th level ability that let a bravo spend three elan at once. I could still do that, and add other options.
*VM mercenario:
I will include them at the end of the document, along with the feats.
I am concerned though if there are more options, that in the name of doing things that other styles already do there will be techniques that are noticeably better than existing options. Power creep, yo. ;-)
Damage output is sort of the baseline expectation for a martial character, but the original reason that I suggested the compound attack idea was to make compound attack and a move action feint even remotely competitive with a 2WF build with two weapon feint and greater feint. Right now, two weapon fighting full attacks make the "core" build look like a chump as every single hit of that wacky many-bladed full attack is going to be adding the bravo's level to to damage with zero elan cost.
Even without two weapon fighting, the best way to deal damage with this class as it stands is to spend an Elan to swift action feint and then full attack (which goes against the design goal of having a class that does a lot with just an attack made with a standard action). That is somewhat mitigated by the Elan cost, but I am just going to say that makes the two weapon fighting build too good to pass up.
I'm counting on the elan cost mitigating abuse of things. With the variety of elan choices, I'm counting on the bravo also using elan to protect also protect himself.
I also changed Opportune Attack's bonus damage the other day so that only half is precision damage. That will help with crit fishing.
Techniques :)
Martinez(eagle): Initiative, Perception and Appraise
Vectorius(bull): Each round ignore a number of squares of difficult terrain equal to the bonus, Handle Animal & Ride
Joran(wasp): Number of additional Attacks of Opportunity per round, Sleight of Hand & Stealth
Raphael(bear): the bonus times half his level (minimun 1) as temporary HP that is lost first, Survival, Knowledge(nature)
Debilitating Strikes are harder to do because it has to be an effect that last between three and ten rounds, so it can't be used to daze, confuse, sttager, stun or do a free maneuver.
I'm making some slight alterations. Problem: a bonus to initiative doesn't help unless you are using the technique before comat begins.
Interestingly, you are first to mention the strength of individual fighting techniques. I know they aren't equal, but thats almost impossible to accomplish though. I think they each have their merits, and I kind of wanted to give a special nod to Aldori. They were too complicated in earlier drafts, and I wanted them to be simple.
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Debilitating Strikes are harder to do because it has to be an effect that last between three and ten rounds, so it can't be used to daze, confuse, sttager, stun or do a free maneuver.
this is an excellent point. maybe the uniform duration can be lifted, and instead each effect can have it's own individual duration, so to allow for a greater diversity of effects possible? (stunned for 5 rounds sucks!)
i like your Styles VM mercenario!
half precision damage is weird. maybe an Elan point upon scoring a critical check can enable multiplicity on successful confirmation?
you are probably right about the renaming. but it makes better sense in my head lol.
also, sure, you can use every available action to feint, but then you can't attack in the same round. my suggestion for Whirling Feint, whether explicit or not, was to enable a multi-feint as part of a move action or a swift action (for 1 Elan the latter). thus, interactivity with both Feint and Elan. that was my intent. and, to either 'each adjacent opponent' or 'upon successfully feinting an adjacent for, you may feint another adjacent foe as a free action' (like Cleave). or something. finally, i don't think you can normally feint at range. if you want to include that ability (which imo isn't 'in-theme'), you'd have to add it in specifically.
what are you going to do about the skill timeframes? especially if you include some of the new styles/techniques?
i retract the 'damage is boring' comment. Excaliburproxy is right. cheers.
Debilitating is still a work in progress. I know it needs work.
Half precision IS weird. Just grasping for something I guess.
I wrote two different area feints today and scrapped both. Still working on it.
I'm going to leave the skills in minutes as is. I'm open to a re-wording suggestion though.
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maybe.
Whirling Feint (Ex):
Whenever the bravo attempts to feint a foe he threatens, he may instead attempt a feint against all foes who are currently flanking him as part of the same action. He gains a bonus to his check equal to the number of foes flanking him, and uses the same die roll to check against each foe separately.
next idea.
another reason i suggested splitting Technique from Focus was to yield the idea of a 'resting technique' which would consistently grant it's skill bonuses without using up the rounds/level/day resource. i think it also has RP potential: "look at him, he walks like a [rolls Knowledge check] Lannish, puffing his chest all out..."
mechanics for switching techniques unchanged (swift action, uses 1 'round/level/day' point) - essentially the last technique you used lingers and becomes your resting technique (unless you dismiss it [free action], thus having no resting technique, no bonuses, but also no identifiable gait....)
plus, just as Silveri is somewhat an exception, (VM mercenario's) Martinez could be an exception by allowing the initiative bonus to be passively granted (so as to be actually useful without needing Rapid Adaptation) in place of or in addition to the passive skill bonuses.
maybe add Disengaging Flourish to 6th level bonus feat list?
cheers.
rainsax, you're driving me crazy. I'm only offering this potential mod because you have assisted me so much already. :)
Fighting Technique (Ex): A bravo learns fighting techniques in order to better take advantage of his opponent and the terrain, by studying with another or on his own. Below are five of the most popular techniques, identified by the name of the sword master who developed it and the animal that symbolize it's spirit. At 1st level, he selects one he has learned from this list:
Aldori (fox): saving throws, Bluff & Sense Motive
Broylin (cobra): critical confirmation rolls, Climb & Swim
Hallov (wolf): CMB, Disguise & Knowledge (local)
Lannish (lion): damage rolls, Diplomacy & Intimidate
Silveri (hare): five time the bonus as in increase to base speed, Acrobatics & Escape Artist
A bravo can alternately use a fighting technique he has learned in either a passive or focused form, but not both. While doing so he gains a +2 bonus to a number of capabilities. The use of a fighting technique can be noticed by a creature who succeeds on a Sense Motive check. A fighting technique automatically ends if he is immobilized or helpless.
Beginning or ending the passive form of a fighting technique is a free action. While he doing so gains the bonus to the two skills listed in the fighting technique he is using.
The bravo is limited in the length of time he can use the focused form of a fighting technique. He can do so for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Intelligence bonus, plus 2 additional rounds per level he has attained. Beginning the focused form is a swift action and ending it is a free action. When the bravo uses the focused form he gains a +2 bonus to AC and attacks with bravo weapons, as well as the specific benefit and two skills listed in the fighting technique. The benefits of using the focused form of a fighting technique apply only when his speed is not reduced in any way, such as from armor, encumbrance, or an effect.
At 5th level and every four levels thereafter he learns one additional fighting technique of his choice. At 6th level and every six levels thereafter the competence bonus associated with fighting techniques goes up by 1, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level. He can use only one fighting technique at a time and the old one ends if he enters a new one.
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The bravo is limited in the length of time he can use the focused form of a fighting technique. He can do so for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Intelligence bonus, plus 2 additional rounds per level he has attained. Beginning the focused form is a swift action and ending it is a free action. When the bravo uses the focused form he gains a +2 bonus to AC and attacks with bravo weapons, as well as the specific benefit and two skills listed in the fighting technique. The benefits of using the focused form of a fighting technique apply only when his speed is not reduced in any way, such as from armor, encumbrance, or an effect.
At 5th level and every four levels thereafter he learns one additional fighting technique of his choice. At 6th level and every six levels thereafter the competence bonus associated with fighting techniques goes up by 1, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level. He can use only one fighting technique at a time and the old one ends if he enters a new one.
What competence is this you speak of? Can you even have competence bonuses to AC and to-hit?
And now that you're talking about passive style uses: what do these passive styles do?
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Debilitating is still a work in progress. I know it needs work.
Half precision IS weird. Just grasping for something I guess.
I wrote two different area feints today and scrapped both. Still working on it.
I'm going to leave the skills in minutes as is. I'm open to a re-wording suggestion though.
Just drop the Precision thing. Often enough you have to do in one attack what other classes do in a whole full attack. Also, this class should want to use critfishing weapons like the rapier.
The competence bonus was something old, and I had missed pulling that last reference out.
I thought I explained what the passive style does. That unclear, huh? It increases the skill bonus and nothing else.
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On re-reading, it's there alright. It IS nicer than letting skill bonuses persist after the combat bonuses wear off.
When the bravo uses the focused form he
gains a +2 bonus to AC and attacks with bravo weapons, as
well as the specific benefit and two skills listed in the
fighting technique.
This probably needs rephrasing - it sounds like you gain two skills, not a bonus to two skills.
You've got a bullet point with no text in Debilitating Attack, probably vestigial.
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I'm wondering if there really is a need for "something extra" to balance 1-weapon styles against 2WF styles. With the current writeup, I think 2WF will be strong if you have static fights, but if you have lots of fights with enemies more than 5ft apart, or just short fights that end in 1-2 rounds, that 2WF has no great benefit, and that the "edge" of 1-handed style is spending fewer feats.
In other words, as the class is now, the power of 2WF vs. saving a few feats is in the hands of the GM.
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I'd also like to point out that this class can actually get a lot of use out of Cleave, because it can do so much with just a standard action-sized attack. Feint->Cleave or Feint->Lunge->Cleave, as well as setting up a Compound feint on one round, then going cleave-crazy the next round. (Relevant: while Feinting boosts your melee attacks, you don't seem to need to actually be in melee yet with the people you're feinting.)
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I'm really starting to like the variety of viable fighting styles available to the Bravo. For example:
- Whip Mastery to threaten a 10ft area with one hand
- Feint-as-Move->Lunge->Cleave
- Compound Feint/Cleave+
- Lunge->Vital Strike/Feint-as-Move
- Crit-Fishing with Deadly Strike and critical Bonus Feats
- 2WF
- Significant unarmed strike damage
- Solid multiclassing with Monk, Rogue, Ranger, Magus, Bard
I addressed the re-phrasing. I hope it is more clear now.
As far the issue of two-weapon and natural attacks, I modified what a bravo weapon is (for like the 20th time). Should I keep working on it? Is this too much? Not enough?
Many class features refer to bravo weapons, which are melee weapons not wielded two-handed or in an off-hand. In any given round, only one weapon may count as a bravo weapons.
Should I drop "melee" from this? Would it be too much allow thrown weapons and one-handed crossbows, etc?
Your whip idea got me thinking. Time to replace some artwork!
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I would allow 2WF actually. The main-gauche comes from fencing, too. Stylistically I think 2WF should be in there as a possibility.
I actually think that right now 1H and 2WF is fairly tied, because you have so many good abilities that compete with full attacks, and without full attacks 2WF isn't possible. The following things form the main competition with 2WF:
- Feinting as a move action
- Mobile fighting, aided by Lunge
- Compound Attack
So that's not enough to make 2WF useless, but enough that if you spend the 2WF feats on something else, you'll be about on-par. After all, it takes 1-5 feats to become good at 2WF and you need a very high dexterity to meet the prerequisites.
I don't have an objection to one-handed ranged attacks. By my count those are things like darts, javelins, shuriken, daggers; slings; and crossbows at a penalty. Note that Feinting only strips Dex from AC in melee, so getting an Opportune Attack with a ranged weapon will take some work. Like a rogue seeking ranged sneak attacks, it can be done but you have to really work for it. I think the main contender might be shuriken because it's easier to get drawing them down to a free action, setting up ranged full attacks. Note that if a way exists (I'm not sure) to enjoy the effects of Feint with ranged weapons, Compound Attack becomes very very powerful.
On the whole, I like the idea of opening up a combat with a ranged weapon thrown at someone who's still flat-footed, getting both Str and Opportune Atttack bonus damage.
Note that if you say "In any given round, only one weapon may count as a bravo weapon.", that will stop full-attack thrown weapons cold. It'll stop the shuriken while keeping the javelin in the game - javelins are too bulky anyway for full attacks, but good for surprise rounds where drawing, moving AND attacking is just too much.
You might want to consider whether the Styles (described as swordmanship) should apply to ranged attacks though. Although they also apply to axes and whips, so let's not get too hung up on consistency here.
The thing I object to, is natural weapons. I don't want tail slaps and gorings to count as bravo weapons. I'm not entirely sure about Slam and Claw natural weapons, those might be okay. Note that your current definition does not exclude any natural weapon because none of them are two-handed or off-hand. Although you can only use one of them per round. It's not so much about balance as about style.
As for the final definition: it depends on what you want in and what you want out. You should choose for each of the following:
- Slam, Claw attacks
- Melee touch spells
- Unarmed strikes
- (One-handed) thrown weapons
- One-handed ranged weapons in general
- 2-weapon throw
- 2WF in melee
Ascaphalus, you've helped me make some decisions. (I still reserve the right to reverse them however!)
I have decided to not pursue ranged attack in any more than a very general way. There are abilities that can only be used with bravo weapons, and there are abilities that can be used by the bravo - if that makes sense. So, a bravo can do some cool stuff with a ranged weapon without it becoming a specialty. Melee will remain the easy choice.
Part of me wants to allow natural attacks, as long at the use of them doesn't surpass the intent of my concept. Describing my intent in clear game terms would require more wording and complication that I don't wish to handle, so they are out.
Also, I'm not opposed to TWF, but only the primary hand will count as a bravo weapon. Attacking as a standard action will remain the bread and butter.
The definition of bravo weapons is still changing slightly every week, so... ugh.
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Okay, no ranged bravo weapons, but allowing natural weapons.
I think it's possible to fit the intent of bravo weapons into clear, concise and nonambiguous game terms. Given what you said in your last post, I think you're pretty much there now.
There's just one tiny error in the last sentence: "only one weapon may count as a bravo weapons".
Also, that last sentence and the mention of off-hand weapons is a bit redundant. The last sentence stops full-attack series of natural weapons since only one weapon can be bravo per round. So why can't an off-hand weapon be the bravo weapon, INSTEAD of the main weapon? It'll generally be the poorer option, although it has some use with the 2W-Feint feat. That's nice to have but also a significant feat investment, so it seems balanced to me.
And how can/do you choose which weapon will be the bravo weapon this round? How about the following:
Many class features refer to bravo weapons, which can be any melee weapon not wielded two-handed. In any round, only one weapon can be chosen as a bravo weapon.
* Cuts the redundant off-hand clause.
* Makes it clear that the bravo weapon is chosen.(By the way: nice, a whip-wielder. Although I also liked the swashbuckler in the previous draft; I thought it was more appropriate than the hammer-barian.)
I'm pretty sure I forgot to UL the newest version before your last post. Very sorry.
Its the other way around: I want to disallow natural weapons, but allow ranged weapons in a general way.
I have looked for a definition of off-hand but can only get so much. The rules assumer we know the difference between primary and off-hand. After researching, my understanding is that a weapon is only considered to be in an off-handed attack when using two-weapon fighting and that there is no differentiation made between left and right handed people. When you make an attack with one weapon, it doesn't matter which hand it is in. When you attack with two weapons, one of them is the off-hand. So, even though I believe this all to be true, I probably need to clarify some in the description of bravo weapons.
On artwork: I wanted the swashbuckler to be represented, but also wanted other character "types" and weapons to be represented. Ideally I wanted to depict two girls, two guys, not all human, and not all swords. I wanted an agile looking non-sword wielded, but couldn't find anything that fit my mind's eye, until I found the hammer dude. In this case, he is a strength and charisma based bravo - hence no armor. :)
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I see the latest version permits both natural weapons and one-handed ranged weapons. I think you got it now. It's simple and precise.
Natural weapons don't get iteratives, so I don't think they'll outpace manufactured weapons until you get to the degenerate cases (an Awakened T-Rex with Bravo levels). And it seems appropriate at least for Claw and Slam attacks. It could get just a little bit dicey with creatures with only one natural attack, since that attack does benefit from 1.5 STR/Power Attack bonuses. But then, so does the monk. I think bravo/monks will be superior to natural weapon bravos, but not so much that single-class bravos will suffer.
Thank you for your ongoing help Ascalaphus.
My group of ten years fell apart recently, and we never used home brew or 3rd party anyways. So... Please do!
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That is the saddest story, Barnes.