And,while i'm here,some news.
Third stage of the "ATO"had mixed results.On the one hand,not a single city was supressed,and casualties from both sides were relatively light(in numbers like 5-6 KIA from each side per day),and government lost 4 helicopters and at least 2 IFVs,on the other hand,Slavyansk is more or less in complete blockade,with most of the rebel's checkpoints destroyed.
They can't proceed into the city because ATGMs.
What else interesting happened?
There are reports that something that calls itself "Crimean Self-Defence"numbering at least a thousand people joined rebels in Donetsk.From the looks of it,very few of them are younger than 40.
There are news of russian kossaks taking control of border checkpoints.
Because,you know,number of volunteers after Odessa spiked dramatically.
Most interesting question:okay,Slavyansk is blockaded and being hit from all sides,what are the rest of the rebels doing,sitting on their [censored]?
Answer is that they ATM training and arming something called Republican Guard.
Also referendum is in a week,so this is government's deadline.
I must stress again,for Ukraine to remain(not to remain whole,just remain as a country),it can't lose control of these provinces.They are too valuable and Ukraine has too much debt.
The United States Military Junta
For fun and the sake of the discussion two or so pages back.
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Re: Holomodor
As a wee Trotskyist goblin lad, I dutifully learned about the "scissors crisis" [ooo, there's even a wiki page]between the prices of agricultural and industrial goods that Trotsky went on about in '23 or something; the Zinoviev-Kamenev-Trotsky United Left Opposition that was defeated by the alliance of Stalin and Bukharin (each name, of course, represents more than the individual personality); Bukharin and Rykov and co. telling the peasantry to "enrich themselves"; the peasant strikes, hiding of grain and slaughter of livestock; the falling apart of the Stalin-Bukharin bloc; Stalin's "Left turn" and the murderous collectivization of agriculture.
Also, the Ukrainian Communist Party (or whatever it was called) was, I read, the one most hit by Stalin's purges.
Whether this constituted a conscious genocide against the Ukrainians I remained unconvinced (Volga Russians were pretty hard hit, too, I've read) and I don't trust either of the arguments--Stalinist apologists on the one side and Ukrainian nationalists on the other.
I was taught, however, that it was barbaric, murderous, and completely avoidable.
I also just learned that Stephen F. Cohen is married to The Nation editor Katrina vanden Heuvel. Huh.
and completely avoidable.
I am not convinced of that.Yes,you can avoid some of the problems,at expense of time.But time is one thing USSR didn't had.
Fail to industrialize a country in time,and half of the world will speak german.Other half will speak Japanese.
and completely avoidable.
I am not convinced of that.
Well, like I said, it was what I was taught.
For those interested, sample of kinda stuff Doodlebug was indoctrinated with while still young
The Opposition’s warnings were shown to be correct. The Kulak danger, manifested in a grain strike and sabotage, threatened to overthrow the Soviet power and place capitalist counterrevolution on the order of the day. In a panic reaction, Stalin was compelled to break with Bukharin and launch on an ultra-left adventure. Having contemptuously rejected Trotsky’s proposal of a Five Year Plan to develop the Soviet economy , he suddenly did a 180 degree somersault in 1927, and began to advocate the madness of a “Five Year Plan in four years” and the “liquidation of the kulaks as a class” through forced collectivisation.. This sudden turn disoriented many Oppositionists, who imagined that Stalin had adopted the policies of the Opposition. But Stalin’s policy was only a caricature of the Opposition’s policies. It ruled out any return to the norms of Leninist Soviet democracy and led to the consolidation of the Bureaucracy as a ruling caste.
Thanks for that Comrade,
You're welcome. Here's another.
Occupy Wall Street on Trial: Cecily McMillan Convicted of Assaulting Cop, Faces Up to Seven Years
Stalin foresaw nothing and understood nothing
Objection.He foresaw the war(well,everyone did)and understood that he understood nothing.What you see as zigzags i see as a man that learns.
Stalin foresaw nothing and understood nothingObjection.He foresaw the war(well,everyone did)and understood that he understood nothing.What you see as zigzags i see as a man that learns.
You can't argue with the fact that he died at the top, that's for sure.
You can't argue with the fact that he died at the top, that's for sure.
Of course not.That would be stupid.
In other news:Quite a hot night is expected in Slavyansk.
One unit of howitzers,one of rocket artillery,and last,but not least,one of high-caliber rocket artillery(Uragan 220mm rockets)were deployed.
Also something like 30 tanks(ACTUAL,not IFVs),at least 20 IFVs,and,well,a few thousand infantry.
If shooting starts,by morning city will be no more.
Stay tuned!
Oh,and there is still not supressed uprising in Mariupol.
Remotely related video.
Well,first 50 seconds of it.
Cops from Odessa somehow didn't like orders to supress the populace.
Where did i saw that...
God i love this movie
Where do you think researchers go to get the raw data for their research?"Scientists"that come out with figures like 7-10m?They pull it straight out of their [censored].
You do realise the stunning irony in your last sentence don't you?
Given figures come from resources like Soviet era government archivesNo.Because,you see,there is statistics.Not some documents labeled"casualties from famine of 1933"written by somebody-paid "scientist".
Statistics don't lie.We have births X and deaths Y in one year,and births X-something,deaths Y+1m in the next one.Understatement and overstatement happens in propaganda,not in documents meant for internal use.
Which is where your problem is.So.Much.Propaganda.
Could you start making sense please. You really think that documents "for internal use" are somehow pure and unmanipulated? Particularly ones from Soviet government sources? Statistics "lie" all the time because the people using them often (probably always) have agendas. What are the agendas of the people writing the documents you are relying on?
Then I'd love to know where you get your information about how the deaths were actually poisoning.Reports that i personally read that describe the situation in which family is found dead from "hunger",but without symptoms,and on the property of said family 100-200-500 kilograms of grain is found buried.And this family is the only one dead in the village.
Numerous reports.More numerous then i have patience to read.
You may not have the patience to read them, but your should trying having the patience to critically and objectively analyse them. It might be enlightening. Somehow your "reports" are completely reliable but all the ones used by researchers to come up with the figures that range from 1.5 to 10+ million deaths aren't. Apparently some reports are more equal than others. Again, how very Orwellian of you.
well we could go into Soviet policies towards other ethnic minoritiesWe could.After you read Stalin's take on these.
Why? So I can come up with even more examples of how poorly the Soviets treated pretty much everyone in the Soviet Union, especially non-Russians? But I guess you have a report somewhere that says none of it happened.
You do know that in many areas the UkrainiansStatistically insignificant number.And,of course,actual Poles from annexed parts.But by some(stretched,obviously)reports more ukrainians died in the war than jew.So,you know,a few million lost in WW1,then a few in civil war,then 10m in 33,then 3-5-7 in WW2.And then they die out.
Exept it isn't what happened,and in 1990 it was one of the most populous provinces of USSR.
Stop going off on a tangent. And stop belittling the deaths by claiming they didn't occur or that more people died in other ways.
If you really think there was nothing wrongCan you stop with the broad generalizations?
I can said for the third time,a lot of thing were wrong.But you know so little about things that happened there that you even less qualified than me to discuss it.
And you telling me about Orwell.
Irony 2, Objectivity 0
You really think that documents "for internal use" are somehow pure and unmanipulated?
You are really clueless,aren't you?
Okay,i explain in simple terms.Planned economy,you see,is planned.Most of the things are controlled by the government,including workforce.
Say,you,for any reason,lower numbers of fatalities,for,say,one million.Not in Pravda newspaper,but in actual internal reports.
Next year,plan fails.Investigation starts,re-analyzes all reports,and found out that one more million people died.And plan failed because of that.
Next,two things happens:first,statistics are revised with actual information(to prevent this sort of thing from happening in the future),and second,everyone responsible is shot for treason.Or given a life sentence.
AND YOU KNOW IT WILL HAPPEN.
Maybe in US of A or EU it's a minor felony,but not in USSR.
You understand so little about how and why USSR worked these days it's not even funny.
So, for the record, although I have some pretty severe disagreements with Vlad, I am hereby moving him from "Citizen" to "Comrade." Partly because he makes me laugh, partly because I've been waiting for someone like him to come along for, oh, three or so years.
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You really think that documents "for internal use" are somehow pure and unmanipulated?You are really clueless,aren't you?
Okay,i explain in simple terms.
Planned economy,you see,is planned.Most of the things are controlled by the government,including workforce.
Say,you,for any reason,lower numbers of fatalities,for,say,one million.Not in Pravda newspaper,but in actual internal reports.
Next year,plan fails.Investigation starts,re-analyzes all reports,and found out that one more million people died.And plan failed because of that.
Next,two things happens:first,statistics are revised with actual information(to prevent this sort of thing from happening in the future),and second,everyone responsible is shot for treason.Or given a life sentence.
AND YOU KNOW IT WILL HAPPEN.
Maybe in US of A or EU it's a minor felony,but not in USSR.
You understand so little about how and why USSR worked these days it's not even funny.
Thats your simple terms? I can't understand what your going on about, at all
Thats your simple terms?
No,it's what passes for simple in Soviet Russia.
he makes me laugh
And i thought no-one is understanding my irony)
Back on topic from Vlad's stalin apologetics:
thoughts?
thoughts?
thoughts?
Photo of Gubarev is confirmed fake.
And who cares about him?He's rotting somewhere in a cell.Possibly in the ground.Important person is his wife.
NEWSFLASH:Strike that,he is actually alive and quite well.
And was exchanged two hours ago for a few captured special forces people.
This is...unexpected to say the least.
Back on topic from Vlad's stalin apologetics:
thoughts?thoughts?
Workers, sweep all this crap into the dustbin of history!
Workers, sweep all this crap into the dustbin of history!
There are SOME reports of that,but only in the east.
West is content,supressed,under information blockade that i can't get through,or a combination of three.There was,i think,ONE demonstration in Lvov.
Photo of Gubarev is confirmed fake.
thoughts?
I suspected as much; he looked a bit strange in the photo in terms of how he angles his head etc. Do you have a source though? Google didn't give much info, not that that's surprising.
That said, I'm less interested in that and more about how much is true of fascist ties within the pro-russian movements.
Do you have a source though? Google didn't give much info, not that that's surprising.
I do,and i think more than one,but how well do you understand russian?
That said, I'm less interested in that and more about how much is true of fascist ties within the pro-russian movements.
You are mistaking fascists and nationalists.And,yes,there are nationalists.Substantial number of them.Problem is,they view affected territories as part of one,larger nation.You can call it Russian Empire,USSR,RF or whatever.So it doesn't matter that you are ukrainian,chechen or uleut(sp?),you are still russian.This is not a bad thing,even USA does it.By that standard,i am nationalist.
Ultranationalists,as people call it,are another beast entirely.I did not saw CONFIRMED reports of them in the rebel ranks.
But of course they are there,these are first people who take up arms.
Make yourself and your department look better.
Then get shot after first review of sent data.You can't hide it,you know.And you can't shift the blame.No-one is safe,so you just do your just do your job and hope for the best.
And their job they did well.Like i said,during actual drought later there were no substantial spikes.Because,you know,learning from experience.WHICH YOU CAN'T GAIN IF YOU ARE DEAD!
I am pretty sure it's even in the rulebook.
Of course you can hide it.
You can't.Because to hide it,EVERY department needs to hide it.And also supress somehow people in the field that can and will send letters to the central government.
"Shoot anyone who reports bad news" is not one of the recommended solutions.
Which is why solution was to shoot,or,most of the time,jail,anyone who didn't report the bad news.
And in the end things worked pretty well,in given circumstances.Also,while i'm here,i'd like to quote presidential candidate Yulia Timoshenko's press conference:
"I don't want to bear responsiblity for revolution's failure.But if country elects president other than me,and i have one opponent now,i think we will need to go for the third round of the revolution.I just don't see any chance for changes there,i know all of these people."
Fun fact:"official"public support for Y is 10% ATM.
Do you have a source though? Google didn't give much info, not that that's surprising.I do,and i think more than one,but how well do you understand russian?
I can just run it through a translator. Though I guess the reliability of a source is limited if it doesn't have the original pic or similar.
You are mistaking fascists and nationalists.
That said, I'm less interested in that and more about how much is true of fascist ties within the pro-russian movements.
No, I'm talking about fascists. Though certain flavors of nationalism are very similar to fascism, I got the impression this goes beyond the fascistoid tendencies of current russian regime.
From the article:
But there are smaller Russian nationalism-based fascist groups in Ukraine as well, such as Slavic Unity, which is linked to the nazi Russian National Unity party inside Russia. Some of these Russian-oriented fascists staged a march in Donetsk, east Ukraine, in November last year – shortly before the outbreak of the Euromaidan protests.
Now such groups are able to immerse themselves in Antimaidan. The black, gold and white monarchist flag, favoured by Russian extreme nationalist and fascist organisations, has been on display in some areas
Russian National Unity party inside Russia. Some of these Russian-oriented fascists staged a march in Donetsk, east Ukraine, in November last year – shortly before the outbreak of the Euromaidan protests.
Now such groups are able to immerse themselves in Antimaidan. The black, gold and white monarchist flag, favoured by Russian extreme nationalist and fascist organisations, has been on display in some areas
More or less full research on Gubarev fake
As on fascists...RNU(which is,of course,most powerful nazi party aroung) is a shadow of it's former glory.It's reached peak during mid-90s.I,honestly,do not think that a)it's in position to have ties with anything and b)that it's possible to have fascist party of any power in Russia.Because Chechen Republic,Tatarstan and a LOT of others.Russia is multinational.
Also because fascism by very definition are anti-communistic,and commies are stable second place here.
But,exeptions happen,yes.And i'm pretty sure some of these exeptions are fighting in the Ukraine(which may explain the flag).
This,i think,is a good thing.Maybe they get smarter or something.
Ladies and gentlemen,i give you the only tank the rebels have.Was used as a memorial till two days ago.And yes,it works.
Symbolism!
I like Vlad. He talks like one of those internet trolls Putin has hired to get involved in all forum conversations
I,actually,know a few bloggers that get paid by Kremlin,but they didn't involve themselves in...forum conversations.Ineffective.One big cannon at this day and age is more effective than 10k rifles.
Does he play d&d?
I play Pathfinder^^
So,today's the day for supressing Mariupol.Hard.
Not Donetsk,Lugansk or other rebel stronghold,but Mariupol.
Reports are,as always,inconsistent,but at least 20 KIA from both sides,usage of IFVs and firing of RPGs are confirmed.
Quite a heavy fighting.On the Victory Day,no less.
Somehow Mariupol was not supressed.From reports,whole thing started from some cops unwilling to follow orders,then COPS were supressed by mechanized unit,but not before commanders of said unit were eliminated.
Then civilians,mostly unarmed,tried to stop national guard,with expected results,because these guys aren't army.They WILL shoot at civilians.
So they did.And then rebel reinforcements arrived and NG unit retreated.
That's about it.Casualties from civilian side a likely higher than in Odessa.
ballot stuffing ahead of referendum exposed...looks bad only if those are valid votes of course.
I heard something of yesterday's provocation,but was focused on fighting.
Probably this is it.But then,i THINK, that the only party that needs false bulletins are not rebels.Rebels are good,most of the population support them.Even if that support manifests in not shooting rebels on sight.
-I was reading J. Barzun's Dawn to Decadence and was reminded how he said "sometimes the people acted very undemocratic, for example rioting to remove elected leaders, or not liking the result of an election".
-From South Korea, to Thailand, to Russia/Ukraine are we seeing a global trend, the failure of democracy to govern well? Certainly this is the argument the butchers of Beijing like to put forward, pointing fingers to the corrupt mess that is Indian politics.
-Are we, as in the 20th century, being faced with the choices of totalitarianism on one hand, and democracy on the other?
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-I was reading J. Barzun's Dawn to Decadence and was reminded how he said "sometimes the people acted very undemocratic, for example rioting to remove elected leaders, or not liking the result of an election".
-From South Korea, to Thailand, to Russia/Ukraine are we seeing a global trend, the failure of democracy to govern well? Certainly this is the argument the butchers of Beijing like to put forward, pointing fingers to the corrupt mess that is Indian politics.
-Are we, as in the 20th century, being faced with the choices of totalitarianism on one hand, and democracy on the other?
When the few govern the many it is always totalitarianism. They can call it democracy but strip it naked and the corpse is the same. Im all for an end to 'love thy neighbour' in favour of 'leave him alone'.
And referendum day.Something very strange is happening.Turnout is high,which i can understand,Odessa and Mariupol events alone account for,like,20 percent at least,BUT WHERE'S THE ARMY?
Seriously,it's,like,last chance for the central government to more-or-less-legit supression,and it does NOTHING!
Which means that i don't get to see russian military in action.
Sad,very sad.
And,on a lighter note,rebels hang man responsible for Mariupol massacre.
This is barbaric and wrong.
But then,i didn't lose friends and close kin in that war yet.
Seriously,it's,like,last chance for the central government to more-or-less-legit supression,and it does NOTHING!
Which means that i don't get to see russian military in action.
Sad,very sad.
What exactly are you sad about? That the Russian and Ukrainian militaries didn't get into a fight with each other?
What exactly are you sad about?
That i don't get to see russian military in action,duh.
Fight between russian and ukrainian military isn't possible.
I love how the media are presenting us the evil anticonstitutional military coup d'état from the Russian tiny minority from East against the good and proud European freedom fighters from the West, when it's actually the other way around, since Ianoukovitch, even though he's a corrupt guy (an East European guy with a private zoo is always corrupt, that's a law of physics), was indeed elected in a democratic fashion, with a scrutiny under UN supervision...
So what kind of action
The right kind.
Unlike this "ATO".before impeachment could be formalized
I do not think that impeachment was on the table.It requires procedures,and
central government just CAN'T follow these.
OTOH, Yanukovich was corrupt and fled the country before impeachment could be formalized. Nor is the Russian ethnic minority or their actual Russian backers pure and good.
It's more of the usual messy situation where none of the players are really on the up and up and the majority of the civilians are just caught in the middle of both local powerplays and superpower/regional power politics.
Well, he fled impeachement by guys who took power by force...
generally means blowing stuff up and killing people
That's what Hollywood are for.
because that's what militaries are for. War.
And usage of armed forces is limited to deploying infantry.
God,this is so 19th century.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I love how the media are presenting us the evil anticonstitutional military coup d'état from the Russian tiny minority from East against the good and proud European freedom fighters from the West, when it's actually the other way around, since Ianoukovitch, even though he's a corrupt guy (an East European guy with a private zoo is always corrupt, that's a law of physics), was indeed elected in a democratic fashion, with a scrutiny under UN supervision...OTOH, Yanukovich was corrupt and fled the country before impeachment could be formalized. Nor is the Russian ethnic minority or their actual Russian backers pure and good.
It's more of the usual messy situation where none of the players are really on the up and up and the majority of the civilians are just caught in the middle of both local powerplays and superpower/regional power politics.
Sure, Putin isn't the nicest of guys, but this situation is all on the U.S. and its allies. We've been trying to destabilize Ukraine for years (the "Orange Revolution" was merely it's first manifestation) and now our tax dollars have done their work. Congratulations! The very groups that the EU Parliament and the World Jewish Congress were condemning as neo-nazis and anti-semites hold important positions of power in the "pro-western" Ukrainian junta. Just what we wanted, right?
I don't know if Americans just don't get it or not. Was the 1979 Iranian revolution not a lesson? Stop destabilizing foreign governments. Was the Iraqi war not a lesson? Stop invading foreign lands.
Russia has proven they're not to be trifled with. We lied to them about NATO expansion, tried to encircle them, and now suddenly they are the aggressors? Please. They're defending their interests and rightfully so. Georgia attacked their people and they responded. They may very well take action in Ukraine as well. So what? It's their back yard, not ours. If Poland wants a piece of Russia, let them try and take it. We've no business there.
The U.S. and it's allies have been the biggest exporters of war, violence, political manipulation and lies. Our own populace is under constant surveillance. Our economies are in shambles. When will we learn that everything we try to manipulate internationally turns to crap and garbage?