New players...plus one experienced, which makes a novel problem

[missnerd86]

I have just bought the Pathfinder core rulebook, plus a couple bestiaries and the advanced player guide and gamemastery guide.

I have a group of first-time players and am a first-time GM, however one of my players is experienced in D&D and keeps trying to add in things that we aren't using.

For example he keeps trying to add in content from other Paizo materials that we aren't using, such as Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat. Additionally he has tried to create his own Craft specialisation for which he wrote a ten-page guideline book. The way he wants to do it will essentially give him extra powers and feats that other PCs don't have, so I have said to him that it may need a little more tightening up to be more balanced with the rest of the group.

I have said every time that we are, apart from him, a group of first-timers and want to stick to just the core stuff until we get used to the mechanics of the game and discover what works for us, etc. I have asked if he would be patient enough to work with us and help us in familiarising ourselves with the game, at least for now. Then he tells me I am squashing his creativity and he can't play the way he wants.

He also wants to create multiple PCs and have them leave and enter the group as he pleases, which I feel probably wouldn't be a problem if we were all more experienced, but at the moment everyone is still finding their feet with role-playing and the game mechanics as it is.

We are using modules at the moment while we get familiar with the game, and he feels they are levelling too slow, based on the XP given by the modules.

I am just feeling very frustrated and am already feeling as though I don't want to play it anymore because at every turn we hit a massive discussion about he wants to add this in, or that, and so sessions are taking forever, he keeps complaining that the game is broken....

I am at a loss here guys, anyone have any advice to help me out here? I don't know whether to say, "Sorry dude, we are gonna have to play with you once we are up to your level because I don't want you to feel restricted in your play" or whether to give up and let him add in all the stuff he wants. I have tried to compromise with him by saying we can look at adding in some of the extra stuff once we've got a bit more experience in the game, but then he complains that the levelling is too slow so he can't do what he wants "for, like, forever."

Any advice?

[Apocalypso]

This may come across as snarky but, perhaps he should GM.

He could create lots of characters. He could homerule things... although I would request a guideline for consistency, so the ground beneath your feet isn't changing all the time. come to think of it, he might be a wild-eyed super-creative dimension-hopping madman as a GM, which might not work for you either.

And your suggestion about having him stay out until you guys get a firmer grasp is probably a good one. You can phrase it nicely like, "dude we're just not advanced enough with the material for you. why don't you come back in a few months when we've caught up with you a little more?"

[Volaran]

I kind of agree with Apocalypso. If he's building his own guides to things that he wants to do, and wants to run a rotating group of PCs that can come and leave as he pleases, it sounds like he might be happier GMing.

Even as an experienced GM, I generally prefer limiting the source material PCs are allowed, simply because I'm not going to be familiar with every little thing. With a group of newbies, this becomes even more important.

I wouldn't recommend speeding up leveling either. I find it much more difficult to get players used to the game when they come in at higher levels, or level very quickly. People forget which powers and abilities their characters possess.

I wouldn't suggest that his fun is less important than the other players or GM, but it isn't more important either. It might be time to have that discussion. "Your constant demands to have your way make me not want to play anymore" is probably a good starting point.

Edit: Also noticed this was your first post. Welcome to the boards, and to Pathfinder!

[Mysterious Stranger]

The worst thing you can do as a GM is to let a player push you around. As a GM you are the one setting the limits on the campaign not the players. Limiting what is available to your players to what you own is completely reasonable. While all the pathfinder material is available online it is kind of hard to sit down and casually browse through it. I had one GM that came up with an interesting solution to this problem. He allowed any official material as long as he had a copy of it. If you wanted to use something he did not have you had to buy him a copy of it for his own. So if he wants to use something from Ultimate Magic have him purchase a copy for you.

As far as allowing a player to write changes to the rules that is something I would never allow. I can see allowing a player to purpose a house rule, but in the end you are the GM and all house rules should be created or adopted by you not the players. In no circumstance would I allow a player to create custom abilities unless it an optional rule like the custom races from the ARG.

If the player gives you a hard time thank him politely for his interest in playing, and let him know how sorry you are that what he wants to play does not fit the campaign you are running. Then tell him that you will inform him if you decided to run a campaign that is more suited to what he wants to play and leave it at that.

[Daniel Thrace]

If it's not fun for him and it is fun for the other players then he should not be playing in your game. You have extended multiple options to keep it fun for him and bent the initial rules quite a bit. Send him on his way. The whole line about "stop squashing my creativity" sounds like a spoiled brat to me.

[MattR1986]

I can't use whatever sources I want so you are squashing my creativity. Wants to have a pokemon set full of chars likely to interchange depending on what he feels like playing atm or based on challenges upcoming. Oh this guy sounds like he'd be a real treat to have as a GM. I would tell him he's "too advanced for the group" and get rid of him before he becomes a bigger problem and taints the way you guys learn to RPG.

[Gauthok]

Daniel Thrace wrote:

The whole line about "stop squashing my creativity" sounds like a spoiled brat to me.

Bingo!

I doubt this guy would be fun to play with once you're "caught up to him" either. I'm somewhat of an optimizer for my group, but I try not to stomp on other people's builds or make characters that are just plain better than everyone else's. Each player needs to have their chance to shine.

I wouldn't want him as a GM either, unless you all want to watch as his awesome NPCs accomplish everything.

[Volaran]

Gauthok wrote:

I'm somewhat of an optimizer for my group, but I try not to stomp on other people's builds or make characters that are just plain better than everyone else's. Each player needs to have their chance to shine.

This is a good philosophy to have, and there can definitely be a lot of fun to be had being creative within specific limits.

[missnerd86]

Thanks for the replies guys! :) I had considered asking him if he would rather be GM but haven't asked because the difference in play styles between him and the other players is rather drastic, and I can't see him running a game they could enjoy (just an assumption, and I definitely wouldn't mind being wrong about that).
Whenever I subtly suggest that he play with other more experienced players until we are more familiar with the game, he says, "no, no, it's all good"...
We are playing tonight and they are all hanging out playing video games today until we have dinner and then start playing...except the experienced player, who is currently 'trying to find something he can use to make his character interesting' because I said we will still be sticking to the core materials for now, just like I told him we would before we even sat down to make characters.
I think I will ask him to try and deal with things being the way they are til the end of this particular adventure (during which the PCs should level twice I think) and then if he is still unhappy I will have to decide what to do next :s
Thanks again for the advice! :)

[MattR1986]

Beware of the word "concept" I see it coming in your future to get any and all mechanical advantages he can muster.

[blackbloodtroll]

Something along the lines of:

"You sound like you would be a great DM. Unfortunately, you are not the DM for this game. I need you to respect that, just as you would expect it from others, if you were DM. We are new, we want things simple. If you are unable to take the time, and let us play a simple game, with simple rules, then this might not be the game for you. I hope that isn't the case."

Now, he likely thinks he is helping, and that's fine, but you need to set boundaries, and you need to do it immediately.

Being absolutely clear what those boundaries are, early, sets a precedent, that will prevent further possible problems. Nothing gets added, or changed, unless you, the DM, add, or change it.

Let him know you may want his help in the future, but only when you ask, as it is important that you do things on your own, and learn.

I repeat, let him know now, and be clear. All will be better for it.