Some of the flip maps work for some of the encounter maps in Rise, but I think it's a pretty small number.
For physical maps, I think the effort out weighs the reward personally. When I was running face to face games I used d20pro, which is a program you buy and can run games on, also known as a virtual table top. You can play via d20pro, though I was mostly just using it to present the maps up on a screen.
I don't do face to face gaming anymore, so have switched over to roll20...though I think that would work just as well for presenting the maps and creature tokens on a screen.
If you're interested in digital maps, I can try to answer any question you have. If you're only interested in physical maps, I won't be able to help you, but I'm sure someone here will.
For me, particularly when I started, I went for cost effective options. Flip mats are great, but they really require a commitment to reuse them. My first Game Mat was a poster board id gotten laminated at Kinkos. They have blank flip mats that I would recommend first rather than the setting specific ones. You can draw out maps with a set of wet erase markers. I love this game, but I've played with plenty of people who didn't get nearly as into it. I hope you and your friends love the game, but if not, I'd hate for you to spend a fortune and be trying to resell.
That being said, one of the most ingenious ways I've seen people to display maps is to turn a flat screen tv on its back and hook it up to a laptop. There are examples and tutorials a Google search away on how to build cases and covers to protect the TV. That way, all of the maps can be displayed nice and large. It takes a little bit of time and finesse with GIMP or even MS Paint, if you're skilled to make sure the projection comes up the right size, but then the sky's the limit on the number of maps you can use.
I strongly urge using roll20.net - I started using it for my Skype game, and went on to use it for my tabletop game. It makes things far easier. While you have to do some work before the game to set up maps and icons and the like, you would have to do this with a drawn map, and often during the game. It makes distances and the like far easier to handle and allows for reveals and the like which can be a lot of fun.
And to be honest, it helped speed up the game with my group.
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If you're not willing or able to shell out the money for a projector, the time to set up a mapping program, or invest in the preprinted flip mats, then I'll suggest my go-to: a blank flip mat. I used to use the wet erase ones, but I converted to the The Gamemastery ones (conveniently sold here), and haven't looked back. These work with wet erase, dry erase and permanent markers. Also, you're not limited to what's on the map - you can just draw some stuff on there, and you're ready to go. Best $14 you'll spend, I guarantee.
If I can add my own experience, having taken on the mantle of GM only six months ago and taking the time to learn PF myself, I would definitely recommend the RotRL AE AP as your first adventure, especially since it starts out right from the beginner box.
Second, as far as maps go, you have many options. You can draw them out on flip-mats, you can print out community made maps (will be pretty expensive to print them), or you can do as others have suggested and put your maps up on a screen.
My group started out with flip-mats and me drawing out the encounter maps but, as mentioned, that is a bit of a commitment and it can be disruptive if you need to draw new maps in the middle of a session. It became quite obvious to me that my table was too small to facilitate 5 people (4 players and myself) and the flip-mat. So we started using my 42" flat screen and Roll20 to display the maps and character positions. This became more work in preparation but made gameplay much smoother. However, my players are mostly PC gamers and have all put a lot of time into MMOs and other RPGs and I think they ended up treating the game as a game and forgetting about the RP, having been put in a setting similar to their PC game experiences. Every turn became, "I move my guy there and attack. When it's your turn move there and we'll flank. Then you cast that, and on the next turn we'll..." Et cetera, et cetera. It becomes frustrating to have to constantly remind your players that their characters have no concept or turns or rounds or really, any concepts related to the rules at all -- while this is not a problem directly related to the maps, I think putting the maps on a computer screen amplified this effect to some degree in my players. Your mileage may vary.
Not only that, but I had my laptop in my face and every time a question about something came up it was too tempting to look it up, which could take a few seconds or a few minutes and that in itself became quite disruptive. In the end, I decided it was too distracting and was taking out the fun of role playing and imagination, and my players agreed, so I scrapped that and went back to drawing maps, or printing them if it's feasible and not going to cause me to go bankrupt.
I still had a problem with my table not being big enough. So I built a tabletop to sit on top of my regular kitchen table just for playing PF. I took two 2'x4' pieces of 1/2" plywood and covered them in red felt. I attached the two pieces with brass hinges, making it a folding 4'x4' tabletop, and to give it a nice finished look attached brass corner fittings. Now we have a table big enough for the 5 of us, a game map, all my GM resources, and our dice roll beautifully across the surface.
I'm not saying you have to go through this effort, but in my opinion, playing on a table with a flip-mat or other 1" grid with pawns is the way to go. It costs a bit more initially and maybe that's not a commitment you want to make right now. You could forgo any map and play with your imagination, or you could even print out/photocopy the maps from the book onto 8.5x11 as handouts for the players, just so they have a general idea.
Another idea: instead of buying flip-mats, which can be expensive, you could buy a large pad of 1" grid graph paper, something like 24" x 36", and put that on the table. It will cost the same or less as a flip-mat, and when you're done using a map, you can just flip to a new page. It also lets you draw out all your maps before-hand without having to erase an existing map during the game to make space to draw a new one. Bonus: your maps never go away, so you never have to redraw old locations when players revisit them.
The important thing is that you and your players have fun and that you're using a system that works well for everyone. It really doesn't matter how you do this, just that you're doing it to have fun.
EDIT: I wanted to add that I think it's a shame that Paizo doesn't offer full-sized color maps for their APs. I would pay an arm and a leg for a portfolio of full-sized versions of all the maps in the AP.
I wanted to add that I think it's a shame that Paizo doesn't offer full-sized color maps for their APs. I would pay an arm and a leg for a portfolio of full-sized versions of all the maps in the AP.
You and me both. I would pay good money for full-sized maps on nice vinyl for their APs. I'm about to start RotRL myself and would purchase maps for several of the locations.
Isn't there a company that already does this for WotC? Gale Force Nine, or something along those lines. Would love to see the same kind of treatment for Paizo APs.
I wanted to add that I think it's a shame that Paizo doesn't offer full-sized color maps for their APs. I would pay an arm and a leg for a portfolio of full-sized versions of all the maps in the AP.You and me both. I would pay good money for full-sized maps on nice vinyl for their APs. I'm about to start RotRL myself and would purchase maps for several of the locations.
Isn't there a company that already does this for WotC? Gale Force Nine, or something along those lines. Would love to see the same kind of treatment for Paizo APs.
Ditto. What they don't release an adventure with full sized maps and pawn I will never understand. Would the price really make it not affordable?
Oh, and Hangnail, currently my preferred method is to have the maps on a large screen TV, deleting sections not revealed yet in MSPaint, then undoing as they discover more, AND have the players draw out the area on a large Chessex vinyl battle mat (DO NOT use dry erase on them. -.-).
Ditto. What they don't release an adventure with full sized maps and pawn I will never understand. Would the price really make it not affordable?I wanted to add that I think it's a shame that Paizo doesn't offer full-sized color maps for their APs. I would pay an arm and a leg for a portfolio of full-sized versions of all the maps in the AP.You and me both. I would pay good money for full-sized maps on nice vinyl for their APs. I'm about to start RotRL myself and would purchase maps for several of the locations.
Isn't there a company that already does this for WotC? Gale Force Nine, or something along those lines. Would love to see the same kind of treatment for Paizo APs.
Quick mathematics problem:
For the sake of argument, let’s say that crafting a product like this costs about $20,000 in time and effort. It costs, say, another $6 per unit to print the product, and IIRC, a typical print-run for a gaming product is five thousand units. (AFAIK, most of the printers who work at the scale gaming companies need laugh and throw you out if you ask for a print-run of less than two thousand copies of anything.) The publishers need to offset their costs and make a slight profit on the product, so they ask their customers for $12.50 a copy.Then, despite the message-board claims that ‘everybody wants’ this product, the publisher only manages to sell five hundred copies — ten percent of the print-run — because the fan-base on their Internet forums did not quite reflect demand amongst their customer base as a whole.
How many units did the publisher need to sell to break even? How much did the publisher lose on the deal?
Trust me: this stuff isn’t as easy or cheap as casual observers might assume. Very few people get rich in the RPG industry. :-S
Quick mathematics problem:
For the sake of argument, let’s say that crafting a product like this costs about $20,000 in time and effort. It costs, say, another $6 per unit to print the product, and IIRC, a typical print-run for a gaming product is five thousand units. (AFAIK, most of the printers who work at the scale gaming companies need laugh and throw you out if you ask for a print-run of less than two thousand copies of anything.) The publishers need to offset their costs and make a slight profit on the product, so they ask their customers for $12.50 a copy.Then, despite the message-board claims that ‘everybody wants’ this product, the publisher only manages to sell five hundred copies — ten percent of the print-run — because the fan-base on their Internet forums did not quite reflect demand amongst their customer base as a whole.
How many units did the publisher need to sell to break even? How much did the publisher lose on the deal?
Trust me: this stuff isn’t as easy or cheap as casual observers might assume. Very few people get rich in the RPG industry. :-S
Yes, of course that is always a possibility. Not trying to sound critical in any sense, but your post is just conjecture. They could also sell very well. The only way to find out is to try and see.
Considering that Paizo’s Adventure Path line is one of their best selling lines (or maybe even best), it’s at least something to think about implementing. And if it doesn’t work well for one AP, then they can discontinue it, but if it does sell well, then they have another legitimate source of revenue.
Edit: Also, where the maps may be created for certain encounters/locations in the adventure path, it doesn’t necessarily mean only AP customers would find these useful.
Rise of the Runelords is my first AP, but I know that if I bought a nice vinyl map pack of Fox Glove Manor, it could be used for any mansion in any homebrew campaign, as well.
You do realize that Paizo DOES this already. They sell various supplementary products for their products. They also have sold map-packs of the older APs - while these are not full-sized maps, they still are of use for GMs... and thus suggests if they don't do this anymore, the map packs didn't sell.
Also consider this: Each map takes time to work on. The larger the map, the more detail is needed on it. This takes more time. This either takes someone off the job of working on modules and APs... or forces Paizo to hire someone new. If their smaller map packs didn't sell sufficient to continue doing this, then why would they risk large maps not selling? Especially as they put out a similar product already, even if not dedicated specifically to the AP?
I have seen in the year I've been here several fans come up and insist that such-and-such product should be put out. One of the biggies is more "anniversary editions" of older APs so they don't have to spend over $100 for one AP and instead could get the whole thing for a discounted rate. Paizo isn't going to do this, and there is one reason for this:
The Customer is NOT always right. Smart companies realize this.
As customers, all we can do is suggest what we would like to see. And if enough people ask for it, then Paizo will look into seeing if it is feasible. I think we can all agree Paizo DOES listen. They have shown this more than once, they are active on the boards and have made changes when customers have voiced issues and have also come out with new products when enough people have asked.
So it doesn’t hurt to bring up the request for actual battle-mats for APs, considering APs do sell very well. And please, map folios have their use, but they are not what we are talking about here.
And everything takes time, no matter what product it is. That is expectation Paizo is well aware of. It doesn’t make the maps any less feasible than any other new product that would also take more time out of their already busy schedule. And really, Paizo could possibly go through a another party to manufacture the maps, very similar to how they do with WizKids with the Pathfinder Battles line.
I actually would think something like this would be relatively easy for another company to manufacture the maps. As the information would already be taken from existing maps designed in the AP, but would just be rescaled with a higher resolution for the large vinyl mats. There would be no new design needed. But hey, I do not work in art design, so I could be wrong.
But none of us are claiming we are right, and Paizo is wrong in not making these. We are just making our request.
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I strongly urge using roll20.net - I started using it for my Skype game, and went on to use it for my tabletop game. It makes things far easier. While you have to do some work before the game to set up maps and icons and the like, you would have to do this with a drawn map, and often during the game. It makes distances and the like far easier to handle and allows for reveals and the like which can be a lot of fun.
And to be honest, it helped speed up the game with my group.
I strongly urge using fantasygrounds.com. From the GM's perspective, it's a superior product, and, if you're serious about VTT use, is cheaper than roll20.net.
Hangar...can you elaborate on it being superior?
We're an old-school, pencil-and-paper-and-minis group, and we used a 24" wide color roll printer -- just zoomed the PDFs until the squares were 1", hit Print, and laid them across the table. We could draw on them at will, and they made great wrapping paper. The resolution wasn't good, but it was good enough to move minis around, and we really enjoyed it.
But it's WAAAAAAAAY more expensive than buying a big-screen TV these days, and the PDFs that are 10' per square or more can get very painful very fast.
So right now we're looking into TVs, LCD projectors, and mapping software (so far both my friend's research and HangarFlying have gone with fantasygrounds).
But in terms of, "What can Paizo do for us?", we're still downloading and blowing up the PDFs. My big ask would be PDFs with 5' grid lines added, even if they make the PDF look crowded, just because the 10' and above lines make things harder for us.
In other words, we've never had a problem with the poor resolution of the PDFs, and being able to turn map markings off and on (the interactive PDFs) is great. But you need to shell out a few hundred dollars up front to get a really nice setup, and then you feel silly when the resolution looks bad because of the PDFs, not because of your software.
Anyway, just rambling out loud...
We're an old-school, pencil-and-paper-and-minis group, and we used a 24" wide color roll printer -- just zoomed the PDFs until the squares were 1", hit Print, and laid them across the table. We could draw on them at will, and they made great wrapping paper. The resolution wasn't good, but it was good enough to move minis around, and we really enjoyed it.
But it's WAAAAAAAAY more expensive than buying a big-screen TV these days, and the PDFs that are 10' per square or more can get very painful very fast.
So right now we're looking into TVs, LCD projectors, and mapping software (so far both my friend's research and HangarFlying have gone with fantasygrounds).
But in terms of, "What can Paizo do for us?", we're still downloading and blowing up the PDFs. My big ask would be PDFs with 5' grid lines added, even if they make the PDF look crowded, just because the 10' and above lines make things harder for us.
In other words, we've never had a problem with the poor resolution of the PDFs, and being able to turn map markings off and on (the interactive PDFs) is great. But you need to shell out a few hundred dollars up front to get a really nice setup, and then you feel silly when the resolution looks bad because of the PDFs, not because of your software.
Anyway, just rambling out loud...
How about that Hambley Farmstead map where the 1" grid squares represent 320'? Hehe...
Hangar...can you elaborate on it being superior?
Yes, please? I love Roll20 and have no problem paying the monthly sub to support that product and gain the additional, totally awesome, features. The dynamic lighting alone is worth the sub to me.
(Sorry to continue the derail Hangnail! Hope the answers helped!)
Of course it isn't that simple. Few things worth doing are. ;)
But, obviously Paizo knows the numbers. They know how many subscribers they have, roughly how many copies of a module, a map, a box of pawns, will be purchaced. Yet, if they can afford to make these items individually, it confuses me as to why they would be able to make a profit as a package.
I suppose it could be time spent in production, or the relatively specialized use of the product. Yet look at the Beginners Box. It was just reprinted, no? It is essentially exactly what I was hoping for. It seems to sell well.
Oh, my kids LOVED the wrapping paper, but they're around for all the gaming. "Look! It's Thistletop!!! Remember when Halek fell off the bridge right there?"
And my wife does all the wrapping, so I think I'm safe from her spousicidal tendencies... at least for that...
(And el cuervo, wait 'til you get to Xin-Shalast and one square = 750'. "Yes, it takes you 13 rounds. To traverse ONE square...")
(And el cuervo, wait 'til you get to Xin-Shalast and one square = 750'. "Yes, it takes you 13 rounds. To traverse ONE square...")
I actually debated on scanning the folded up Sandpoint map (in the map folio), rescaling it and printing it out to scale (1"=5') on large vinyl maps.
But I think it would be a bit overkill. Maybe I'll do it for
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Hangar...can you elaborate on it being superior?
Mostly, for me, it has to do with organizing the material. This YouTube video does a better job of explaining how good FG is at organizing the material than I ever could.
And while that video specifically addressed D&D 4e, FG supports PF. It isn't a rules agnostic system, the base program supports 3.5, PFRPG, and 4e. (It supports many others as well, they just aren't included up front). The program does a majority of the work, though some spells, effects, and abilities do need player/GM input.
FG doesn't have dynamic lighting, but it does have FoW which the GM controls. For the extra money that I would have to pay Roll20 to get dynamic lighting, it isn't worth it.
Which brings me to the biggest misconception that most people have: that Roll20 is free and FantasyGrounds is not. If the GM has an Ultimate License, players can use Fantasy Grounds for free. But really, the players could care less about what they are playing on, it's all the same to them, they just want to play.
Can GMs use Roll20 for free? Sure, but let's be honest, if they're really serious about the VTT thing, most of them are going to end up getting a subscription anyways. Roll20 is subscription based, Fantasy Grounds is a one-time payment. For as long as I plan on using Fantasy Grounds, I will have paid an exceptionally greater amount for Roll20 just to get dynamic lighting, poorer module organization, and a lack of rules support.
Now, don't get me wrong, Roll20 isn't a bad product, it's just that for what I want a VTT to be able to do, and what bells-and-whistles I want the VTT to have, Fantasy Grounds is the superior, and cheaper, option.
Looked at the site, and yeah...the upfront cost is pretty steep. I'm interested though, so I'll do some research on my own. Thanks for taking the time to explain it, you make some compelling arguments.
I went from d20pro to roll20, and really miss a lot of the system specific bits of the former, but the mapping is so utterly frustrating on d20pro...It'll be interesting to see where FG sets with the system specific bits.
I wish there was more information about Paizo's version of roll20 and the like. I know there's a closed beta-test, but I've not heard any info on it recently.
Same here. I think it's great they're getting in the market, but I imagine chances are really good by the time they get any info out me and my group are going to have found something we like. More I look at it the more I really like Fantasy Grounds.
Two questions I'm curious on though, for anyone willing to answer...
1. A friend of mine is also running games through roll20, and we're curious if there is any legitimate way for us to buy one license and both GM out of it. If that makes sense. For example, on roll20, I can be a supporter and thus get access to dynamic lighting, create a campaign, and then designate my friend as the GM. Anything similar with FG?
2. I really like how on roll20 the game room is essentially always open. One thing I've done in my game is run PbP sessions via facebook, and when someone needs to roll dice they just hop into the room, make the roll, then tell me the result in their FB post and I can go back and check it in the roll20 log. Anything similar with FG?
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Same here. I think it's great they're getting in the market, but I imagine chances are really good by the time they get any info out me and my group are going to have found something we like. More I look at it the more I really like Fantasy Grounds.
Two questions I'm curious on though, for anyone willing to answer...
1. A friend of mine is also running games through roll20, and we're curious if there is any legitimate way for us to buy one license and both GM out of it. If that makes sense. For example, on roll20, I can be a supporter and thus get access to dynamic lighting, create a campaign, and then designate my friend as the GM. Anything similar with FG?2. I really like how on roll20 the game room is essentially always open. One thing I've done in my game is run PbP sessions via facebook, and when someone needs to roll dice they just hop into the room, make the roll, then tell me the result in their FB post and I can go back and check it in the roll20 log. Anything similar with FG?
Ugh...stupid internet ate my post.
1) Not unless you're both willing to GM using the same computer. The more realistic answer is that each of you would have to have at least a Full license ($39.00). In that case, the remaining players would each have to have at least a Lite license ($24.00).
2) FG does have a chat log, and it should also record the dice rolls. Though, in order to access the dice/chat box, you would have to be hosting a session and the players would have to be logged in. So, PbP might be a bit difficult, or even unnecessary, through FG considering everyone would have to be logged in, at which point you may as we'll be playing through FG. (Though, I must say, playing through FB does sound intriguing, how do you go about doing this?)
EDIT: there are a bunch of tutorial videos for FG on YouTube. The best I've found so far are by Dulux Oz. He does a very good job of explaining everything in a clear and concise manner.
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Same here. I think it's great they're getting in the market, but I imagine chances are really good by the time they get any info out me and my group are going to have found something we like.
I was in the same boat. I was planning on waiting to start my CotCT campaign until Paizo's came out, but I got tired of waiting.
Hangar...FB PbP seems to work out much like it does here, though the information is broken up into chunks rather than one long thread.
I'll try to leave details out to avoid spoilers, but the two PbP sessions we've done have involved interrogating a series of bandits. The first "encounter" happened after a roll20 session where the leader of a small group of bandits strong arming a merchant was defeated and captured.
I have a FB group with all the players in my roll20 game as members, so I posted a topic there describing the scene. Bob the Bandit is secured in a chair, he seems surly and hostile. What do you do? Then people posted things they said to him, and occasionally made checks in the roll20 game room like I described above, or I would go in and make checks myself. After they get everything out of him they were going to get, I awarded experience and declared the "encounter" to be over. The group raided the camp that these bandits originated from, and managed to capture that leader...so after the session I posted a new encounter to the FB group, saying: You're riding back home from the bandit camp. It's been a few hours since the fight, but your still in the forest. You hear faint moaning coming from your supposedly unconscious captive, followed quickly by some swearing as she realizes she's bound. What do you do?
There's one player who's very active, a couple who try to be but have a lot less time on their computers, and one that seems to have next to no interest in the PbP aspect. I try to stagger my posts in the PbP threads so there's at least an hour or two between each, to give other people beside the one guy a chance...though it turns out what we needed to stagger were his responses, as I would say something, he would respond within minutes, normally doing whatever anyone else would have actually done or said.
Talking to him so he responds slower, and awarding experience for the PbP sessions multiplied by the number of active participants, had a pretty positive increase in participation.
Things proceeded very similar to the last one.
I've also ran events through private messages via FB. Mostly the party sorcerer tells me she's going to identify magic items, sell whatever loot, look for whatever loot at the store, and do legwork on subject x, subject y, and subject z...then I make the Spellcraft and appraise checks, tell her the results, then make Diplomacy/Know(local) checks, and again tell her the results. A couple times it's been a back and forth conversation, but more often than not it's just a bullet list of info.