PFS Dirge Bard Advice...

[Takhisis]

As the title says. I have decided a dirge bard would be fun to try for PFS and as a result I have come up with the build below. The idea is to be primarily a buffer/debuffer + supporter who uses archery as a thing to fill space between casting rather then the primary focus of the build. Since dirge bards get offensive casting, this build handles casting differently then most bards. Rather then try to take piles of feats to boost DCs you instead focus on weakening your enemy's saves. Dirge bards get great bonuses to fear effects and fear effects in turn lower your enemy's saves against everything else.

In addition, the necromancy school has some very nasty debuffs like enervation and thus this build's idea of "offensive casting" is to hammer opposing saves with fear and necromantic debuffs and then hit them with your save-or suck enchantments. Archery, meanwhile, becomes something you do to not be useless in between casting rather then the focus of your character. You can't match the damage numbers of a dedicated martial archer but you can put out -passable-damage so you can at least contribute somewhat when you are running low on castings. Of course, as a dirge bard, you keep the best bardic buffs, so you will always be able to play the role of buffbot. Outside of combat you are both the face and eventually the textbook through bardic knowledge, using your high cha, good social skills and spells to maneuver social situations. Anyway, I have a rough idea of a build below, but because I am lazy I haven't listed vitals, items or spells known. If any of you have ideas or suggestions for this character I would be grateful!

The rough outline:

Spoiler:

Human Dirge Bard Loose Concept..
Starting Abilities:
Strength: 14
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 10
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 8
Charisma: 16

(stat boosts from leveling go into cha, dex to be boosted with items)

Skills:
Maxed:
Bluff, Diplomacy, Perform (Oratory), Perform (Keyboards), Perception, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device

Half-progressed(I.E. 1 rank every other level)
Knowledge (Religion)

Other Skills:
Knowledge (1 rank in all, possibly more in useful ones like Arcana), Possibly some linguistics if I have the extra points.

Feats:
1st: Point Blank Shot
Human: Precise Shot
3rd: Spell Focus (Necromancy)
5th: Rapid Shot
7th: Spell Penetration
9th: Manyshot
11th: Discordant Voice
13th: Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy)
-PF society doesn't go on much beyond here, so no need to list more feats.)

Anyway, while my feats and the general purpose and playstyle of the build are planned out I have a few questions I would like to know for this build. The first is whether or not it is safe to swap strength and intelligence. Strength 14 gives me +1 extra damage, however, Intelligence 14 will give me the ability to take another skill, such as acrobatics or stealth, and I'll still get +1 damage via having the 12 in strength. Thus, I would like to know if the extra +1 damage is really so valuable that it's worth passing up on acrobatics or stealth for or if the extra skill, and this 14 in int would be better for this character overall since they are not a primary archer but rather using archery as a filler to use in between rounds of casting and buffing.

In addition, while I get necromancy spells, the supply I get of them is limited. Thus, I am wondering which Necromancy spells I should take. I want to get a good amount of fear effects, but I don't want my necromantic arsenal to be strictly fear spells either. I'd like some diversity among my necromantic debuffs and thus I am wondering which ones are an absolute mandatory for this concept and then which ones would be nice to have once the mandatory ones have been accounted for.

If anybody has ideas on any of the concerns listed above, or any other ideas for the build I'd be grateful!

[Keep Calm and Carrion]

There are a few necromancy gems on the bard spell list. Blindness/Deafness is one. Fear is another. Definitely take those. Cause Fear and Scare might be worth taking and swapping out later.

You’ll also get three cross-class necromancy spells by level 10: a level 1 at 2nd level, a level 2 at 6th level, and a level 4 at 10th level...or perhaps a lower level spell, if you have good reason.

At 2nd level, there’s not much to choose from. Litany of Weakness, perhaps, or Chill Touch, or Ray of Enfeeblement. Or perhaps Dispel Undead, which is a nice cantrip at the low levels of undead-heavy campaigns.

At 6th, there are some better choices. Lipstitch is a personal favorite of mine. Ghoul Touch can be quite effective. False Life is a lifesaver. Limp Lash looks good on paper.

At 10th, you’ve got lots of possibilities. Animate Dead opens up a whole new style of play. Shadow Projection offers many interesting possibilites. Bestow Curse is okay, but can be fantastic if your GM gives you some creative leeway in coming up with original curses. Enervation is widely popular, and if you didn’t get/have retrained False Life, Greater False Life is a marked improvement.

If you want to focus on debuffs, I guess I'd suggest Ray of Enfeeblement (retrain to Litany of Weakness later), Lipstitch and Bestow Curse.

[Takhisis]

Yeah, I was definitely looking at Ray of Enfeeblement and Enervation. As for Animate Dead, I am intimately familiar with this spell due to abusing it in non-PF society games but for PF society it loses a lot of it's luster since the minions are not permanent/only last until the end of a single session and you still have to spend the gold on it. (Too bad Blood Money is not a bard spell as well, I have fun abusing that in tandem with Animate Dead on Necromancy specialist wizards and Undead Bloodline sorcs.) Also, False life looks like a powerful buff, more HP is always a good thing! Also, any opinions on whether it would be safe to swap strength and int on this build?

[XMorsX]

That said, the "best" necromancy spells for a dirge bard include:
1st- chill touch; hideous laughter is a better choice for a bard than ray of enfeeblement or ray of sickening
2nd- brow gasher, false life, pernicious poison (if you use poison), spectral hand, steal voice, Limp Lash; command undead is not needed, since Secrets of the Grave lets the dirge bard use standard mind-affecting spells against undead
3rd- healing thief, ray of exhaustion, sands of time, vampiric touch
4th- absorb toxicity, animate dead, enervation, greater false life, poison
5th- greater contagion, magic jar, possess object, suffocation, waves of fatigue
6th- circle of death, create undead, undeath to death, unwilling shield

Samelessly stolen from an older thread. I added Limp Lash.

[Takhisis]

Thanks, I think it's safe to say I've gotten good enough advice on spell selection. Anyway...what about the other concern, the possibility of swapping strength for int? Would the extra skill and thus versatility from having 14 int be better or is the extra +1 to damage from 14 strength(as appose to 12 str if it where swapped with int) more important then the extra skill here?

[XMorsX]

Takhisis wrote:

Thanks, I think it's safe to say I've gotten good enough advice on spell selection. Anyway...what about the other concern, the possibility of swapping strength for int? Would the extra skill and thus versatility from having 14 int be better or is the extra +1 to damage from 14 strength(as appose to 12 str if it where swapped with int) more important then the extra skill here?

It depends on your party composition. No clear answer can be given hear. Will you have enough primary damage dealers in your party?

[Daniel Thrace]

The strength swap would be fine I think. I would not advise it (and no need to do this) but you could probably even get away with no strength bonus with this spec. It is support first, damage second; one point of damage on less than half your actions is likely not going to make a difference. Improving skills is where I would go. Plus, it is an extra skill, an extra language, and an extra point on every single knowledge check.

[TGMaxMaxer]

Since you lose Versatile performance, maxing more than one type of perform isn't worth it for a dirge bard, only keyboard or percussion let you sub for another skill (intimidate).

Depending on your tastes, some of the Masterpieces are good, and as a human you can use your Favored class bonus to take them instead, since you get a spell known and that can trade for a masterpiece. Notably Triple time (for the levels before haste, and in general for any heavy armor wearers) Quickening pulse.

This will free up some skill points as well, since you'll need the knowledge skills to have more than one point in the big 6 (creature ID skills) because around level 5-6 you won't have loremaster and even with the bardic knowledge bonuses, that's a 50% chance of knowing what the monster is and getting a single question.

I'd definitely do the str/int swap, just because in PFS, as a buffer-debuffer, those extra skill points are better than a single point of damage or even 3 with multiple shots(which is far and away your tertiary role).

But that's just me, and the way I built mine. (Dirgebard 7/Crossblooded serpentine/fey - seeker sorc 1)

Gets to use his mind effecting enchantments on Undead, Beasts, Magical Beasts, and Monstrous humanoids as if they are humanoid that share a language, and a +2 on the dc's to boot. Gets a sorc spell 3-4 times a day, 4 extra cantrips, and disable device as a class skill with a +1 perception bonus.

I'd also suggest spell penetration vs spell focus necromancy, mainly because at higher levels your spells are more likely to fizzle because of SR, and not even get to the saving throw point.

But once again, that was me, and I went full debuff caster on mine.

[Takhisis]

Just curious, what kind of feats did you take on your build and what kind of stats did you get? Since I assume you went with a full on caster bard you started out with 18 charisma and lower dex?(possibly 14?) Also, I assume all your feats went into boosting casting? If so, what did you do in-between casting, since bards don't get nearly enough spells per-day to cast every round? Did you take some archery feats but less then I did, perhaps only point blank shot and that's it? I am curious as to what your build looks like as I have never seen a fully casting-speced bard that was effective as bards just don't have the spells per-day to be casting every round. Did you abuse UMD to make up for your lack of spells per-day?

[ErrantPursuit]

@TGMaxMaxer: You know, I never noticed the Serpentine Bloodline before. That's quite good. I am definitely going to steal your inspiration on the Serpentine Bloodline for later abuse. However, you cannot effect any Undead as if they were humanoids without the Undead Bloodline. The Dirge Bard specifically calls out that it cannot treat them as humanoids for any spell requiring that descriptor. Unless there's something I missed?

[Takhisis]

That's correct. The dirge bard can use mind-effecting spells on undead only if they can target non-humanoids. The Undead Bloodline arcana and Agent of the Grave prestige class are the only way in the game to get the ability to control undead with spells like dominate person.

[TGMaxMaxer]

I misspoke about the undead, they can be targeted just not as "humanoids". Most of my spell selection don't have that specific restriction. Sleeping a group of zombies/skel at 2nd, hideous laughter on a mummy was my favorite this level.

Oppressive Boredom or Cacophonus Call after dirge of doom and blistering invective means a DC 22 with a -4 penalty, and is a 2nd round winner. (1st blistering invective, move to perform dirge, my intimidate at 8 is a +22 so I pretty much always get at least 1 round).

Mine was the 20 pt buy for PFS. I ignored str, with with sorc dip I have 4 hours of someone to carry my stuff and reload my xbow for me (unseen servant), Damage by proxy is enough when the enemies are shut down.

Str 10
Dex 14
Con 11
Int 14
Wis 7
Cha 19 (+2)

Lingering Performance and PBS at 1st, precise at 3rd, Sp pen 5th, etc.

DC's started at 17 for most spells I use, now with the headband at 8th level they're 1st: 20, 2nd 21, 3rd 22, etc. Not as good as a Kitsune enchanter, but damn fine.

[Takhisis]

I see, so you did take -some- archery feats. In that case, how many did you take? Did you actually bother with rapid shot and manyshot or did you just take point blank and precise and devote the rest of your feats to casting?

[TGMaxMaxer]

I showed that for a bow build... mine actually has a 7 str and 14 con, my unseen servant carries my gear/loads my +1 Conductive xbow for me.

I'm a Sound Striker as well, and I spend the first couple rounds buffing/SoS casting, then take my 1 shot and if it hits channel weird words thru it for any damage needs, unless/until some errata comes along it's 1d8+ 7x(1d8+CHa) for 2 rounds of perform on a successful attack.

I had to have point blank and precise for that. I didn't bother with any higher archery stuff since I can't load the xbow more than once a round, and I lose damage on the str option anyways.

[Takhisis]

I see. Conductive weapon certainly helps then, in that case. However, I must know, with only 14 dex how did you hit anything? Did you boost dex heavily with items or do you just have the devil's luck?

[TGMaxMaxer]

Umm... bards aren't that bad at attacking, contrary to the forums opinion, and with bardsong up, you get bonuses to hit, his ranged attack is at a +13 with the +1 weapon and Inspire Courage I think. That's not terrible.

The conductive property lets you channel for double, after you have hit, so even the GM who argued that I couldn't have them both at once had to concede that by the time I was channeling weird words I had already hit, since it activates after the successful attack.

Not that I use it much, 25/26 will saves (factoring in a round of debuffs) is usually where my character lies, the conductive bow is a neat trick when I run out of SoS spells mostly.

Bards can be built to be damage dealers in their own right (+1 Conductive Musket on my gunslinger/sound striker), but they are much more effective making the barb/2hf hit on his iteratives than trying to steal his thunder IMO.

[ErrantPursuit]

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

I misspoke about the undead

I was hoping I had missed something. Ah well.

[Takhisis]

What level is he? And how much dex after items? I assume your using a dex item of at least +4 to get an 18 in dex?

[TGMaxMaxer]

1sorc/8 bard. +6 BAB +3 dex (2 belt) +1 weapon +2 Inspire is +12. That's not counting all the extra things that the rest of the party should be doing (or me prebuffing, good hope is 8 minutes). Then there's a bless, haste, good hope, etc. Usually I'm at a 50% chance to hit, like I said, it's not his main thing.

I usually have my Unseen servant who carries my bags use oil of bless weapon on my bolts for demon fights, "pour the blue vial on the bolts" being a fairly simple task for it to perform, also it reloads for me in the event that making a shot every round is the best use of my time (usually on mooks, high range combat, ships, etc.)

That spell is a fantastic solution to action economy, until the enemy hits you with a fireball or such and he takes AoE damage and poofs.

[Takhisis]

I see. 50% is a gamble, but not that bad a gamble, so I see how the 14 dex build could potentially work out. However, I have another question, until you get the dex belt and conductive weapon, what did you do in-between rounds of casting? Your build seems very item dependent to do any kind of meaningful ranged combat so at lower levels before you got those weapons what did you do in between rounds of casting since you didn't have the spells per-day to cast every round?

[TGMaxMaxer]

At the lower levels, I still had the xbow and the AC's were lower, I didn't bother with conductive until level 1sorc/6bard when you get weird words.

In my experience, most PFS fights are over in 3 rounds (unless they're very mobile).

At 4th level I would use wordstrike to sunder enemy weapons, usually bows/hafted weapons to get the damage thru.

I was also usually the one with the CLW wand, the face, knowledge ID guy, and sorc got me ranged touch attack cantrips that were better than any other damage I could do usually.

I didn't expect to do damage, and all the parties I ever played with were fine with that after the first 2 rounds of combat from level 2 up, because of all the other things I did cover for them.

PFS is all about picking your battles, and 90% of the players focus on DPR, but dump int to the point of putting points in perception and 1 other skill. DPR, Control, Face, Healing, Skillchecks. I can handle 3 of those very well, and handle off healing.

I could have built for more damage, and had a lot less buff/debuff ability, and slightly lower face/knowledges, and still been just as good a party member, but not covered so many bases that in my area are left fairly scarce.

[Takhisis]

I see. How many knowledge skills did you take each level, may I ask? The general rule of thump is 1 point in each knowledge and several more in the monster ID knowledge's, so I'd like to know how many skill points you devoted to knowledge skills each level to be the textbook? Did you skip out on things like acrobatics and stealth to get more knowledge skills?

[TGMaxMaxer]

I went with pretty much that. I didn't try to max all the knowledges, but to keep the creature IDs close to maxed after factoring bardic knowledge bonuses. Say, 1 every other level to keep up. My first 3 levels of FCB were skills, until I got to the point of adding a new spell known (usually subbed for masterpieces).

I had considered taking a level of Lore oracle and adding charisma to knowledge checks and getting back the take 10 ability that dirge bard gives up.

[Takhisis]

I see. That makes sense. Thanks for all the information, by the way!