So... I pretty much mishandled this entire encounter in my estimation.
My group didn't pick up on the whole DON'T kill Cindermaw (and I didn't think they could/would do it). They were even still 10th level. I did back off and didn't just pound them every round b/c I was trying to keep them alive to get down the gullet.
Anyway, any suggestions on how to proceed? Has this happened to other encounters?
Thanks from a stoopid GM.
I was worried about this w/ my group and upped its hit points while stressing that the worm was considered holy in Shoanti culture.
But I think you can keep going without much difficulty. They'll be viewed as powerful warriors, but ones who slew an almost divine creature. Use this as the justification for making them hold up the totems, to fully earn the clan's trust.
I have to agree with Hylozoist. My party could have easily killed the creature, but instead performed the ritual as indicated.
It's too late for that now, so just play up that they've earned the tribe's respect as warriors, but also their distrust as destructors. They need to do more to earn the tribe's trust. This rolls in the totem test very naturally, and explains why the tribe still doesn't entirely trust them.
Thanks for the ideas. They sound pretty reasonable.
What would you think if the Cindermaw is almost immortal (ala a phoenix). The group may think they've killed him, but he is consumed by an unexplained fire, only to be reborn. They group must now face the "true" Cindermaw, a great flaming purple worm (kind of like the fire snake from the last Harry Potter movie)!
I know this moves the topic to opinion, but would you give the group a second shot at this fight, or just roll with adventure as is?
Thanks
My 2 cents.
I like your idea, but I wouldn't have them fight Cindermaw a second time. I would just roll with it. Otherwise you risk having the players think that you are trying to punish them or worse feel like there is only one way to get through the encounter.
I think it's important to respect player agency in this instance (and in most instances). As the DM you set the scene for them and they made a choice as to how they were going to handle the situation with Cindermaw. They managed to kill this badass legendary purple worm. That's really cool! It should have some lasting effect on the campaign.
What I would recommend instead if you still want to go with the phoenix idea is one of two things:
-Cindermaw is reborn immediately and shows the PCs respect for having killed it by taking them back to the Shoan-ti on its back (à la Dune) the Shoan-ti show them respect for taming the worm. Cindermaw then leaves but maybe it makes an appearance later in the campaign?
or
-Cindermaw dies, and leaves behind some sort of black rock with glowing flaming cracks (i.e. the pheonix egg), the PCs get to decide what to do with it, if they keep it, perhaps it hatches sometime between Scarwall and Crown of Fangs and they get their very own baby Cindermaw cohort. If they give it to the Shoan-ti, they are rewarded as above.
My 2 cents.
I like your idea, but I wouldn't have them fight Cindermaw a second time. I would just roll with it. Otherwise you risk having the players think that you are trying to punish them or worse feel like there is only one way to get through the encounter.
I think it's important to respect player agency in this instance (and in most instances). As the DM you set the scene for them and they made a choice as to how they were going to handle the situation with Cindermaw. They managed to kill this badass legendary purple worm. That's really cool! It should have some lasting effect on the campaign.
What I would recommend instead if you still want to go with the phoenix idea is one of two things:
-Cindermaw is reborn immediately and shows the PCs respect for having killed it by taking them back to the Shoan-ti on its back (à la Dune) the Shoan-ti show them respect for taming the worm. Cindermaw then leaves but maybe it makes an appearance later in the campaign?
or
-Cindermaw dies, and leaves behind some sort of black rock with glowing flaming cracks (i.e. the pheonix egg), the PCs get to decide what to do with it, if they keep it, perhaps it hatches sometime between Scarwall and Crown of Fangs and they get their very own baby Cindermaw cohort. If they give it to the Shoan-ti, they are rewarded as above.
Thank you for the feedback, Laric!
I agree that I don't want to punish the group, and that wasn't my intent. But I am too laser-focused on them "succeeding" in this challenge, I think. Thus, me considering a second chance. And, admittedly, I am frustrated that some of the group (namely, the aggressive cleric of Kord) didn't respect the "don't kill" aspect of this challenge. But, in hindsight, I wonder if it was more me not setting the tone that Cindermaw is "holy", and more that he is just a legendary beast held in awe by the barbarians. Too much temptation. Alas, weak GMing abounds...
That said, I like the suggestions, and with a minor bit of retcon, could make this happen.
Again, a big thank you to all!
No problem,
And I wouldn't blame myself if I were you. Players make bad decisions all the time. They just have to be willing to live with the consequences.
To expand on my previous post, although I don't think you should have them fight Cindermaw a second time, that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any bad repercussions from their actions.
If you think the players have acted carelessly towards the Shoan-ti so far, and persist in being openly hostile then perhaps they fail in their quest to be accepted.
Maybe they have to face the gargoyles, cinderlander and red mantis alone and they don't get the reward ceremony at the end of the adventure (thus leaving them ill prepared for some of the dangers in Scarwall).
In that case, you could always have Sial or Laori approach them and offer to guide them to Scarwall.
If they fail the test, consider the further repercussions of the Shoanti marching to war against Korvosa. Especially since this is arguably the weakest Korvosa has been, possibly in centuries.
Players make bad mistakes some times. Sometimes players do bad things on purpose to and it's important to make the distinction. For instance, at one point, one of my players, a Mystic Theurge, was trying to negotiate with a Fire Giant that had been tortured using a 'frost' cattle-prod. Another player got bored and made the bad decision (that he later tried to back up) of shooting the Fire Giant in the rear with an icy burst bow. The Fire Giant turned around and saw the bow that the Mystic Theurge had (but wasn't using) and saw red, and jumped onto the Theurge. The Theurge was flying in the middle of an empty tower, and the Giant was on a platform and rode the Theurge to the bottom before pounding him into unconsciousness (and nearly killing him).
It was an accidentally intentional bad mistake.
When my players went through this scenario, I had the Cleric roll a Knowledge (Religion) check and he realized immediately that this wasn't just some random test, it had some fairly religious or spiritual significance. I would imagine your Cleric of Kord would recognize something similar, though it's also very possible he didn't (Clerics are rather lacking in skill points).
Finding out whether or not it was an accident or whether or not it was intentional is a big deal. If it was an accident (they didn't realize the significance of Cindermaw) you should try and salvage it the best you can. If it was on purpose, I wouldn't bother attempting to salvage it, sometimes Players need to know that there are consequences to their actions.
Remember, just because you're the Hero, doesn't mean you never fail. Frodo Baggins and Luke Skywalker are both classic examples of heroes, yet Frodo ultimately failed in resisting the ring, and Luke failed to save his friends in Cloud City (amongst other things).
Laric, I am a somewhat inexperienced GM (and VERY critical), so I tend to blame my performance after "bad" games.
Yeah, I'm not completely convinced that some of the players didn't kill Cindermaw on purpose, but I'm not sure. And, I'm not blameless in that. As I said, I don't think that I played up the story in quite the right way. I tended to describe Cindermaw more as a legendary beast that "couldn't be killed". If he could be killed, he wouldn't be Cindermaw the Clan Eater, this great ancient legend. I didn't outright emphasize a spiritual/sacred connection.
After the fight, the cleric of Kord (who brought down Cindermaw) basically said he thought that Cindermaw was going to be unkillable (meaning he thought it would have unlimited HP). So, despite the fact that the fighter had gotten swallowed, and Cindermaw was backing off, the cleric kept on swinging. Reasonable, except that EVERYONE else in the group got the fact that they weren't supposed to kill Cindermaw... so I dunno.
All of you guys have given me good suggestions, and plenty to consider. I really appreciate it.
|
Didn't have this issue, as we were to busy tricking our way into the tribe: We had the highest level shadowdancer simply shadow teleport out of him :) Worked fine.
We sorta cheated on the pillars test too.. but shhhh... that is a secret, don't tell the tribe. The bullets combat made no sense as written (there was not enough room for them all to attack at once on the top of the hill...)
The only other real issue I had with this entire series was the lack of any sort of door in Scarwall's tower AFTER you get into it. And the demon that doesn't fit into the room (or rather, would take up the entire room, so how could it be hiding?)
Didn't have this issue, as we were to busy tricking our way into the tribe: We had the highest level shadowdancer simply shadow teleport out of him :) Worked fine.
We sorta cheated on the pillars test too.. but shhhh... that is a secret, don't tell the tribe. The bullets combat made no sense as written (there was not enough room for them all to attack at once on the top of the hill...)
The only other real issue I had with this entire series was the lack of any sort of door in Scarwall's tower AFTER you get into it. And the demon that doesn't fit into the room (or rather, would take up the entire room, so how could it be hiding?)
??? What demon is too big?
[Edit]