Hey folks. My players are about to assault Fort Rannick. They have already killed the Grauls, and have been making fun of me for including +1 ogre hooks in amongst the loot--largely based on the 'how the heck would an ogre even know how to make a magical weapon' point of view.
I had precisely the same thought when I read through the adventure, so I solved the problem by turning Barl Breakbones into a soul forger.
It makes plenty of sense for someone of Barl's (new) talents to be sent by his boss to oversee a group of ogres that make weapons.
Only problem is, it now makes some less sense for Lamatar Bayden to be turned into a frost wight, because frankly Barl no longer has the right spells or interest to make it happen.
There are plenty of ways to handwave the problem and say e.g. "Mokmurian did it" (although I plan to turn Mokmurian into a transmuter) or "the hags did it", but I was interested to see if anyone had an alternative--something else I could turn Lamatar into, or apply a template to him, that would make things interesting. Let me know what you think!
He used a scroll.
Personally, I've been eliminating the enchanted Ogre Hooks from the game (though to be honest, it's not that difficult - all you need is someone with Craft Magic Armor/Weapons, and a mastercraft item) and increasing other items instead. It makes things more interesting and reduces the number of large-sized weapons that honestly don't do anything. And which I honestly can't see an actual market for. "Yeah, I bought this great enchanted Ogre Hook so when I cast Enlarge Person on my guards, they can use them!" Riiiight.
Hmmm, I'm a little confused (and even more sarcastic) but can you direct me to the rule that says the monster's possessions have to be useful or easily converted to cash by the PC's?
They're ogres. They use Ogre Hooks. Some of them might have magical versions.
And...
Easy. Back in 1st edition AD&D, monsters sat on treasure. If there was a +1 short sword, the goblins would keep it in a chest because That Was How It Was Done (and the webcomic Goblins made fun of that theme).
Come 3rd edition D&D and then Pathfinder, it became more likely for monsters to start USING the magical treasures they possess. And eventually for them to have customized items like +1 Ogre Hooks. But these items count as treasure, and you will likely have Ogres without a lot of treasure but with several magic items.
Why would their weapons or armor not have a value? Sure, they may be too large for the PCs, but that doesn't stop the fact that they still have a gold-piece value. Denying players that value results in reduced treasure for the PCs, and thus the players end up under-equipped.
(Small note - I don't see a problem with players having less treasure than the module calls for. I like low-treasure campaigns - to the point that I'm running a 5th level group through "The Snows of Summer" (for levels 1-4, though I'm scaling critters up to be a threat) WITHOUT scaling up the treasure they find. It's made for an interesting dynamic.)
We've strayed off topic from the OP question about alternatives for Lamatar Bayden and I seem to have gotten my signals crossed...
I interpreted the line from the OP - "... and have been making fun of me for including +1 ogre hooks in amongst the loot--largely based on the 'how the heck would an ogre even know how to make a magical weapon' point of view." And your line "...and reduces the number of large-sized weapons that honestly don't do anything. And which I honestly can't see an actual market for" to collectively be challenging the presence of magical weapons that 99.9% of PC's can't use or sell in treasure.
And I agree with that - the players can't use them and I have a hard time believing they'll find a market for selling them - so in the end they are almost valueless to the PC's. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be the Orge's principle treasure - to the Ogres they are immensely valuable.
Of course I tend to be pretty blase' about treasure levels. I'm new to PF but I've yet to find a published adventure that isn't chock full of loot. I have complete confidence in my PC's ability to eke out a living.
And the PC's could always find another ogre tribe to sell them to...
Option 1, they are relatively new and were created when Barl arrived and built the forge (which wasn’t originally part of the clanhold, see area D6, p177 of Anniversary edition). Yet nobody within the clanhold has the capability to create a magic weapon; Dorella (p155) is listed as “the only spellcaster”. This is the explanation I ran with and ‘fixed’ by making Barl a soul forger instead of necromancer. This also explains why only the Kreeg ogres (the ones with five fighter levels) have them—they were especially made (or just especially enchanted from pre-existing masterwork weapons) and given to the ogres who could use them best.
Option 2, they have been around for decades/millennia/a long time. This one, to me, strains belief because the odds of an Int 6 ogre being capable of keeping track of his or her weapon and then handing it on (or having it forcefully taken from him/her in a dispute, say) should be rather low. On p175 the ogres defending the clanhold are described as having “rusty” hooks, which speaks to the amount of care they take with their weapons. Then having just the precise number required to equip only the Kreeg ogres, but no more (none are found as treasure at Hook Mountain) seems a little too perfect. In addition, from a metagame perspective, this would force me to come up with an understanding of how, when, and by whom they were created so I can present that explanation to my players. Too much effort, to be honest.
Option 3, the weapons were enchanted for a price by some third party. To which I say “sure, that’s possible”, but it must have been a long time ago because nothing about the Kreegs as they’re described in the AP leads me to believe they would be capable of that level of decision-making. No food sources are described in their clanhold, so they must hunt to stay alive, and such a subsistence lifestyle makes it difficult to create anything that involves discretionary effort (e.g. plans beyond what it takes to keep food in their bellies). This is supported by the fact that they have been fought to a standstill by a handful of poorly-equipped, undersupplied rangers for the last 45 years. It took Lucrecia and Barl together to galvanise them into action against the Black Arrows in any sort of coordinated fashion.
The short of it is, Craft Magic Arms and Armor requires a spellcaster of at least 5th level. Sure, there’s Master Craftsman, but that still leaves the problem of where they forged them--it certainly wasn’t at the clanhold.
And yes, I could absolutely handwave it all, but my players--while they’re great at suspending their disbelief for things like magic and people doing impossible things the way they do in roleplaying games--have a need for consistency in their games. So if there are +1 ogre hooks, they need there to be an explanation about where they came from. Having a forge tended by a necromancer and a bunch of Bestiary-standard ogres with no ranks in Craft (weapon) will be a massive plot hole for them. So I fixed it--for my players. Nothing wrong with anyone else taking a different view.
But, back to what I was actually asking: I no longer have a necromancer at the clanhold. This makes the standard explanation for Lamatar’s transformation into a wight impossible to achieve. I can fix this a number of ways (someone else did it, a scroll was used, etc) and keep him a wight, but I am looking to see if anyone actually has a more interesting idea, especially since my group has just finished Age of Worms and we’re quite sick of undead. : )
Can anyone suggest anything?
How about a bhuta? "A bhuta is a ghostlike undead creature born of horrible death or murder in a natural setting. It is a manifestation of rage at the injustice of a death that interrupted important business or unsated desires." (Pathfinder OGC) This seems like it fit him pretty well, and you could make his transformation spontaneous.
Easy. Back in 1st edition AD&D, monsters sat on treasure. If there was a +1 short sword, the goblins would keep it in a chest because That Was How It Was Done (and the webcomic Goblins made fun of that theme).
There was nothing inherent about old school D&D that made this so. This is more likely a result of the dungeon masters you've known getting better over time.
Easy. Back in 1st edition AD&D, monsters sat on treasure. If there was a +1 short sword, the goblins would keep it in a chest because That Was How It Was Done (and the webcomic Goblins made fun of that theme).
Ahem. 1e DMG page 93:
Placement of Magic Items
...If you decide placement of the wand is appropriate, you will make certain that its guardian will use it in defense. ... The magic boots will be worn by a denizen of the area. While the magic arrows might not be used against the player characters, the +1 dagger will be....Guardians tend to employ the items routinely...
Mind you, that is engulfed in such a slough of 6-point Gygaxian waffle that only the most dedicated DM would have spotted it.
For the OP: I do appreciate your point, and it struck me as a bit odd too. From a balance perspective, you could just make the Ogre Hooks masterwork, and unless the PCs (or more likely, some summoned beasties) have DR/magic it'll make no difference. Add something expensive if you want to restore the WBL.
As an alternative to making Barl the forger, add a captive, charmed dwarven 5th level master smith. You can promote him to 10th level if you need an emergency replacement PC, though that may stretch credibility. You'll probably need Lucrecia to do the charming as Barl is a non-enchanter. Not that Barl is obviously capable of creating a frost wight.
Similarly, to make Lamatar, add either a caster, a beastie or an item. You could hand-wave it away with a scroll, but that's narratively unsatisfying for the PCs. I'd suggest some custom necromantic item such as Lamatar's funky crown (where did he get that?).
Hmm. Will definitely look into the crown, and perhaps tie it to further clues rather than the usual ham-fisted 'here's a random diary page that just happens to have useful information on it' approach.
Like if the crown is Thassilonian in nature and forces the PCs to go back to Sandpoint to consult Brodert Quink...?
Thanks Mudfoot, that's an excellent idea, I think I will run with that one.
And thanks to everyone else who has contributed as well. I appreciate your time!
The answer to 'where did they come from' is sort of obliquely answered in the description of the forge room in the clan hold:
"Many more ogres toil deep in the bowels of Hook Mountain, in cave mines hundreds of feet below."
Said mines must have existed before Barl's visit, and presumably contain the forges they used before he showed up.
A couple ogres with Master Craftsman and you have the other half of your answer, no changes really needed.
Personally I think Barl as a Thassilonian specialist is a nice bit of flavor and foreshadowing for Mokmurian that you will miss out on if you make him a magus - and will your players really pick up on the soul forger thing?
You know, you don't need to tell the PCs what abilities the Ogres all have. There could be a spellcasting Ogre. Hell, the former chief of the Ogre tribe could have had spellcasting abilities and the crafting feat and used this to strengthen his tribe. We don't know.
