I asked this question in the Skull and Shackles campaign setting, but it is also applicable here. Is having a +25 CMB for trip to high or low for 7th level?
I don't want to autosucceed, but I also don't want to have a low chance for my CMB's to go off.
Is there an appropriate rule of thumb for CMB at any given level in the same way there is for average monster AC?
6 (bab) + 6 (strength+belt) + 2 (lore warden) + 2 (wayfinder with dusty rose ion stone) + 2 (brawler enchant) + 4 (trip/greater trip) + 1 (amulet of mighty fists)+ 1 (bred for war) +1 (weapon training)
I'm an unarmed maneuver master 1/lore warden 6
Trip is my highest maneuver since I get my enchant, weapon training, and brawler enchant added to the maneuver.
On paper the build looks really solid (although we roll for stats, so my stat roll was really good). I need a high trip score since it procs 2 extra attacks of opportunity, and allows me to make a free grapple.
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Off-hand, I don't know any rule of thumb, but against most trippable opponents, discounting multiple legs, +25 at 7th level is probably well into the "I didn't roll a 1." zone.
Best advice: Look in the bestiary at the critters in there that are CR 8 or so, and run a general census of their CMD, along with noting which are immune (flying, swimming, etcv,.) and which are more difficult (more than 2 legs)
Given the setting, there are probably going to be opponents and encounters where you won't be able to trip anyone. Then again, with enough AoOs, you get to stand at the end of the gangplank, knocking opponents/boarders into the water right and left.
For me it too high or too low should be compared to how much effort it took to get there, not just your level, and don't worry somewhere around level 10 monsters get really difficult to use combat maneuvers against them. Enjoy it while you can.
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For me it too high or too low should be compared to how much effort it took to get there, not just your level, and don't worry somewhere around level 10 monsters get really difficult to use combat maneuvers against them. Enjoy it while you can.
Note that this is affected by certain campaign parameters. I suspect Skull & Shackles, being pirate-based, is probably going more into high level humanoids than general monsters at high level. If so, you get the trip (and disarm) stuff for a long time.
Just make sure you aren't running a one-trick pony, so that you can still participate/provide usefulness, even in encounters where tripping is not an option.
6 (bab) + 6 (strength+belt) + 2 (lore warden) + 2 (wayfinder with dusty rose ion stone) + 2 (brawler enchant) + 4 (trip/greater trip) + 1 (amulet of mighty fists)+ 1 (bred for war) +1 (weapon training)
You could potentially get a much higher trip score if you do 3 things with the build:
1. use a weapon instead of unarmed and assuming you have standard wealth for your level (the trick is to buy a +2 dueling weapon instead of using the expensive AoMF)2. fury's fall (let's assume you have a dex of 14)
3. weapon focus
This would grant you an extra +9 to your CMB to trip.
It gets frustrating if you fight flying enemies or dragons all the time, unless your DM rules that tripping a flying opponent may reduce his flight height or even make it crash.
Color me impressed. I thought I was doing good when I was able to get it up to +16 at level 6. :p
I'm hoping that the raising CMB of monsters matters less, since I'll be fighting pirates, and hopefully the many humanoids will allow trip to be viable throughout the adventure path.
edit: playing the Skull and Shackles campaign.
I would think that there is a good chance you are right (have not read S&S myself). However, just keep in mind that you will need to be viable when Trip won't work. In a campaign that features a lot of time on the seas, its not hard to imagine, for instance, that you'd have to fight creatures in the water, or really big critters like a Monktopus or Kraken. :p
But yeah, there likely will be plenty of humanoids to turn your attention toward one would think.
My goal is to be a viable unarmed fighter maneuver specialist. So I can also grapple/dirty trick/bull rush people too.
Still, I'm putting out 1d6+ 14 damage per hit at level 7 which (while not great) keeps me a viable source of damage output. At least I hope this is decent damage per hit.
Combined with the maneuvers, that is probably not that bad -- so long as you are not hoping to be the primary damage dealer anyway. The paladin or barbarian will of course out damage you, but may not be as good at the maneuvers. I can say that Bull Rushing an opponent off a ship could certainly help end a fight quickly. Likewise pinning the caster is a great move too.
The most important question of course is: Are you having fun? If the answer is yes, then your build is a success.
my to hit bonus currently +16/11 without power attack and 14/9 with it.
As to "am I having fun"
the answer is I haven't played him yet, but I'm really excited too. My cleric died at the end of book 2, and this is my current replacement character for the start of book 3. So I'm hoping he'll be really fun.
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So like, how much damage is acceptable as a primary damage dealer at level 7. 14 static damage is more than significant...
A reasonably optimized fighter could have
24 str: for 7 base damage or 10 with a 2-hander.
+2 weapon.
+2 weapon specialization.
+1 weapon training.
+1 from some misc magic item.
Using a great sword they have 2d16+16 per hit. I could be generous and assume their weapon is + enchanted with energy for +1d6 and that this fighter is always enlarged for +1 str giving them a base if 8 or 12 damage.
This makes it 3d6+18.(might be more due to enlarges effect on damage dice).
Compared to 1d6+14. There is a 9 point difference in damage but most enemies at this level don't have more than 100 hp.
In a party with more than one person dealing damage, no enemy can take too many hits from either character.
I bring this up because other primary damage dealers usually don't have bells and whistles set up exactly like that for their level (I gave better gear than should have been available assuming the character has any other gear).
This also assumes they aren't well rounded etc.
A paladin and barbarian are exceptions IMO, because they have massive damage bonuses due to specific class features. Those are impossible (nearly) to compete with for other martials. This does not make them the only primary damage dealers. A fighter and ranger both make excellent damage dealers, even with dramatically lower for on foes a barbarian and paladin excel in facing.
Could his 1d6+14 be a few points higher. Sure. Is it needed? Not necessarily.
So like, how much damage is acceptable as a primary damage dealer at level 7. 14 static damage is more than significant...
A reasonably optimized fighter could have
24 str: for 7 base damage or 10 with a 2-hander.
+2 weapon.
+2 weapon specialization.
+1 weapon training.
+1 from some misc magic item.Using a great sword they have 2d16+16 per hit. I could be generous and assume their weapon is + enchanted with energy for +1d6 and that this fighter is always enlarged for +1 str giving them a base if 8 or 12 damage.
This makes it 3d6+18.(might be more due to enlarges effect on damage dice).
Compared to 1d6+14. There is a 9 point difference in damage but most enemies at this level don't have more than 100 hp.In a party with more than one person dealing damage, no enemy can take too many hits from either character.
I bring this up because other primary damage dealers usually don't have bells and whistles set up exactly like that for their level (I gave better gear than should have been available assuming the character has any other gear).
This also assumes they aren't well rounded etc.A paladin and barbarian are exceptions IMO, because they have massive damage bonuses due to specific class features. Those are impossible (nearly) to compete with for other martials. This does not make them the only primary damage dealers. A fighter and ranger both make excellent damage dealers, even with dramatically lower for on foes a barbarian and paladin excel in facing.
Could his 1d6+14 be a few points higher. Sure. Is it needed? Not necessarily.
to be fair, I'm not worried about damage at all. My friends are pretty terrible power gamers. By that I mean they try really hard to build OP characters, but somehow always pick the biggest trap feats. For instance we have a feint focused rogue, who wanted to be our #1 damage dealer via feint and sneak attack. So I'm sure that my character will keep pace in damage.
That's one reason i was worried my bonus might be too high. I really do want to have some fun and throw people around, while kicking them in the nuts, and then holding them in place by their little pinky, but I don't want my GM to have to modify encounter around me to the point where my friends characters feel useless if they wanted to perform a maneuver.
I hope that made sense.
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Totally, I was just picking on the fact that the mindset for most on the boards seems to be that if you don't deal triple digit static damage per hit and have an attack bonus higher than bill gates net worth, then your character cannot fulfil any meaningful role, let alone one such as primary damage dealer/combatant, etc.
It just feels like people make opinions based on single player hack and slash games and forget that there are other people playing with you. If every last player dealt divine being damage encounters would be over on the first or second players standard action....
1d6+14 and not power attacking or using a two handed weapon sounds more than good enough. You punch through any dr you should ever expect to encounter and when you get to ignore it, the target is going to hurt. Your crits will make the enemies cry (2d6+28 is more than a chunk of even a bosses health) or drop them if done later in the combat.
This is why I was irked with the comment about not being a primary damage dealer. Because if you go into damage numbers much higher than what you already have, you start dropping full health enemies in very, very few attacks. 3 hits, take 60-75. Now the aoe from the caster finishes you and allows me to drop the next enemy in only one hit. Why do we need other party members at that point? Combat is now 1-2 rounds. Stupid rocket tag.
Don't get me wrong, sometimes I like damage. I am making a high damage dealing monk myself. You just don't want everyone doing that.
Totally, I was just picking on the fact that the mindset for most on the boards seems to be that if you don't deal triple digit static damage per hit and have an attack bonus higher than bill gates net worth, then your character cannot fulfil any meaningful role, let alone one such as primary damage dealer/combatant, etc.
It just feels like people make opinions based on single player hack and slash games and forget that there are other people playing with you. If every last player dealt divine being damage encounters would be over on the first or second players standard action....
1d6+14 and not power attacking or using a two handed weapon sounds more than good enough. You punch through any dr you should ever expect to encounter and when you get to ignore it, the target is going to hurt. Your crits will make the enemies cry (2d6+28 is more than a chunk of even a bosses health) or drop them if done later in the combat.
This is why I was irked with the comment about not being a primary damage dealer. Because if you go into damage numbers much higher than what you already have, you start dropping full health enemies in very, very few attacks. 3 hits, take 60-75. Now the aoe from the caster finishes you and allows me to drop the next enemy in only one hit. Why do we need other party members at that point? Combat is now 1-2 rounds. Stupid rocket tag.
Don't get me wrong, sometimes I like damage. I am making a high damage dealing monk myself. You just don't want everyone doing that.
Agreed especially at higher levels when I grab twf, and get 2 free aoo on every trip+1 more when they stand.
Enough hits ought to at least make the build a good secondary to the teams primary damage dealers.
So like, how much damage is acceptable as a primary damage dealer at level 7. 14 static damage is more than significant...
A reasonably optimized fighter could have
24 str: for 7 base damage or 10 with a 2-hander.
+2 weapon.
+2 weapon specialization.
+1 weapon training.
+1 from some misc magic item.Using a great sword they have 2d16+16 per hit. I could be generous and assume their weapon is + enchanted with energy for +1d6 and that this fighter is always enlarged for +1 str giving them a base if 8 or 12 damage.
This makes it 3d6+18.(might be more due to enlarges effect on damage dice).
Compared to 1d6+14. There is a 9 point difference in damage but most enemies at this level don't have more than 100 hp.In a party with more than one person dealing damage, no enemy can take too many hits from either character.
I bring this up because other primary damage dealers usually don't have bells and whistles set up exactly like that for their level (I gave better gear than should have been available assuming the character has any other gear).
This also assumes they aren't well rounded etc.A paladin and barbarian are exceptions IMO, because they have massive damage bonuses due to specific class features. Those are impossible (nearly) to compete with for other martials. This does not make them the only primary damage dealers. A fighter and ranger both make excellent damage dealers, even with dramatically lower for on foes a barbarian and paladin excel in facing.
Could his 1d6+14 be a few points higher. Sure. Is it needed? Not necessarily.
Keep in mind though the fighter is probably going to be power attacking, for an additional +6 to damage, and will also almost certainly have a higher crit range, meaning more crits.
That being said, your general point still holds. It all depends in how you view the character, your role, and whether or not you are having fun. The build the OP presents has the advantage of good maneuvers and a little better skills than the traditional fighter at the cost of some damage. Particularly in a campaign like S&S I could see those maneuvers more than making up for the lost damage. In encounters where maneuvers are not an option, sure he's going to be a bit behind the fighter/barb/pally, but then most characters are going to run into situations where they are not ideal. That's one particularly nice aspect of this character though, it does at least have a few options available to make it a bit more versatile. For my mileage, I love versatility, just don't be surprised if you are consistently dealing less damage.