^Topic.
Our party ~20th level party of 3 PCs had to fight two Great Wyrm Green Dragons and a Quickling with levels in Rogue. The situation is that we had prep time enough for buffs, and could buy items in advance, and were traveling via magic portal, directly to where the fey and the dragons were causing havoc. Since we seemed rather out-numbered, I asked my GM if I could buy 10 doses of cockatrice grit and he agreed. The fight went down like this: Quickling has initiative, and so spring attacks/feints/etc and deals a 97 damage sneak attack to the dervish dancer bard, who barely survives. Next in the round, the bard Dispels the rogue's true seeing, shield, and stoneskin spells and retreats back. The monk uses his dimensional agility feat chain to deal something like ~275 damage, which has the rogue at low HP. The Eldritch knight with Fluid Form, Iron Body, and a helluva lot else advances and swings, and misses. The EK's familiar, a sprite, throws a tanglefoot bag at the quickling. Then the dragons cross their 70ft acid cones on us, I lose an argument with the GM over Fickle Winds protects us, and we take some damage, but not much. At this point, the quickling almost kills the monk, but the monk finishes off the quickling, and then abundant steps out. So it's just the Eldritch Knight, her familiar, and two great wyrm green dragons, who are conveniently quite nearby. They both throw a dose of cockatrice grit at one of the dragons, and the 2d4 dex damage is enough to turn it to stone instantly. Seeing this, the other dragon snatches up the corpse of it's quickling ally and planeshifts away.
Question: Is it cheese to defeat a dragon with 4000gp in consumables?
If we say "yes", what follows from this?
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Is it cheese to kill a dragon with Finger of Death or Disintegrate if it manages to fail its Fort save?
You didn't kill the dragon. Petrifaction is not death. You still defeated it and everything, but unless you broke the statue into bits, I'd expect it to come back.
But yes, I'd consider that cheese. And Rynjin, cockatrice grit allows no save for the first 1d4 Dex damage or the petrifaction. Just a ranged touch attack against abysmal touch AC, which is why I consider it cheese.
Well if Shivering Touch can be used my martials as well as casters in Pathfinder... isn't it at least more balanced?
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I think it isn't too much cheese to kill dragons with 4000gp invested in consumable wondrous items. Its no more cheese than the TWF Pistolero who could easily win initiative and unload his guns to flat-out slaughter them so much that the dragonhide has too many holes in it to make full plate. Nor is it more cheese to kill it via TWF rogue with Pressure Points and Brilliant Energy [insert weapon here] for dex damage and then Coup de Grace, effectively shredding it. BTW, it costs 20,000 gold, or 10,000 gold if crafted to get 10 doses of it, according to the SRD.
TWF Pistoleros are indeed cheese, ArmouredMonk13. Thank you for proving my point. And two brilliant energy weapons and pressure Points requires the investment of two +5 weapons- +1 plus +4 brilliant energy, at least, plus a rogue talent. The grit requires far less.
Cockatrice Grit costs 2k a dose. Two doses were used. That is 4k. A great wyrm green dragon was defeated with this method. That is a CR 20 encounter by itself, higher since there were 2 dragons and a quickling rogue. A CR 20+ encounter was overcome using less than half of one percent of ONE 20th-level PC's WBL, and a microscopic fraction of the wealth of a party reasonably equipped to deal with said CR 20+ threat.
Now, let's think. What is cheese? In this case, cheese is "unfairly overpowered." A method to trivialize a CR 20+ encounter with no save allowed and virtually no chance to miss a touch AC of 0 was used. The cost was... let's say the party was 4 16th-level PCs, a very conservative estimate. Their total WBL should be over 1.2 million. Therefore, the cost was less than one-third of one percent of their wealth. Is trivializing a CR 20+ encounter with less than one-third of one percent of a party's wealth unfairly overpowered? Hmmm, think, think...
Why, I do believe it is!
Have you ever considered that maybe the CR20 encounter that was trivialized was maybe underpowered? (I mean really no CR20 should be without a Greater Ring of Inner Fortitude, ya know?)
Two great wyrm dragons? Underpowered? I'm fairly sure that was a joke, but text makes it difficult to be certain.
Yes and no, everything has weaknesses and a dragon that doesn't wear a Greater Ring of Fortitude is weak to Dex damage probably isn't much of a CR20. Other high level monsters have bad saves, limited abilities, low AC, low or no SR, rely on a single powerful item, not immune to status conditions, etc. So Yes sometimes two great wyrm dragons can be underpowered, but not always.
It's just smart.
Dragons suck at dex.
If you want real cheese, imprisonment.
It costs none of your WBL, and instantly removes the thing near permanently.
But hay, giving marital since poisons is automatically bad, despite the huge numbers of OHKO moves casters have.
If you have even one caster, it's not cheeze.
Heck, plane-shift- poof, it's on a greater negative energy plane.
Imprisonment requires the caster to make a melee touch attack, which is generally suicide for a full caster. It also allows a Will save to negate and Spell Resistance, both of which dragons get plenty of. The dragons are also capable of plane shifting, as the OP demonstrated.
Anzyr- point taken.
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TWF Pistoleros are indeed cheese
Yes, but they are also fairly iconic, at least in the U.S. Look through the images of Gunslinger on Google, and you will find a good deal of them to use 2 pistols. Heck, just for the image I've been thinking of making a suboptimal TWFing gunslinger for PFS. They are iconic cheese, and a fair bit more common than Cockatrice Grit throwers. Its worse when the witch decides to just go Flesh to Stone on the monsters [Yeah yeah, SR and saves, but the DC will probably be ridiculous, and SR is all but trivial to overcome at high enough levels]. I don't think of the Grit of spell as cheese, because it isn't more of an exploit than it is designed to be. I think of cheese as being something that relies on an exploitative, loose interpretation of the rules like Blood Money Wishing for free or pre-errata trying to go Mysterious Stranger Pistolero for CHA+DEX to damage. YMMV I guess.
They were playing rocket tag, and the dragon lost? I can't feel bad about it, considering the OP also told us of lots of other rockets being fired back and forth.
I'm not smelling any cheese. Just cordite.
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Before we know it players will be chopping off the head of a Medusa to kill a Titan. That would be total cheese.
as a general rule of thumb I consider anything that does automatic stat damage with no save to be pretty cheesy and would not allow it in my games.
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Thought process...
"What the heck is Cockatrice Grit...?"
*Opens Pathfinder PRD*
"Hmm... Nothing there, must be something from a campaign setting book..."
*Opens d20pfsrd.com*
"Yup, something from a campaign setting book. Good thing I don't allow anything from those books without prior approval..."
/thread
Edit: Don't get me wrong, I love the campaign setting books for the flavor they bring to the world, but the content in them is not always mechanically sound.
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I think some people here may not know what "cheese" means. Cheese is some rules loophole you find and exploit, generally against the spirit of whatever game you're playing, but which no solid argument against can stand, due to the vagueness surrounding it.
The tide of battle turning because of a legal, game-balanced resource, being applied fairly, is NOT cheese.
So, no. This was not an example of cheese. This was somebody buying a resource that he had a good idea would work against a known foe, whose abilities were also known, and that resource working.
But... you probably knew that. I presume the point of the thread is really to boast about a plan that went well. It went well. Congratulations. Next time, just post the thread honestly, as a "guess-what-happened-this-weekend!" thread. There's nothing wrong with that.
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I think it isn't too much cheese to kill dragons with 4000gp invested in consumable wondrous items. Its no more cheese than the TWF Pistolero who could easily win initiative and unload his guns to flat-out slaughter them so much that the dragonhide has too many holes in it to make full plate. Nor is it more cheese to kill it via TWF rogue with Pressure Points and Brilliant Energy [insert weapon here] for dex damage and then Coup de Grace, effectively shredding it. BTW, it costs 20,000 gold, or 10,000 gold if crafted to get 10 doses of it, according to the SRD.
Brilliant Energy: A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item's weight. It always gives off light as a torch (20-foot radius). A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition.
Not very useful against a dragon.
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I think some people here may not know what "cheese" means. Cheese is some rules loophole you find and exploit, generally against the spirit of whatever game you're playing, but which no solid argument against can stand, due to the vagueness surrounding it.
The tide of battle turning because of a legal, game-balanced resource, being applied fairly, is NOT cheese.
So, no. This was not an example of cheese. This was somebody buying a resource that he had a good idea would work against a known foe, whose abilities were also known, and that resource working.
But... you probably knew that. I presume the point of the thread is really to boast about a plan that went well. It went well. Congratulations. Next time, just post the thread honestly, as a "guess-what-happened-this-weekend!" thread. There's nothing wrong with that.
The doubt is if something that do characteristic damage without a Save and Spell Resistance is balanced.
Change the cocatrice grit to something that do charisma damage and can bring you to 0 charisma and use it against a 20th level character that isn't a member of charisma based class.It is balanced?
Not much in my eyes.
It is a Silly unbalanced item. But if it is in your gameworld and your PC know about it it is stupid not to use, if you go dragon hunting.
So, if there is any mistake here, including the stuff is it a bad call ,not using it.
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No, but it begs the following question: can the item stack with itself?
no reason it couldn't , afaik there's no rules prevent damage from stacking
No, but it begs the following question: can the item stack with itself?
Damage always stacks.
No cheese here, IMHO, just an item that shouldn't exist. Everything done was within the rules with no weaseling or iffy interpretations.
No, but it begs the following question: can the item stack with itself?Damage always stacks.
No cheese here, IMHO, just an item that shouldn't exist. Everything done was within the rules with no weaseling or iffy interpretations.
Well...
1) it's not direct HP damage, but ability damage.2) the substance sticks to you... so 5 hits from that, the target makes 5 saves?
That's what I mean.
Well it's not a poison so there's no specific rules regarding it simply raising the DC
Again, ability damage I've never seen a rule that says it doesn't stack, and there are plenty of things that do ability damage so I think it would have shown up somewhere by now.
and yes, it would seem like five hits you'd take 5d4 dex damage, and make a save to try and not take another 5d4.... every round.... for 11 rounds O.o scary.
Well it's not a poison so there's no specific rules regarding it simply raising the DC
Again, ability damage I've never seen a rule that says it doesn't stack, and there are plenty of things that do ability damage so I think it would have shown up somewhere by now.
and yes, it would seem like five hits you'd take 5d4 dex damage, and make a save to try and not take another 5d4.... every round.... for 11 rounds O.o scary.
A Great Wyrm should not have much trouble making a DC 17 save, or 5 saves.
True, the save's aren't the problem, it's the opening barrage of dex damage that gets NO save that is the problem
lol.. i would think most gm's would want to treat it like a "lingering poison" effect.. where multiple doses stack up and ramp the DC.
Otherwise, I foresee players making a Cockatrice Grit Bomb ( throw like 5 doses in a minicask ) and fire away to trivialize any encounter.
Even buying the powder for 2k a pop.. so a 10k "bomb", big deal.. you just shoot da bomb at stuff that has more then 10k loot.
I can see it now.. "Jojo's Cockatrice Grit Emporium" lol.. Town have a pesky problem , come on down to Jojo's and pick up a bomb and get rid of that problem today!!
I foresee GMs just saying 'Cockatrice Grit does not exist'.
I foresee GMs just saying 'Cockatrice Grit does not exist'.
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There is no such thing as cheese across the board, only what your group does and does not like, so no it is not cheese. If you don't like it, then it means it does not suite your playstyle.
I foresee GMs just saying 'Cockatrice Grit does not exist'.I suppose I used too many words to convey this sentiment...
In that 'mechanically unsound' material is found in every single book, not just one classification, yes, you did use too many words.
It doesn't matter if it's in some random supplement or core; just because it's printed doesn't obligate its use. There's LOTS of core stuff that needs nerfed.
It shouldn't exist in whatever book it was in, and IMFAO, shouldn't be allowed in any game.
Dex damage, no save?
Limburger.
The item is a terrible item that shouldn't exist. I wouldn't allow it at my table. But as it is a published item in a Paizo source I can't rightly call it cheese. It is however not well balanced.
I foresee GMs just saying 'Cockatrice Grit does not exist'.I suppose I used too many words to convey this sentiment...In that 'mechanically unsound' material is found in every single book, not just one classification, yes, you did use too many words.
It doesn't matter if it's in some random supplement or core; just because it's printed doesn't obligate its use. There's LOTS of core stuff that needs nerfed.
It shouldn't exist in whatever book it was in, and IMFAO, shouldn't be allowed in any game.
I agree, there are a fair few things in Core that are broken if you let them go uncontested - snow cone wish machines, etc. Many of them are simple oversights or players stretching the rules. (Simulacrum, for example says "It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)"
Some of the ones that exist in the core rulebooks line, I have house ruled. Others I have removed - crane style prior to it's recent "rebalance", for example. And while there are problems in the core rulebook line, they are both less frequent and more likely to receive an FAQ or errata if they are problematic than those present in the Golarion campaign settings books.
Campaign settings books are great for fleshing out the world. However, I fear that they don't get much (if any) play testing or mechanical scrutiny and therefore only allow materials from those books on a case by case basis in order to avoid the exact problem that this thread has brought up. (Also, I don't have the time to go through each new campaign setting book that comes up and make sure I'm at least marginally familiar with the material in it...)
Honestly, this just is never going to be issue unless you forget to buy a Greater Ring of Inner Fortitude... and why would you do that?
Edit: @ MechE - The special abilities of a half-HD are Efreeti include Wish 3/day. Same as for a level 22 Advanced Efreeti with Class levels. Just apply the rules in the bestiary.
Edit: @ MechE - The special abilities of a half-HD are Efreeti include Wish 3/day. Same as for a level 22 Advanced Efreeti with Class levels. Just apply the rules in the bestiary.
If you fail to see how the phrase "the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD" would allow a DM to say "Sorry, your 5 HD Efreeti Simulacrum will not have the ability to grant wishes", then I think you and I have very different ideas of the way a GM should be interpreting the rules.
Also, I'd be sure that the player knew of this interpretation up front - It's the reason there are currently no snow cone wish machines in the world.
I don't think much of anything in PF gets a lot of playtesting or mechanical scrutiny.
I don't think much of anything in PF gets a lot of playtesting or mechanical scrutiny.
It depends on your definition of "a lot"... I'm not trying to play fan boy over here as the designers have earned their fair share of both praise and dissatisfaction from me at times. However, the Core Rulebook line had a lot of the material ported over from 3.5e has had a lot more time at tables than the newer stuff. The Advanced Class Guide went through two iterations of play testing. Crane Wing had a lot of time at the tables and was then "addressed" (good, bad, or indifferent, it was reevaluated).
The Golarion campaign settings books are usually only printed one time, so they never get errata, and collectively, they have received 5 total FAQ responses.
** spoiler omitted **
Off topic stuff below:
** spoiler omitted **
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 11th
Slot none; Price 2,000 gp; Weight —DESCRIPTION
This magical grit is used by flinging a dose at a creature within 15 feet by as a ranged touch attack. If the grit hits, the target takes 1d4 points of Dexterity damage and is slowed (as the spell) for 1 round as its body starts slowly turning to stone. Each round that follows, the victim can attempt a DC 17 Fortitude save at the start of its turn as a free action to end the effect; otherwise, it takes an additional 1d4 points of Dexterity damage and is slowed for 1 more round. This effect can last for a maximum of 11 rounds. If this Dexterity damage ever meets or exceeds the victim’s actual Dexterity score, the creature becomes petrified permanently, as if by flesh to stone. A dose of cockatrice grit is consumed when it is used, and doesn’t activate until it has been thrown—the grit can be handled safely.CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Wondrous Item, calcific touch or flesh to stone; Cost 1,000 gp
So if I'm understanding the question right, the eldritch knight spent two rounds hurling this stuff and turned the dragon to stone?
Actually, yes. I do think this item is cheesy because it doesn't allow a Fortitude save against the initial damage. Poisons, which this item is constantly being compared to in this thread, allow a Fortitude save to negate the initial effect. I agree with Zhayne, though. The player wasn't being cheesy. This item is solidly written and there were no liberties taken with its effect. That effect just happens to be far too good to exist.
If the dragon actually had to fail some Fortitude saves in order to suffer this damage and ultimately end up petrified, then no. I wouldn't think it was cheesy. There are poisons that cost 1,000+ gp per dose to create and comparisons aside, having a big budget does not warrant an item (even a consumable) from having a crazy-powerful effect such as this.
Its NACHO CHEESE!!!!