Goblin Squad Member
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I just had a thought, the one thing that makes PvE a near intolerable grind is that there is practically no risk of loss associated with it.
What if the system treated death by PvE in very similar fashion to death in PvP. That is, you suffer an automatic 25% loss of gear and inventory, and that could include threaded items.
* Threaded item loss is only suggested for PvE content, but if a significant group said they would want that for PvP I would support it as well.
This I believe would add significant danger to PvE, and be a boom for crafters and merchants because even more items would be leaving the system, increasing demand.
Of course GW would have to make our characters a bit more "heroic" in relation to PvE mobs, but that only supports the idea that we are also the risk takers in the world.
If a player dies in Pve as far as I can see they are in the same situation as if they die in pvp.
25% gear loss excluding threaded items and the rest is on their corpses and lootable by the first people to get there. Where did you get the impression that Pve death would be different
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't believe either of those is limited to either PvP or PvE. I believe they both apply every time you die.When you die, approximately 25% of unthreaded items on your body are immediately destroyed...
... every time you die, your threaded items lose a point of durability.
The 25% destroyed maybe true, but NPC Mobs don't loot your corpse. So maybe the 25% for PVE death could be increased to 35 - 40%?
The 25% destroyed maybe true, but NPC Mobs don't loot your corpse. So maybe the 25% for PVE death could be increased to 35 - 40%?I don't believe either of those is limited to either PvP or PvE. I believe they both apply every time you die.When you die, approximately 25% of unthreaded items on your body are immediately destroyed...
... every time you die, your threaded items lose a point of durability.
Mobs may not loot the corpse but the corpse only lasts 5 minutes I believe and the player still has to get back.
This has too many flaws in any case to be workable.
You are fighting a player he gets attacked by a mob he strays too close to. PVE death or PVP?
Being attacked by a player and want to ensure he gets no loot just run into the nearest group of mobs and die. You lose a bit extra but its worth it to ensure that player gets nothing,
This is an idea that is not needed and just adds potential exploits
I agree, there doesn't need to be a difference between PvE and PvP death. Your corpse should still be lootable if you die in PvE, but maybe just give anyone stealing from your body a criminal flag for some length of time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@notmyrealname, that sound like an excellent idea for crowdforging later. Goblins, bandits, and other intelligent NPC enemies using your gear against you sounds really fun. :)
Developing this system would also likely give us the necessary systems in-game to equip escalations and thus make them tougher (because they would already have everything they need to equip the escalations with varying equipment).
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would be funny if the goblins could loot your gear and equip it. When you came back the goblin would be wearing your helmet. In EQ NPC's could pick up items and equip them so it might be possible.
I agree, this could lead to side missions, such as trying to track down the Goblins that killed you, in order to retrieve your stolen gear.
That would be so much more interesting than just returning to your corpse and picking up the gear left behind. Why would the Goblins (or any other sentient humanoid0 leave loot behind?
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Just out of curiosity, in what mad world could loosing more gear when you die make PvE grinding less intolerable?It would add more risk and as I suggested above, could lead to some interesting side missions.
So long as the added risk is balanced with added rewards, so that there's a reason to go out and fight things that have a detectable chance of wiping the party.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing that should make PvE "fresher" in PFO is the fact that GW are changing much of the PvE formula from your standard themepark. PvE content is not some required thing, so they don't need to cater to the lowest common denominator and make the "so easy you could beat them while asleep levelling mobs" which you grind for quests typically. Escalations are here to shake up spawns and relative difficulty in an area, so you can never be sure of what type of enemies you'll find in the next hex.
I'm hopeful the paradigm is going to shift from "PvE ranges from solo to small group content, with 30-odd people being a usual max" to "PvP ranges from small group to large army, with a max of several hundred needed to take on some of the PvE content". Make PvE look totally different in PFO; make it look like we're fighting a war against the PvE enemies, because that's exactly what should be happening with escalations.
Sorry for not sticking to the OP's topic, Bludd, just seemed like a good thread to throw my ideas for improving PvE into.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just out of curiosity, in what mad world could loosing more gear when you die make PvE grinding less intolerable?It would be awesome for battle field scavengers! Wait and watch a group doing PVE until a couple of members are down and then whack them! Yay!
This can happen already,
We see five members of a party fighting orcs. We watch the fight go for a while. The party loses three members. We come in and help the remaining two, kill the orcs. We then loot the bodies of their friends, and get criminal (thief) flagged. Battlefield scavengers, that is already in the design as well. You have 5 minutes to loot the bodies of the fallen.
What will the two survivors do? Attack? Or be thankful, we didn't let the orcs kill them?
If we were role playing Chaotic Evil, we could even SAD the survivors and hope they decline. Then we loot them, as well.
See how that works? All of it roleplayed CE and not one bit of it would cost reputation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry for not sticking to the OP's topic, Bludd, just seemed like a good thread to throw my ideas for improving PvE into.
It is appreciated Shane, this thread is about making PVE more risky and interesting. Whether that be Escalations or random encounters with a solo NPC Mob makes no difference.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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More risky and interesting than what, specifically? It's trivial to make improvements on that axis when comparing to Theme Park games, so let's take Darkfall as the basis for comparison.
How would you make PvE content more interesting by adding risk to Darkfall's model?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Keeping pve from being an intolerable grind by raising the stakes I think is better on the other side of the equation. Let enemies get reinforcements in the middle of a fight. Let them spring ambushes on you. Heck make player race NPCs that SAD you.
Point of clarification: I thought for sure if someone dies from a mix of NPC and player attacks the player was still eligible to loot the corpse. Is that so, and to avoid the one-tap-loot what percentage of damage compared to NPCs do player looting rights activate?
Keeping pve from being an intolerable grind by raising the stakes I think is better on the other side of the equation. Let enemies get reinforcements in the middle of a fight. Let them spring ambushes on you. Heck make player race NPCs that SAD you.
Point of clarification: I thought for sure if someone dies from a mix of NPC and player attacks the player was still eligible to loot the corpse. Is that so, and to avoid the one-tap-loot what percentage of damage compared to NPCs do player looting rights activate?
A player may always loot the corpse of another player regardless of how he died. I believe if you were not the killer you get flagged as a criminal though
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just out of curiosity, in what mad world could loosing more gear when you die make PvE grinding less intolerable?It would be awesome for battle field scavengers! Wait and watch a group doing PVE until a couple of members are down and then whack them! Yay!This can happen already,
We see five members of a party fighting orcs. We watch the fight go for a while. The party loses three members. We come in and help the remaining two, kill the orcs. We then loot the bodies of their friends, and get criminal (thief) flagged. Battlefield scavengers, that is already in the design as well. You have 5 minutes to loot the bodies of the fallen.
What will the two survivors do? Attack? Or be thankful, we didn't let the orcs kill them?
If we were role playing Chaotic Evil, we could even SAD the survivors and hope they decline. Then we loot them, as well.
See how that works? All of it roleplayed CE and not one bit of it would cost reputation.
It can already happen, but let's not make it so attractive because of increased lootables, that it becomes the most common way to seek PVP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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More risky and interesting than what, specifically? It's trivial to make improvements on that axis when comparing to Theme Park games, so let's take Darkfall as the basis for comparison.
How would you make PvE content more interesting by adding risk to Darkfall's model?
That's a solid point, DB.
Darkfall PvE is risky (outside of safe zones) because there's no such thing as a pure PvE encounter in an open world sandbox. PFO PvE will be risky for the same reason.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PVE is a boring grind because you know what will happen before you engage . You know the mobs hitpoints and its level and its class , the info is all given to you but with less info on the mobs it is different gameplay. What if the mobs have generic names instead of names that tell you their class and no hitpoint number and no con system to tell you the level of the mob. Now its not going to be boring because the risk of death increases.
Maybe there are enough people who are tired of the easy mode PVE gameplay to do it differently.
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Goblin Squad Member
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More risky and interesting than what, specifically? It's trivial to make improvements on that axis when comparing to Theme Park games, so let's take Darkfall as the basis for comparison.
How would you make PvE content more interesting by adding risk to Darkfall's model?
That's a solid point, DB.
Darkfall PvE is risky (outside of safe zones) because there's no such thing as a pure PvE encounter in an open world sandbox. PFO PvE will be risky for the same reason.
No it won't, PvP in PFO is gated for the most part. If you don't have influence, can't SAD, your settlement is not at war, you're not in a faction and level 4 with it, have a bounty or assassination contract, hold a death curse or you don't want to be CE and Low Rep and Suck...... You can't PvP in the open world of PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf, We all know people will anyway regardless of cost. Level 4 will take time but sooner or later there will be someone who can attack you on that basis alone. The rest I will not go into its been said too many times.
It will already be hard to do PvE for fear of being attacked by players looking for easy prey when you are nearly dead, flush with victory, and still in combat rounds as they attack.
People who engage only in PvE will find a comfort zone that allows them to gain some reward for minimized risk no mater how you change the system around.
Increasing risk will just make them more apprehensive to explore and to move up to the next tier of difficultly make it more of a grind because they don't want to risk losing 30-45% of what they have managed to earn.
The system should reward risk takers but lets not make an effort to make everybody overly skidish about engaging an NPC they have not seen before.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No it won't, PvP in PFO is gated for the most part. If you don't have influence, can't SAD, your settlement is not at war, you're not in a faction and level 4 with it, have a bounty or assassination contract, hold a death curse or you don't want to be CE and Low Rep and Suck...... You can't PvP in the open world of PFO.
Now who's being disingenuous? You know that this is false. You absolutely can PvP. You just can't go on murder sprees without worrying about the consequences.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No it won't, PvP in PFO is gated for the most part. If you don't have influence, can't SAD, your settlement is not at war, you're not in a faction and level 4 with it, have a bounty or assassination contract, hold a death curse or you don't want to be CE and Low Rep and Suck...... You can't PvP in the open world of PFO.Now who's being disingenuous? You know that this is false. You absolutely can PvP. You just can't go on murder sprees without worrying about the consequences.
Not like you could in Darkfall's open world, and that was the comparison being made by Urman.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The risk to the PvP attacker may be different in PFO compared to Darkfall UW, but the risk to the PvE grinder (being attacked by another player while grinding against mobs) is the same.
GW's plan to open space in the game based on population/short-range anticipated population will probably also mean the player population density is much higher than Darkfall UW (which might not be saying much). The risk to the PvE grinder will likely be higher for that reason alone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A player may always loot the corpse of another player regardless of how he died. I believe if you were not the killer you get flagged as a criminal though
That was my context, without getting flagged criminal.
Now I'm just excited and hopeful about the possibility of being SADed by NPCs. I hope that gets in. A corollary for explorers is finding the NPC hideout after hearing reports of NPC SADs in an area. And then it's a big combat excursion to go remove it. Bringing people together.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A player may always loot the corpse of another player regardless of how he died. I believe if you were not the killer you get flagged as a criminal thoughThat was my context, without getting flagged criminal.
Now I'm just excited and hopeful about the possibility of being SADed by NPCs. I hope that gets in. A corollary for explorers is finding the NPC hideout after hearing reports of NPC SADs in an area. And then it's a big combat excursion to go remove it. Bringing people together.
And finding all that nice loot
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Not like you could in Darkfall's open world, and that was the comparison being made by Urman.No it won't, PvP in PFO is gated for the most part. If you don't have influence, can't SAD, your settlement is not at war, you're not in a faction and level 4 with it, have a bounty or assassination contract, hold a death curse or you don't want to be CE and Low Rep and Suck...... You can't PvP in the open world of PFO.Now who's being disingenuous? You know that this is false. You absolutely can PvP. You just can't go on murder sprees without worrying about the consequences.
This topic is about PvE, not PvP. You still risk losing all of your unthreaded equipment, even if you can return to your corpse before it decays; many players and characters will have fewer qualms about taking stuff off of a corpse than about creating a corpse to take the stuff off of.
In addition unlike Eve where if you die in pve you are still in system in your pod as NPC's do not pod you in PfO you will be back at your bind point which may be quite some distance from your corpse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Brilliant idea Proxima. :)
Edit: @Bringslite, I'm assuming that NPC SAD's are not high on the priority list, but it would be a cool alternative to "NPC in wilderness = trying to kill you".
Yeah. I don't mind the concept. Anything to make NPCs more interesting. I don't mean to be a Negative Ned. :)
Would these NPCs apply the SAD immunity timer if you accept their demand?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Death either in pvp or pve needs to be treated the same. i dont agree that mobs should loot your corpse, however until you go to get your corpse your corpse should be open to be looted by other players. So someone can see your corpse and take all your non threaded gear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Isn't it a good idea to move NPC AI more towards that of players? Namely, have them loot corpses (potentially with a small time window after death) and equip any gear they can?
Other players can still retrieve the gear, they just have to find and defeat the NPCs in question first. Sure, each time gear quality/quantity will be reduced, but this isn't a bad thing for crafters etc.
Would be neat to see a dragon NPC with a huge hoard of player gear :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mobs that could use the gear would then be better equipped, more dangerous, encouraging escalation of the gear players feel they need. The economy increases because the gear recovered from mobs is obsolete, damaged, or broken. I guess it would not be all that desirable for me to recover what I lost except in principle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The idea of losing any threaded gear makes the point of threading your gear in the first place rather pointless.
In Shadowbane you left all your carried inventory on your grave, regardless of how you died, which could then be looted by anyone. I don't see any problem with just leaving it like that.
I agree that dying should cause a setback of some kind, maybe a penalty in the rate of skill/xp gain that you accumulate over time causing you to get it slower than normal for a set period. That would hamper character progression in a way that matters to everyone.
Item loss would cause more of a penalty to the in-game poor who have trouble replacing their lost gear and would more than likely drive them to quit playing, especially if they lost a hard-won piece of gear they had threaded.
Make the penalties matter, but also try to retain player numbers by making it fair to everyone, regardless of wealth or level.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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How would giving monsters the gear from corpses that decayed (not looted by players, nor the 25% loss from death) influence the overall economy?
This would be a gear faucet (more precisely, the reduction of a gear sink) as compared with the other option- that items on corpses that decay are removed from the game.
I think the dynamic would be most interesting if said items moved to the highest-ranking creature in the escalation for which they would be an upgrade. You wouldn't find the T3 vorpal longsword on the orc raider, but you might find it in the hands of the orcish warboss.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree that dying should cause a setback of some kind, maybe a penalty in the rate of skill/xp gain that you accumulate over time causing you to get it slower than normal for a set period. That would hamper character progression in a way that matters to everyone.
In that case there would be ABJECT TERROR at the idea of PvP. You're losing training time that you paid for. Griefers are practically robbing you in real life with that idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Decius, this would of course assume that the NPC's drop the stolen gear they use after they are slain. If they didn't, then it would have no effect on the economy and only serve to make the mobs stronger.
I wasn't concise enough in my statement. I was actually thinking the NPC's would also suffer a 25% gear loss when killed by PCs, thus the total gear loss would be 43%.
There is also the distribution impact. The original PC is not always going to be the one getting the gear back. It might be allies, allowing them to get the gear back via social ties, or it might be a neutral party or even an enemy. While the state of the total economy remains unchanged (aside from the 43% gear loss), crafters would have a much higher chance of being engaged to restore the gear for the original PC that suffered the loss.
Likewise, if NPCs equip some gear (not all NPCs should be able to equip all gear looted) they in turn become stronger and may kill more PCs than normal and continue or grow any involved escalation cycles. More dead PCs means even more of a gear sink and more business for crafters, harvesters and merchants.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Decius, this would of course assume that the NPC's drop the stolen gear they use after they are slain. If they didn't, then it would have no effect on the economy and only serve to make the mobs stronger.
And primarily, just the mobs that were successful in killing a player character. Then when someone kills that Orc, sees the loot that drops will know that they just killed a "known" NPC mob.
It becomes a story to tell. One that could bring original victim and unknown avenger together. "Hey, I heard a story that you killed an Orc chief wielding a Sword with CE and z key word." Now the two can decide where that conversation goes.
What I like most about the idea is that mobs are just more than random mobs. Some can be known for being PC killers.
Wouldn't that be a feature for a future patch! Mobs have a floatie over their heads showing how many PC kills they have.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In UO, it was possible to gain a Lord/Lady title based on how much karma/fame you got when you killed enough players. You would need a lot (weeks to months of playing) to get this, but you would eventually. For the most part, you'd only notice this on players, but NPCs actually had karma/fame as well, so if an NPC killed enough players, it would eventually get a Lord/Lady title on its name. The idea is that if you killed a mob that a lot of players had died against, you'd pick up extra karma/fame for it yourself.
Now, extending this idea over to NPCs picking up player loot, I can easily a goblin or a lich or something with a full set of magic armor, cloak of resistance +5, holy avenger, etc. that nobody wants to go near. Especially the newbies.