In order....
Correct.
Correct.
Yes.
Correct.
Yes.
Nope.
Yes.
That's a whole bunch of different things you're combining there, Crimson68.
A 5ft step is not an action. That said, you are not allowed to make a 5ft step in any round that you have actually moved (as in changed squares).
If you have BAB +1 or higher, you are permitted to draw a weapon DURING a move. If your BAB is +0, you cannot, so you have to draw a weapon AS a move.
Examples:
1} A 1st-level fighter isn't near his target. He uses a move action to move 30ft to be beside his target. During that move, he draws his weapon (BAB +1). Having arrived, he makes an attack as a standard action. He cannot make a 5ft during this round because he moved 30ft.
2} A 1st-level cleric isn't near his target. He uses a move action to move 30ft to be beside his target. He cannot draw his weapon during that move (BAB +0). Once he arrives, he uses a move-equivalent action to draw his weapon. He is now done his turn, and also cannot make a 5ft during this round because he moved 30ft.
3} A fighter is beside his target. He uses a move-equivalent action to draw his weapon then makes a single attack as a standard action. He can then make a 5ft-step if that is tactically beneficial. He did not actually MOVE despite using a move-equivalent action so is allowed that 5ft-step.
4} A fighter with Quickdraw is beside his target. He uses the feat to draw his weapon as a free action then can make a full-attack. During his multiple attacks he drops his target and sees another 5ft away. He can make his 5ft-step to get beside the second target and continue his full-attack routine.
So, bottom line is these are all different things working together. Whirlwind Attack is just a full-attack so yes, you can 5ft in the middle of it. You can swap the order of your actions as you wish. Normally you can't interrupt an action (you can't make your standard action attack in the middle of your 30ft move unless you have the Spring Attack feat for instance) but the 5ft step is specifically allowed to happen during a full-attack routine.
Hope this helps.
4} A fighter with Quickdraw is beside his target. He uses the feat to draw his weapon as a free action then can make a full-attack. During his multiple attacks he drops his target and sees another 5ft away. He can make his 5ft-step to get beside the second target and continue his full-attack routine.
So, bottom line is these are all different things working together. Whirlwind Attack is just a full-attack so yes, you can 5ft in the middle of it. You can swap the order of your actions as you wish. Normally you can't interrupt an action (you can't make your standard action attack in the middle of your 30ft move unless you have the Spring Attack feat for instance) but the 5ft step is specifically allowed to happen during...
Sorry im not sure about this. As a full-round action, i think you cant use your free 5' movement in between attacks. I think you can use it before or after the action, but not while performing that action. I dont have access to my books right now but please check it.
Sorry im not sure about this. As a full-round action, i think you cant use your free 5' movement in between attacks. I think you can use it before or after the action, but not while performing that action. I dont have access to my books right now but please check it.4} A fighter with Quickdraw is beside his target. He uses the feat to draw his weapon as a free action then can make a full-attack. During his multiple attacks he drops his target and sees another 5ft away. He can make his 5ft-step to get beside the second target and continue his full-attack routine.
So, bottom line is these are all different things working together. Whirlwind Attack is just a full-attack so yes, you can 5ft in the middle of it. You can swap the order of your actions as you wish. Normally you can't interrupt an action (you can't make your standard action attack in the middle of your 30ft move unless you have the Spring Attack feat for instance) but the 5ft step is specifically allowed to happen during...
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
Emphasis mine.
Sorry im not sure about this. As a full-round action, i think you cant use your free 5' movement in between attacks. I think you can use it before or after the action, but not while performing that action. I dont have access to my books right now but please check it.4} A fighter with Quickdraw is beside his target. He uses the feat to draw his weapon as a free action then can make a full-attack. During his multiple attacks he drops his target and sees another 5ft away. He can make his 5ft-step to get beside the second target and continue his full-attack routine.
So, bottom line is these are all different things working together. Whirlwind Attack is just a full-attack so yes, you can 5ft in the middle of it. You can swap the order of your actions as you wish. Normally you can't interrupt an action (you can't make your standard action attack in the middle of your 30ft move unless you have the Spring Attack feat for instance) but the 5ft step is specifically allowed to happen during...
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.Emphasis mine.
Checked then. Thanks.
ps. Ive been playing this bad for about 10 years... Do you know if this is a PF change of the rules or if its still legal in 3.x ??
The 3.5 SRD uses exactly the same wording as Pathfinder. Not sure about 3.0.
The 3.5 SRD uses exactly the same wording as Pathfinder. Not sure about 3.0.
ok, my group has been playing with the only before/after 5' step for some years and nobody has ever notice during is legal.
thank you very much!
Does this mean that with Cleave, you can attack, hit, 5' step, then attack another enemy, assuming the second enemy is adjacent to the first? It seems like it circumvents the "within reach" part of Cleave, since you have to move to make the second enemy within reach. Or what if the enemy was within reach but you wanted to better position yourself between the first and second attacks?
I've been allowing the paladin in my group to take his 5' step between the two Cleave attacks, and it seems to work based on the rules for 5' step.
Does this mean that with Cleave, you can attack, hit, 5' step, then attack another enemy, assuming the second enemy is adjacent to the first? It seems like it circumvents the "within reach" part of Cleave, since you have to move to make the second enemy within reach. Or what if the enemy was within reach but you wanted to better position yourself between the first and second attacks?
I've been allowing the paladin in my group to take his 5' step between the two Cleave attacks, and it seems to work based on the rules for 5' step.
No. Even though it works based on the 5' step rules it doesn't based on the Cleave restrictions.
Be careful. There are five foot steps and five foot moves (example: the swashbuckler playtest Dodging Panache). The former does not provoke, the latter does.
Also, you can only draw out a weapon during a NORMAL move if you have base attack bonus +1 or higher. I think you are also permitted to do it during a charge as well.
Also, you can only draw out a weapon during a NORMAL move if you have base attack bonus +1 or higher. I think you are also permitted to do it during a charge as well.Yes you can do it as part of a charge for reference for anyone following the thread.
But only if you are moving less than your normal movement. A normal charge allows up to twice your movement rate.
Also if some one is using whirlwind attack can they during any part of the attack five foot step?
Personally I feel that the FAQ for cleave should apply to Whirlwind as well.
Also if some one is using whirlwind attack can they during any part of the attack five foot step?Personally I feel that the FAQ for cleave should apply to Whirlwind as well.
Based on the wording of the two feats, I'm surprised it doesn't. Considering that whirlwind has a condition that must be met when it is activated similar to Cleave (enemies within reach), I would assume you can't based on the FAQ. Has whirlwind attack been FAQ'd to clarify also?
EDIT: It has not been.
Why should it?
Cleave is a godawful level 1 entry-level feat.
Whirlwind Attack is a super-pricy (in pre-requisites) mid-level feat that's supposed to replace your full attack.
It already sucks bad enough, between the massive amount of horrible pre-requisites, making you give up bonus attacks (like from haste), and forcing you to attack each foe no more than once when the entire game is built upon Critical Existence Failure and strongly encourages you to focus fire the hell out of one enemy at a time till they're dead (because until then, any turns you spent wailing on the foe have done jack **** to reduce its ability to harm you).
Why on earth should it be made even worse?
What you're missing is that in order to obtain it, you had to set all of your other feats on fire (Dodge: decent, far from my wish list; Mobility: sucks; Spring Attack: seldom worth it; Expertise: sucks) and yet STILL...it's not worth using over a normal full attack most of the time.
Some of the time, yes. And even then, if the enemies were so weak you could kill them in one hit...were they actually that much of a threat, anyway?
I expect a bit more from a five feat chain.
Why should it?
Cleave is a godawful level 1 entry-level feat.
Whirlwind Attack is a super-pricy (in pre-requisites) mid-level feat that's supposed to replace your full attack.
It already sucks bad enough, between the massive amount of horrible pre-requisites, making you give up bonus attacks (like from haste), and forcing you to attack each foe no more than once when the entire game is built upon Critical Existence Failure and strongly encourages you to focus fire the hell out of one enemy at a time till they're dead (because until then, any turns you spent wailing on the foe have done jack **** to reduce its ability to harm you).
Why on earth should it be made even worse?
Because the ruling shouldn't be made based on how "godawful" the feat is or if it "sucks bad enough," it should be based on the mechanics of the game. The explanation as to why you can't Cleave, 5' step, take your second cleave attack seems to me that it would apply just the same to Whirlwind attack. That is, each enemy must be within reach when you begin your attack. If you have to 5' step to reach the enemy with whirlwind attack, then that enemy is not an eligible target.
Edit: fixed some typos
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It can be awesome. You can use any of the attacks from Whirlwind Attack to Trip/Disarm, and if you are a Dirty Fighter, Dirty Trick. If you have Lunge, a reach weapon, or a whip, you can make attacks/maneuvers against a HUGE number of opponents. It's a feat that should never be used for damage, but for control.
Dodge makes you harder to hit, not just for AC, but against touch attacks as well. A solid feat.
Mobility is situational, but remains useful, allowing you to squeeze through hairy sections of the battlefield without fear.
Spring Attack is absolutely amazing in narrow spaces, such as a 5-foot corridor. Spring past your allies, hit the bad guy in front, then spring back behind your allies. Since you never "technically" stop moving, you can do this even if the only free space in front of the enemy is occupied by an ally. (This has also been confirmed by developers.)
Whirlwind is great for damage at low levels, but at later levels really shines with combat maneuvers such as disarm and trip. Tripping everyone in the room with your reach weapon and highest base attack bonus is glorious, and (with Greater Trip) allows your allies lots and lots of attacks of opportunities.
I would not rely on Whirlwind Attack for raw damage at higher levels.
Because the ruling shouldn't be made based on how "godawful" the feat is or if it "sucks bad enough," it should be based on the mechanics of the game.Why should it?
Cleave is a godawful level 1 entry-level feat.
Whirlwind Attack is a super-pricy (in pre-requisites) mid-level feat that's supposed to replace your full attack.
It already sucks bad enough, between the massive amount of horrible pre-requisites, making you give up bonus attacks (like from haste), and forcing you to attack each foe no more than once when the entire game is built upon Critical Existence Failure and strongly encourages you to focus fire the hell out of one enemy at a time till they're dead (because until then, any turns you spent wailing on the foe have done jack **** to reduce its ability to harm you).
Why on earth should it be made even worse?
Agreed. And WWA is a full attack. Which you can explicitly take a 5 ft step in the middle of.
If anything, it's Cleave that is poorly adjudicated, against how the rules normally work. I guess it's done so because cleave's attacks are supposed to be part of the same singular "swing" of the weapon or something.