Stop right there! Have you ever thought about..?


So, the Bewildering Koan feat... I want to make a character around it.

Here's the feat, if you don't know it:

So, the bluff rank, of course, is easy, but the Ki Pool is a bit harder to manage. To my knowledge, there's the monk (duh), ninja, and that tengu oracle archetype (I think).

Now, I really don't want to build or ever play a ninja. Rogue an ninja are just too weak for me to enjoy (not what this thread is about though, so shhh). I'm willing to play a monk, but is it even possible to play a monk well now that crane wing has been errata'd into crane crash?

So, I'm looking at a human (or maybe scion of humanity aasimar, if for some reason that's optimal) for racial heritage gnome and tengu. Gnome for the pre req, and tengu for the oracle archetype (once again, if a monk would be better, then by all means give monk advice).

The idea is a guy who uses violence only when needed. He'd probably be the party face too. Just, in general, a nice guy who fights because he needs to to complete [insert campaign conflict here].

So, how can this be done?


Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Well, you're probably looking at a monk with a high Charisma and mayeb you choose to deal nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage?

Dark Archive

.... The ninja class is the exact opposite of weak. Those things are mean.

How about a 2 level dip into Ninja and then Buffer/Debuffer Bard the rest of the way?

chaoseffect wrote:
How about a 2 level dip into Ninja and then Buffer/Debuffer Bard the rest of the way?

Would my Ki pool be high enough, do you think?

@Kieviel- my problem with that is that monks are already so MAD...

Even with only a 2 level dip you're looking at 1+Cha mod uses per day, which isn't that bad if you're pumping Charisma for Bard stuff.

Perhaps a Drunken Master Monk since they can get temp Ki from drinking alcohol? It would be a 3 level dip though.

Third Mind wrote:
Perhaps a Drunken Master Monk since they can get temp Ki from drinking alcohol? It would be a 3 level dip though.

That's... actually a really nice idea.

If that's a way you want to go and you want, there's the Accelerated Drinker that makes drinking an alcoholic beverage a move action instead of the normal standard action (as long as it's in your hand). With this, you could use a move action to get your temp ki, swift action to koan, and still have a standard left over. However, you'd have to get DM ok with with as it says potion specifically and not just any old beverage. Don't see why you couldn't pour some ale into potion vials though.

Also, if interested and somehow you have the massive CON to do it there's the Fast Drinker feat which makes drinking alcohol for the temp ki a swift action.

You know, I'm really liking the drunkard idea. Everyone sees him as the local drunk fool, but he actually is quite wise and profound.

I think I'll be doing that.

Any other advice? Straight monk or a monk dip? What archetypes, if any, stack with Drunken Master.

This link: Here ...shows what archetypes can be mixed with what.

As far as straight monk or dip, it's common around the threads that monk tends to be a weak full class generally speaking. If they are to be believed, then I'd probably only dip for monk for about 4 levels (enough for you to get the full ki pool and the drunken ki).

Then you can move into things that perhaps make you insane at bluff checks since that's what the Bewildering Koan focuses on and you want to hit that as much as you can when you choose to use it. For that, Bards are generally said to be powerful in terms of face skills among other skills, but I'd personally probably suggest moving into the Inquisitor with the Conversion Inquisition. This would allow you to keep use of your Wisdom score, making it so you don't have to spread yourself ultra thin stat wise. Well... at least more than needed. They're also considered to be really solid options in terms of fighting.

If, however, you're more focused on a support character, you could go the scarred witch doctor (witch archetype) which allows you to use your Con for your spell stat. The very same stat that needs to be high in order to use that Fast Drinker feat of yours. Still would need to work towards making your Bluff awesome, but you'd have spells and hexes along with the possibility to use your fists in a fight (weak as the option may be due to possible stat allocation).

I haven't really played a bard, so perhaps they're skilled enough in battle that they'd be the best choice. Others would probably be more knowledgeable than I am when it comes to bards and characters based on Bluff though.

Hmmm, I'll look at all those options. Are there any ways to get bluff based off of WIS? I know there are traits that do crazy stuff like that. I think.

There is this Document ... another user made that shows how each stat can be switched for other skills. Looking at it myself, it seems the inquisitor with the conversion inquisition is the only real way. Then again, it's entirely possible the user could have missed something.

I made a build for a Ninja/bard with bewildering Koan once but never got to play it.
It can be found in this thread: Enigmatic Sage

Sovereign Court

I had a gnome monk who I almost got to play in a high level game. He was a ki mystic, sensei, and monk of the lotus archetypes, and took bewildering koan, stunning fist, punishing kick, bodyguard, and improved + greater feint (I think I had a few lore warden-fighter levels in there for extra feats + knowledge class skills).

He had a strength of 10 and was small, so basically couldn't do damage, but he could hit someone and make them either make two fort saves or one will save to be stunned and/or knocked prone, or unable to attack or cast spells for multiple rounds. If full attacking, he could do both to one target, or split them up. Then as a move action he could either activate a full level bardic music like equivalent or feint someone to deny dex for a round (party rogue loved me!), and then as a swift action bewildering koan someone.

In between rounds, he could bodyguard to give allies +3 to AC (helpful trait), or give allies rerolls as an immediate with his ki mystic ability.

Basically, he was the party buffer and debuffer, all while having no spellcasting ability or capability of actually dealing significant damage! As I said, I never actually got to play the guy, but I want to at some point.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

it sounds like you're headed in a direction that wouldn't require it anyways, but just a friendly reminder:

feats can only be taken once unless they specifically state otherwise. racial heritage does not have that "special: this feat may be taken more than once..." line, so you can't use it to get access to more than one extra race's goodies.

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