Anyway, Crane Style was near a "must have" for a lot of characters, at the point that 1 level of Master of Many Styles seems to be more useful than trying to go level 20 of the original class, and not only in PF.
While we discussed about the upcoming Swashbuckler in Advanced Class Guide during the beta, the designers explained how much they want to avoid situations like that.
So it doesn't shock me they errated Crane Style.
Is it a good revision ? Maybe, maybe not. IMO it reduces the difference of power level between the styles, while the Crane style is still appealing at bumping defence.
But I feel a need for a little power up on the number of use/round, like a number of use per attacks given by BAB to be a little more reliable at higher levels.
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While I'm certainly not stating that the poll linked has a similar accuracy, I feel reasonably confident in stating that 200 unique users is a larger percentage of Paizo's total number of unique customers, than 1000 out of 146 million voters.
That said, the poll is obviously skewed: Towards Pathfinder's (possibly more hardcore) fans who regularly visit the forums, and towards posters who have an opinion on Crane Wing errata in general - which is why I made a point of saying it was unofficial, though in hindsight I think "informal" might have been a more appropriate word.
However, instead of picking apart words, let's try to put things into perspective... At the moment the Crane Wing threads have amassed more posts in one week (the Errata was published Friday, 7 days ago) than the Arcanist threads, pre- and post-revision, gathered in four weeks of playtesting - and playtesting is both a high-activity period and draws many posters that normally don't use the forum.
Clearly Paizo still considered the Arcanist threads a viable source of community feedback, and followed them closely.Much like they've made a point of stating (several times) that they're watching the Crane Wing threads closely, and have posted in them repeatedly.
Respectfully, "a few people didn't agree with this decision, and have been fairly vocal about their displeasure" is not an accurate summary of the situation.
I have to say like most polls, it was missing a few options. While I am certain that there is some degree of unhappiness with this, the number of threads created about it -- and let me be clear that a number of those threads are populated by mostly the same people saying mostly the same things about being unhappy about the change in between comments about how those who do not agree do not understand -- isn't an indicator of much more than the really active people here on the forums posted a lot about the change.
This reminds me strikingly about the kerfuffle about Affleck becoming Batman as an example. A loud number of people argued back and forth about it, and the rest of those interested stayed out of the mayhem. These threads are a bloodbath right now and are useful for blowing off steam and expressing that some people are unhappy. Once the screaming and thrashing around stops it might be more productive and the folks at Paizo can sort out the information they need, and more people will get involved. Right now the silent folks are staying out of it.
My errata for Crane Wing would've been this:
While in Crane Style, a practitioner may use Crane Wing. Using Crane Wing requires an immediate action. When used, you make one melee attack that you're aware of miss. On the round subsequent to using Crane Wing, you give up one of your attacks at your highest BAB; if you only have a single attack, using Crane Wing means you do not get to attack on the next round.
My errata for Crane Riposte would've been this:
When you are in Crane Style, your penalty for attacking is reduced to -1. When you use the Crane Wing defense, it is a free action. You may also make an Attack of Opportunity against the enemy whose blow you deflected.
===
Outside of legalese:
1) Crane Wing is an Immediate Action, so it's somewhat limiting on action economy to some builds that have uses for their Swift/Immediate Action
2) It consumes one of your best attacks on the next round, or your only attack on your next round if you move.
Penalty 2 remains in place when using Crane Riposte, though Crane Riposte effectively time-shifts that best attack into your AoO.
A few people didn't agree with this decision, and have been fairly vocal about their displeasure.
LOL.
"A few people"
I don't believe I ever stated, nor presumed, that forum posters are 'worth more' as Pathfinder players. In fact, I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to put words in my mouth.A few people" were the words used, actually.
200 unique users, out of hundreds of thousands of players.
Why do you erroneously presume that forum posters are 'worth more' as Pathfinder players?
(There may indeed be more people who "don't agree with the decision", but they're uncountable and untrackable. With the data we have available so far of those who didn't agree - it's miniscule number... hence "a few people". We might be able to go one step further than where we are, though - does anyone know the number of unique forum accounts on Paizo? The % could then be 200 out of that number. I'm going to guess it's still very tiny.)
Okay. Then I'd avoid pretending 200 people on a self-selecting "survey" is relevant or meaningful in any way, shape, or form.
As for the poll itself:
The total number of US registered voters in 2012 was roughly 146 million. The typical gallup poll size for US politics uses 1 000 successful phone calls, and has an error margin of +/- 4%.
While I'm certainly not stating that the poll linked has a similar accuracy, I feel reasonably confident in stating that 200 unique users is a larger percentage of Paizo's total number of unique customers, than 1000 out of 146 million voters.
I wouldn't. It's a self-selecting poll in a subset of an audience (Paizo messageboard users) - it's not even close. Hence my comment "does anyone know the number of unique forum accounts on Paizo? The % could then be 200 out of that number. I'm going to guess it's still very tiny.)"
However, instead of picking apart words, let's try to put things into perspective... At the moment the Crane Wing threads have amassed more posts in one week...
Indeed. Conclusion? There are some real passionate fans out there.
Respectfully, "a few people didn't agree with this decision, and have been fairly vocal about their displeasure" is not an accurate summary of the situation.
Respectfully, I think it is an accurate summary. 200/x form users is a teeny, tiny percentage. I'm interested to see if I'll be proven wrong with real stats. (The - very limited - stats we do have right now happen to back me up. But I agree - not something anyone would want to hang their hats on, either.)
And why do YOU presume the silent masses are okay with the nerf?
Already covered:
(There may indeed be more people who "don't agree with the decision", but they're uncountable and untrackable. With the data we have available so far of those who didn't agree - it's miniscule number... hence "a few people".)
I find it supremely arrogant of any side to just assume that the silent majority is on their side. What, you have some special superpower to know that without need of them saying anything? Are you Professor X?
*chuckle* You assume I'm on a side, here. I don't have a horse in this race. I'm just a neutral - yet fascinated - third party observer who wants to hear what people think of Crane Wing and whether I should adopt it in some way into my game. But, if we want to go with the comic book snark, I'm certainly Professor X compared to your Longshot. Or Cypher?
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I am still under the opinion that crane wing was not as big of a problem in PFS as people make it out to be.I'm certainly jaded. Seriously, about 30 different characters (only two of which were level 6+ and maybe only a dozen were full monks) with Crane Wing is a ridiculous amount to see over so many months.
They almost outnumbered the scimitar-wielding Dervish Dancing magi who were running about with magic lineage empowered shocking grasp.
We can't have that...
(Of course, you know the solution to this particular problem is more folks need to make magi)
If your problem is with level 1-3 non-monks having it, then the problem is not CW. It's the monk of many styles dip.
That front-loaded classes and prestoge classes are abusable is something we know since 3.0 edition. It was supposed to be one of PF goals, to make 1st level dips and multiclaasing into several classes/PCs for a couple levels and then move on, less appealing. They totally forgot about it with monk of many styles, which IS built for dipping. Losing flurry of blows is a big no-no for full monks, and the heavy frontloading make it awesome for dips.
Like happened when they targeted free actions instead of weapon cords initially, they pulled tge trigger against the wrong target
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Paizo: "New feat -- Crane Wing -- check it out!"
Mechanics: "That seems pretty powerful - should it be toned down?"
Fanboys: "Shut up, theorycrafter! You don't know anything! Everything Paizo publishes is perfect and must never, ever be changed!"
Paizo: "Actualy, Crane Wing was too powerful; we nerfed it. A lot."
Mechanics: "Uh, you threw out the baby with the bath water. You nerfed it into oblivion, so no one will ever use it now!"
Fanboys: "Shut up, munchkin powergamer! Try role-playing instead of roll-playing for once! Everything Paizo does is perfect and must never, ever be questioned!"
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Paizo: "New feat -- Crane Wing -- check it out!"
Mechanics: "That seems pretty powerful - should it be toned down?"
Fanboys: "Shut up, theorycrafter! You don't know anything! Everything Paizo publishes is perfect and must never, ever be changed!"
Paizo: "Actualy, Crane Wing was too powerful; we nerfed it. A lot."
Mechanics: "Uh, you threw out the baby with the bath water. You nerfed it into oblivion, so no one will ever use it now!"
Fanboys: "Shut up, munchkin powergamer! Try role-playing instead of roll-playing for once! Everything Paizo does is perfect and must never, ever be questioned!"
LOL yeah, the Paizo defense squad is hard at work. Straight Crane Wing Monks were not serious threat in any well run campaign. I would argue that mirror image and fly blow crane wing away and cause lots more issues.
Every "problem" build uses Master of Many Styles to reduce monk levels.
Players who did a 2 level Master of Many styles dip, could achieve some balance issues because they could pair the ability with a class much stronger than monks. So what is the problem, Crane Wing or the MoMS dip?
LOL yeah, the Paizo defense squad is hard at work. Straight Crane Wing Monks were not serious threat in any well run campaign. I would argue that mirror image and fly blow crane wing away and cause lots more issues.Paizo: "New feat -- Crane Wing -- check it out!"
Mechanics: "That seems pretty powerful - should it be toned down?"
Fanboys: "Shut up, theorycrafter! You don't know anything! Everything Paizo publishes is perfect and must never, ever be changed!"
Paizo: "Actualy, Crane Wing was too powerful; we nerfed it. A lot."
Mechanics: "Uh, you threw out the baby with the bath water. You nerfed it into oblivion, so no one will ever use it now!"
Fanboys: "Shut up, munchkin powergamer! Try role-playing instead of roll-playing for once! Everything Paizo does is perfect and must never, ever be questioned!"
But mirror image and fly and emergency sphere are spells. Magic users are supposed to have cool things