How do the entangled and grappled conditions interact? (e.g. Entangle + Web)

[Keante]

I've always loved both the druid's Entangle spell and the sorcerer/wizard's Web spell. The first imposes the entangled condition, and the second imposes the grappled condition. Because I'll be playing a sorcerer of the Sylvan (Fey) bloodline who will have access to both spells, I want to understand how they would interact.

Entangled:

PRD wrote:

The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell.

Grappled:

PRD wrote:

A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

[bit about getting a bonus for being invisible that probably shouldn't apply to an inanimate object like a web]

So, the party is in a forested area. I cast Entangle, causing the small plant life to reach up and wrap around the legs of my enemies, making them entangled. Next round, I cast Web, anchored by three large trees, and my enemies are now grappled (in both cases, of course, assuming failed saves).

Do they take both -4 penalties to Dexterity for a total -8? What about the two -2 penalties to attack rolls? We have this text:

Penalty:

PRD wrote:

Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another.

Is there a place in the rules text that enumerates some non-stacking penalties?

[Kayerloth]

I would ... I'd probably even considered tossing both conditions (Entangled and Grappled) out and calling the victims 'Pinned' instead for simplicity though mechanically there are some differences.

Pinned:

A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

Bottom line is it doesn't really matter what I think unless it matters to your GM as they are the ones ultimately making the call.

[Archaeik]

These penalties stack, -8 Dex, -4 to most attack rolls, must make both concentration checks to cast a spell.

There's no RAW basis to convert this combination to Pinned, which is a much more severe condition than these 2 combined.

Seems like I've seen a few penalties that call out things that are "treat as" or don't stack with but I'm drawing a blank right now. Generally speaking, if it inflicts a condition, the condition doesn't keep stacking with itself.

[Weirdo]

Penalties obey the general rule that a single effect won't stack with itself. ("Magic: Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.")

Otherwise you can assume any two untyped penalties stack unless they specifically say otherwise (I can't think of any examples).

Archaeik wrote:

Generally speaking, if it inflicts a condition, the condition doesn't keep stacking with itself.

That, too.

But in this case you've got two different conditions that apply an untyped penalty to the same thing, so they stack.

[Keante]

Thanks for your replies.

It now seems pretty clear to me how the two spells would function in concert.

Let's move from rules lawyer-ing to tactics: Given that I've successfully caught enemies in either the Entangle or Web spell, do you believe it's worth spending the next round to cast the other of the two spells on them?