So, I was just thinking about this and figured I'd see what the group (and the Paizo staff) says about it.
Both Sajan and Lini have powers that let you change the die that you role. Sajan says "you may use your Dexterity die instead of your Stregth die". Lini says to "roll a d10 instead of your Strength or Dexterity die". My question is how are these two situations effected by Skill Feats.
Say Sajan has used two skill feats to modify his Dexterity so it's d10+2. When he uses his power does he roll the d10+2 or the d10 with no modifier? What if he put the two skill feats into Strength?
Now say Lini put her two skill feats into her Strength and she used her ability. Would she roll d10+2 or just the d10?
I think the answer to the first question is the d10+2 as the "die" is being replaced with another "die", assuming "die" includes the modifiers. For the second I think that it is the straight d10 as the "die" is being replaced specifically with the d10, and later can be modified as part of the power.
What does everyone else think? Also, I apologize if this was answered before. It's late and snowy and the thought struck me. Thanks.
Never even considered this. I thought you'd still keep whatever modifier and it just changes the die itself. Considering I've put two skill feats into Lini's strength, if that's not correct that's a major gamechanger for me.
If that is indeed the way the rule works then personally I think Lini's power needs a rewording to make the modifier add if the die is changed.. among other things giving her any bonus to her strength skill if it's only ever going to work for the 1d4 die is pretty pointless.
Note that Sajan's power has been reworded in the FAQ/errata (and the second printing, woohoo!) to match the template used for weapon cards: When Sajan uses his power to make a combat check without using a weapon, is it a Dexterity or Strength check?
This clears up a lot of questions about which skill he's using, which bonuses he gets, which blessing to use for 2 dice, etc.
Note that Sajan's power has been reworded in the FAQ/errata (and the second printing, woohoo!) to match the template used for weapon cards: When Sajan uses his power to make a combat check without using a weapon, is it a Dexterity or Strength check?
This clears up a lot of questions about which skill he's using, which bonuses he gets, which blessing to use for 2 dice, etc.
Didn't see that, as I said it was late. That does clear up the question about Sajan but still leaves the question of Lini up in the air.
Lini's ability, verbatim, is "You may discard a card to roll 1d10 (+1) (+2) (and you may add the Fire trait) instead of your Strength or Dexterity die for any check."
The weird thing about this is that syntactically, it is equivalent to:
"For any check, you may discard a card to roll 1d10 instead of your Strength or Dexterity die."
But mechanically, if a power starts off with "for your check" or "for a check", then it "determines which die you’re using". I'm pretty sure if Lini's power were worded with this slight re-arrangement, you could not, for instance, play a weapon and use her power during the same check (because again, both powers would start off with "For your check...").
But since Lini's power isn't worded that way, I think the designers' intent is that it can be used in addition to whatever power/card "determined which die you're using." I believe there were posts by Mike and/or Vic from a few months back that support this interpretation... I'll see if I can find those. If true, it is somewhat troubling that two syntactically equivalent statements would have different mechanics within the game.
EDIT: Found the posts, one from Mike and one from Chad in the same BGG thread:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/13436307#13436307
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/13443312#13443312
In this post, Mike weighs in on the exact question about Lini's power raised here
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q507?What-is-an-unmodified-Strength-die#5
Lini's power swaps the physical die. Later on you add the bonuses from the skill in use.
Ah, this conversation takes me back to where it all began...
h4ppy, you are correct in that it is the intent of the designers for Lini's power to work the way you described. But I still think her ability needs a rewording to indicate that it works that way.
Consider the following powers:
1a) Wand of Force Missiles: "For your combat check, bury this card to roll 4d4 with the Arcane and Force traits."
2a) Sajan: "For your combat check, you may roll your Dexterity die; you may not play a weapon on the check."
3a) Lini: "You may discard a card to roll 1d10 instead of your Strength or Dexterity die for any check."
Now consider these rewordings, which are syntactically equivalent to the originals:
1b) "For your combat check, instead of rolling your Strength or Melee die, you may bury this card to roll 4d4 with Arcane and Force traits."
2b) "For your combat check, instead of rolling your Strength or Melee die, you may roll your Dexterity die; you may not play a weapon on the check."
3b) "For any check, instead of rolling your Strength or Dexterity die, you may discard a card to roll 1d10."
New phrases are added in bold (but these are things that are directly implied from the cards and the rulebook). I've added no new phrases to 3b, just re-arranged the sentence a bit.
Under these rewordings (which preserve original meanings), it seems like all three powers should behave mechanically the same, because they essentially have the exact same structure. It is *not* immediately clear from reading Lini's power that it actually has a very different mechanic than either Wand of Force Missiles or Sajan's power.
Perhaps the loophole is that 3b) uses "any check" whereas 1b and 2b use a specific type of check, namely a "combat check". Maybe "any" somehow opens the door for it to be used during a check in which you've already "Determined which die you're using", but that is a *very* subtle thing.
Sorry, how is Sajan's different to Lini's?
With both powers:
1) you set the die in the first step (e.g. Sajan says "I'm going to use DEX for my combat check", Lini says "I'm going to use DEX for my dex check")
2) you pick up the relevant (physical) die (e.g. Sajan's d10 for DEX or Lini's d10 from her power).
3) you play other cards that boost the check
4) you assemble dice, roll them then *add any bonuses related to the skill you are using* (e.g. +2 if you have two ticks next to DEX)
5) you get your result and resolve the check
...what did I miss?
Lini's power doesn't stop you from using a weapon or some other "for your xyz check". Sajan's explicitly prevents you from using a weapon but the "for your combat check" bit already does this (the extra wording is a reminder).
Perhaps your (3b) should be more like "During any check, instead of rolling..."
Let's pretend I'm playing a Lini/Sajan hybrid (i.e. pretend there's a character that has both powers) and I have Wand of Force Missile in my hand.
It's my turn, I explore and I encounter a monster, triggering a combat check. By default, I can use either my Strength or Melee die on this check, unless I play a card or use a power that lets me change it. According to the rulebook, I can only do this once during this check:
Some cards may allow you to replace the required skill for a check with a different one; as part of this action, you may play only 1 card or use only 1 power that changes the skill you are going to use.
So my options are:
1. Bury Wand of Force Missile to roll 4d4 instead of my Strength or Melee die. According to Mike, the Skill has been changed to "nothing" (but they're still discussing this).
2. Use the Sajan power to roll my Dexterity die instead of my Strength or Melee die.
3. Use the Lini power to roll 1d10 instead of my Strength or Melee die. I'm arguing that the current wording suggests this should count as changing the skill to "nothing", just like the Wand of Force Missile.
With Wand of Force Missile, you don't declare to choose either Strength or Melee before you use the card to roll 4d4. The card "chooses" for you when you activate it, and in this case, it's choosing 4d4 with the "nothing" skill.
With Sajan's power, you don't declare to choose either Strength or Melee before you use it. You just activate the power and it "chooses" Dexterity for you.
With Lini's power, since it has a similar syntactical structure as the other two abilities, I'm arguing that it should have a similar mechanic. In other words, you don't declare to choose either Strength or Melee before you use it. You just activate the power and it "chooses" a 1d10 with the "nothing" skill for you.
Changing her power to be something like "During any check, ..." would be a step in the right direction, I think. Maybe:
"During any check, you may discard one card to replace your Strength or Dexterity die with 1d10."
I see where you're coming from. I guess the point is that the syntax is similar but the wording is also different. Lini's power doesn't start with the magic "For your xyz check" wording which sets the skill.
IMHO a FAQ entry to change the wording to "during" instead of "for", or to reword it along the lines of your latest post, wouldn't hurt.
Technically, the "For your xyz check" wording setting the skill isn't officially called out in the rulebook. That's a rule of thumb we've been using in the forums that pretty much covers all the cases we've seen so far, but it's not explicitly stated in the rules that you can only use one card with that wording structure per check (that wording just serves as a good indicator of a card that changes the skill, and the rulebook does explicitly say you can only play one card to change the skill per check).
Even if the "for your xyz check" rule was explicitly spelled out in the rulebook, it's a weird contortion of the English language to say that a card works one way if it begins with that phrase and behaves in an entirely different way if it ends with that phrase, as is it does in the case of Lini's power.
So, I was just thinking about this and figured I'd see what the group (and the Paizo staff) says about it.
Both Sajan and Lini have powers that let you change the die that you role. Sajan says "you may use your Dexterity die instead of your Stregth die". Lini says to "roll a d10 instead of your Strength or Dexterity die". My question is how are these two situations effected by Skill Feats.
Say Sajan has used two skill feats to modify his Dexterity so it's d10+2. When he uses his power does he roll the d10+2 or the d10 with no modifier? What if he put the two skill feats into Strength?
Now say Lini put her two skill feats into her Strength and she used her ability. Would she roll d10+2 or just the d10?
I think the answer to the first question is the d10+2 as the "die" is being replaced with another "die", assuming "die" includes the modifiers. For the second I think that it is the straight d10 as the "die" is being replaced specifically with the d10, and later can be modified as part of the power.
What does everyone else think? Also, I apologize if this was answered before. It's late and snowy and the thought struck me. Thanks.
At the moment, there's work being done to draw a distinction between a "die" and a "skill". The die is just that, the actual physical die, whereas the skill includes the modifier. As such, here are some situations that should help clear up your confusion:
1) Sajan has selected 2 STR feats and makes a STR check. He opts to use his die replacement power, so he rolls 1d10 + 2.
2) Sajan has selected 2 DEX feats and makes a STR check. He opts to use his power and thus rolls 1d10.
3) Lini has selected 2 STR feats and makes a STR check. She discards a card to swap dice, so her roll is 1d10 + 2.
4) Lini has selected 2 DEX feats and makes a STR check. She discards a card to swap die and rolls 1d10.
Does that clear up the confusion?
At the moment, there's work being done to draw a distinction between a "die" and a "skill". The die is just that, the actual physical die, whereas the skill includes the modifier. As such, here are some situations that should help clear up your confusion:
1) Sajan has selected 2 STR feats and makes a STR check. He opts to use his die replacement power, so he rolls 1d10 + 2.
2) Sajan has selected 2 DEX feats and makes a STR check. He opts to use his power and thus rolls 1d10.
3) Lini has selected 2 STR feats and makes a STR check. She discards a card to swap dice, so her roll is 1d10 + 2.
4) Lini has selected 2 DEX feats and makes a STR check. She discards a card to swap die and rolls 1d10.
Does that clear up the confusion?
Yes Cap'n, that is the basis of the issue I was having. Do they mean skill or die? Thanks a lot.
Wait, wait, wait. You lost me with numbers 1 & 2. Sajan can only do this on a combat check. So he's never really making a strength check with his power. If Sajan has selected 2 DEX feats and makes a combat check and uses his power, he rolls 1d10 + 2. Right? That's how I've played him.
If Sajan is really making a Strength check he can't use his power, so he rolls 1d6 + however many feats he's taken.
So its really (i'm using different numbers in the feats to make it more clear)
1) Sajan has selected 1 STR feats and makes a STR check. He can't use his power, so he rolls 1d6 + 1.
2) Sajan has selected 2 DEX feats and makes a DEX check. He can't use his power, but it doesn't matter anyway. He rolls 1d10 + 2.
2.5) Sajan has selected 2 DEX feats and makes a COMBAT check. He opts to use his power and rolls 1d10 + 2.
Did I miss something?
1) Sajan has selected 2 STR feats and makes a STR check. He opts to use his die replacement power, so he rolls 1d10 + 2.
2) Sajan has selected 2 DEX feats and makes a STR check. He opts to use his power and thus rolls 1d10.
I don't think this is correct. His power, according to the FAQ, is
"For your combat check, you may roll your Dexterity die; you may not play a weapon on the check."
If Sajan uses this power, his Strength never comes into play. The power basically just opens up his default options from Strength/Melee to Strength/Melee/Dexterity when making a combat check.
If he uses Dexterity for a combat check, he gets his Dexterity bonuses, not his Strength bonuses.
If he uses Strength for a combat check, he gets his Strength bonuses, not his Dexterity bonuses.
Here's another way to look at what I was saying about Lini's power. Consider the following two statements:
0a) You may discard a card to roll 1d10 for any check.
0b) For any check, you may discard a card to roll 1d10.
In 0a, all I've done is strip out the phrase "instead of your Strength or Dexterity die" from Lini's power.
In 0b, I just re-arranged the order of the sentence a bit, but it is syntactically the same as 0a.
I think pretty much everyone would agree 0b means you discard a card to activate it, then you use an "unskilled" 1d10 as your die for the check (similar to what Wand of Force Missile would do). By extension, 0a should mechanically do the same thing as 0b.
Now let's go back to the actual version of Lini's power. Consider the following chain of modifications
1a) You may discard a card to roll 1d10 instead of your Strength or Dexterity die for any check.
1b) For any check, you may discard a card to roll 1d10 instead of your Strength or Dexterity die.
1c) For any check, instead of your Strength or Dexterity die, you may discard a card to roll 1d10.
1d) For any check where you would roll your Strength or Dexterity die, you may discard a card to roll 1d10 instead.
1e) For any check where you would roll your Strength or Dexterity die, you may discard a card to roll 1d10.
1a is the original version of Lini's power.
In 1b, I've modified 1a in the same way I did going from 0a to 0b.
In 1c, I've modified 1b by re-arranging the sentence a bit, but it is syntactically equivalent to 1b and 1a.
In 1d, I've possibly changed the meaning of the sentence, but in a very subtle way if so. I'm having a tough time spotting any actual difference in meaning between 1c and 1d, but if anyone sees it, please chime in.
In 1e, I've dropped the word "instead". The rulebook makes it clear you can only play one card or power that determines which die to use for a check, so I don't really need the word "instead". With this understanding, the "roll 1d10" instruction implies that I roll that instead of my Strength or Dexterity die, so I can drop "instead."
I'd argue that 1a through 1e all say basically the same thing, just in slightly different ways. I don't think I made any drastic changes in meaning in going from one line to the next.
So now if you accept that, notice that 1e and 0b are essentially the same sentence. The only difference is that 1e comes with a qualification on what type of check I can use the power. But other than that, they are mechanically the same and syntactically the same. This would suggest that much like Wand of Force Missile, Lini is rolling a generic 1d10 with no associated skill when she activates her power.
Please poke holes in this argument!
My friendly suggestion for Lini's power: It would be clearer if it just said "You may discard a card to increase your strength or dexterity die to 1d10 for any check."
"Increase" removes any of the confusion about whether its still her strength or dexterity skill and therefore makes it more obvious to still incorporate the associated skill feats.
1) Sajan has selected 2 STR feats and makes a STR check. He opts to use his die replacement power, so he rolls 1d10 + 2.
2) Sajan has selected 2 DEX feats and makes a STR check. He opts to use his power and thus rolls 1d10.
I don't think this is correct. His power, according to the FAQ, is
"For your combat check, you may roll your Dexterity die; you may not play a weapon on the check."
If Sajan uses this power, his Strength never comes into play. The power basically just opens up his default options from Strength/Melee to Strength/Melee/Dexterity when making a combat check.
You are never allowed to make a dexterity check for combat. Some things, like weapons, allow you to build your dice differently for a combat check, but otherwise the default is always using your STR/Melee skill. As such, using your DEX die would be replacing your STR die with your DEX die, but it would still be considered your STR skill . (page 11 of the rulebook might be helpful here). Thus, you'd get the modifiers from your STR skill, not your DEX skill. That is, his STR skill is ALWAYS in play for a combat check unless another card replaces it. By replacing the die, you're not replacing the skill.
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Sajan's power is just like a really weak weapon that says "For your combat check, reveal this card to roll you dexterity die."
Most monsters and some barriers call for a combat check. Weapons and many other cards that can be used during combat generally tell you what skill to use when you attempt a combat check.
Sajan's power tells you to use Dexterity.
Character cards are a type of card. So just like playing a weapon can let you use dexterity and all its skill feats, playing Sajan's power lets you use dexterity and all its skill feat.
Sajan and Lini, I'm sure, will get a decent overhaul to the wording of their powers once the switch in language is made to emphasize skill versus die (you can see it already happening in the S&S Play-test), so how the wording may change for their powers is anybody's guess.
If Sajan's power is intended to allow him to use his DEX skill rater than his DEX die , that will be how it's worded whenever they get around to making all those changes.
For now, I'm fairly certain this question has been answered elsewhere on the forum by Mike or Vic, so it might be best for all of us to just seek out their answer (my recollection is that it agrees with my examples, but if I'm remembering incorrectly I'll happily retract what I said.) Plodding through that entire thread H4ppy quoted above wasn't a lot of fun the first time though ;)
This one maybe? http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q3h3?Amulet-of-Fists#35
That one does seem to agree, though I'm always hesitant to trust threads from the beginning of September, since the interpretations of the rules have changed somewhat since then. There's also a LOT of wrong info floating around that thread :(
@CaptainBulldozer - I think you're wrong here... Sajan's power sets DEX as the base of his check. So you then add any DEX bonuses/feats when you are calculating your result.
In RotR I'm fairly sure that you would NEVER roll your DEX die but add your STR bonuses/feats. The die sets the 'skill' for the check, then you add the bonuses related to that skill later.
This is the crux of my original What is a Die thread (and what drew me into this PACG black hole in the first place)!
From what Vic said in that thread, it seems you guys are right. It is still a little tricky to be sure since in the beginning, die and skill were being used interchangeably, and that is changing at present. As I said, I expect a clarification of this in the distant future when the wording changes become official.