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My party, 6 at level 14 (using slightly better an array than normal- so they are ECL 16-17, effectively-they consistently take down the 6-character conversion versions of monsters with little trouble), is quite unstoppable using tactics of flying out of range and making distant attacks with arrows (one can do 80-120 damage with arrows at a range of nearly 200 feet).
I want to give them a challenge while still respecting their individual abilities.
In the showdown for Nyrissa, how could I rules-legally, nerf their flying and any distance issues so they don't just essentially avoid all damage?
My current plan is:
Permanenced Dimensional Anchor on the room? (so mages can't teleport out)
Pillars and walls so the archer can't shoot from overly-far-away.
But how do I deal with flying? will it be good enough to just have a 25 foot ceiling?
Any other suggestions for making the final battle memorable?
IIRC, the room that it takes place in is only 30' across and 10' high, specifically to nerf such abilities. It's also (depending on whether it's still in the First World) a pocket dimension which is only accessible in specific ways, so the Dimensional Anchor is already there.
Don't wait for the players to enter the Fable and take them by surprise. Nyrissa effectively knows what is happening in her castle through scrying, so I had her jump on the PCs as they were starting to get ready for their entrance in the Fable. That was one big advantage for her. She also came with an elder air elemental, which helped her against targets who were staying at a distance. Her AC is also really high, so I'm not even sure having someone trying to shoot her from a distance is that much of a problem.
In addition, she is so intelligent and has been following the PCs for so long that you should be allowed to metagame to counter your PCs' tactics. They like shooting arrows from a distance? Change her spells/scrolls/wands so she can counter it.
If you want to see how our final fight played out, you can find a summary here. Maybe you'll find some inspiration there!
Yeah, the Fable is a tiny, tiny room (unless the PCs haven't uprooted Thousandbreaths, in which case Nyrissa gets a HUGE advantage as she also can fly around and take advantage of greater space and maneuverability), with almost no vertical space and only Nyrissa's antilife shell keeping her from being straight-up cornered by meleers.
Admittedly I'm ditching that to allow her enough room to have Phomandala and either Mistah J or the Zomok in there with her, so the PCs can't just all gang up on her.
Dimensional Anchor
Great that Dimensional Anchor is already present- that would have been a point for debate. I *thought* it might be present, but I hadn't seen it explicitly spelled out.
Room Size
I am slightly concerned that players may be knocking out walls or attempting to increase the size of the room somehow. Is making the walls adamantium a good counter idea?
Fickle Winds
That sounds perfect for defense! The players previously defeated a raging windstorm level of wind (druid in party :() which led to a very quick defeat from a distance for the Nightmare Rook.
Nyrissa Getting the Jump.
I will consider if it might be best to host in another room... Currently I was figuring her to start invisible or something, and her minions to be in the room (I'm moving some in to up the CR) and for the battle to start with them to soak damage, while she taunts the players.
Melee
Interestingly, my players almost never melee... That being said- do I need to worry about her losing concentration checks if she gets tapped by an 80+ damage sneak attack? Was that an issue for anyone? (I am predicting an impending argument from my players)
pennywit-
Nice idea. Not for my game, but I'm sure it will be useful for someone! In my game, I already split things up, one fellow has been defending the kingdom in wargame fashion, dealing with each of the "Day" challenges the Fey queen threw at them while the PCs take on the direct threats. (e.g. - Fey queen sends a couple of mire worms- the PCs deal with them... meanwhile their armies fight an army of smaller mire worms; e.g. 4 water elementals v. pcs while their army faces an epic army of water elementals and defeats them by collapsing a mountain on the creatures).
Notes-
My best estimates as to the issues I need to confront:
1. Players like ranged weapons... I think fickle winds should help there.
2. Players have meleed magic casters before and caused them to lose concentration and waste all their spells.
3. Players will be angry if a save or die or "cheap" spell kills them...and I will certainly have a massive argument on my hands. So it would be better to kill them in another fashion (I intend to let all hell break loose since it's the last game session). Still, I'd rather not lose friends over it, and I'd rather they not feel cheated.
Clarification- whenever a spellcaster casts anything- the players just take AOOs on the caster and strike the caster down in one turn... this happened with Vordakai and Ilthuliak.
CASTING DEFENSIVELY
I did not think of that. Thank you!
This is a consequence of my players knowing more about the rules than I and not always telling me when it is to their disadvantage.
It seems that the check should be trivial for most casters.
This may have been making things easier for them.
WEARING DOWN THE PLAYERS
On a re-read of the section, I suppose that the other fights leading up to Nyrissa should help weaken the players re-usable spells a bit- so I'll keep that in mind! That being said- My characters have argued before that they can rest for 8 or 16 hours and recover all spells; how can I protect against that? Nebulous "nightmares" won't cut it... and I'm concerned that having Nyrissa pop up when they're sleeping will either be anticlimactic- they won't enter the fable... or just annoying. She fights 2 rounds, then TPs away back to the fable... or more likely gets Dimensional Anchored herself...
OLWEN
Yes, thank you for the read of your tale- it will be helpful.
--
example of what I'm dealing with:
A 14th Level Druid with gear of a level 12 or 13 character soloed a CR 19 6-player version of Ilthuliak and nearly killed the dragon.
1. Druid summoned a bunch of creatures to harass Ilthuliak.
2. Ilthuliak's darkness had no effect due to the creatures chosen. Ilthuliak tried to blast them with his line, but only got rid of a few. No matter. Ilthuliak focused on Druid with Enervation... Druid had Death Ward up... so it fizzled. All of his creatures took AOOs on the dragon.
3. Druid summons stirges. They latch on an proceed to annihilate the dragon.
4. Dragon is down to 6 Con when one helpful player points out to me that Dimension door may break grapples, so Ilthuliak tries to Dimension door away and succeeds... about 70 HP away from deaths door.
...And that's just the Druid's can of tricks...
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Don't forget her Nymph abilities, they are nasty (blinding Beauty and stunning glance). Pick the tough guy and cast Maze on him. Use fickle winds to thwart the archers. Anti Life shell and chain lightning to soften up the pcs. Try a dominate. Or dispel their buffs (actually a clue to beating her) When my PCs faced her she was super tough, it looked dire for a few rounds. They figured out that they needed to debuff her so they tried a few dispels. One anti-magic field later she went from OP to chump. Dropped her the next round.
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Yes, I was also going to point out Nyrissa's nymph abilities. Don't forget her blinding beauty. Effectively, anyone within 30 feet who attacks/targets her without averting their gaze needs to do this DC 29 Will save every round or become blind. If they avert their gaze, it's a 50% miss-chance for them. That got nasty quite quickly for my group. Your ranged characters could potentially be attacking from more than 30 feet, but I'm not sure it's very likely in the castle or the Fable that both have rooms that are quite small. And Nyrissa could always move behind a corner, in a smaller room, etc. to force the ranged PCs to get closer.
Room Size
I am slightly concerned that players may be knocking out walls or attempting to increase the size of the room somehow. Is making the walls adamantium a good counter idea?
The Fable is a Demiplane. There's nothing beyond the wall but more wall. If they want to dig through an endlessly-thick wall instead of fighting the final boss....
Melee
Interestingly, my players almost never melee... That being said- do I need to worry about her losing concentration checks if she gets tapped by an 80+ damage sneak attack? Was that an issue for anyone? (I am predicting an impending argument from my players)
The question will mainly be if they can get sneak attack at all. She has true seeing available to her, I'd be disappointed if she hadn't used it, and being Fey gets Perception as a class skill so she should have that maxed out. It should be incredibly difficult for anyone in the Fable to hide from Nyrissa, even if they have something like Hide in Plain Sight or Hellcat Stealth that lets them hide without concealment.
3. Players will be angry if a save or die or "cheap" spell kills them...and I will certainly have a massive argument on my hands. So it would be better to kill them in another fashion (I intend to let all hell break loose since it's the last game session). Still, I'd rather not lose friends over it, and I'd rather they not feel cheated.
You need to talk to your players then about avoiding high-level play altogether, because SODs are a BIG part of caster trick boxes at that level. If they don't want to face this, they shouldn't play at those levels. Simple as that.
This is a consequence of my players knowing more about the rules than I and not always telling me when it is to their disadvantage.
You should tell them straight-up that this is cheating.
That being said- My characters have argued before that they can rest for 8 or 16 hours and recover all spells; how can I protect against that? Nebulous "nightmares" won't cut it...
If you let them have a 15-minute adventuring day, this will be stupid easy for them.
Harry them with minions sent by Nyrissa when they go to rest. Put them on a timer - if they don't stop her by X amount of time, she can attempt to bottle their kingdom again, or Thousandbreaths will return to the First World, or other things like that (ignore the book's limitations of "she has to wait years and years to try again", in this case - you need the advantage of a time limit). Things like that.
Do NOT let them get away with "blow all spells in one battle, okay time to rest". They are in enemy territory. If they rest in Thousandbreaths, Nyrissa will know and can attack them in their sleep. If they leave, she can reorganize her defenses.
Effectively, anyone within 30 feet who attacks/targets her without averting their gaze needs to do this DC 29 Will save every round or become blind.
Do note on Blinding Beauty, unlike many other monster abilities, it does NOT have the clause of "Anyone who makes their save is immune for 24 hours". Making their save just means they're not blind THIS ROUND. They have to save again on the next.
Honestly all in all it sounds like your players want to curbstomp all over your opponents and throw a temper tantrum any time the bad guys get a good hit in. I don't know about you but this would be a very frustrating group for me to run for.
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The House at the End of Time is also completely under her control. All enemies are revived after 24 hours while Nyrissa lives.
Let them rest. This should come as a shocker to them when they are awoken in the middle of the night by things they thought they had killed.
Oh yes, I'd completely forgotten about that.
That includes "boss" type enemies like The Wriggling Man and Phomandala.
ACID POOL (Question)
Regarding Acid Pool, isn't that a ground only effect? My players have stymied my attempts to cast things that have area of effect by pointing that out. Therefore, the stirges couldn't be submerged, the acid would fall off them. Acid Fog might work, though, so maybe I could use that? It would do 2d6; a stirge has 5HP, so it wouldn't necessarily kill them off, but with luck it should.
FULL ROUND ATTACKS
Also, I've been told that a dragon cannot make a full round attack if its flying- so how can a dragon be an effective fighter? I get that it has 200 feet fly, so it could dive bomb if it had a feat, but it doesn't seem to have the charge feat (or whatever it should be) to attack. 22d6 in a breath weapon 1d4 rounds is almost no damage whatsoever--especially when the 22d6 can only hit one stirge.
The players placed the stirges in 8 different locations around the dragon and the breath weapon only works in a straight line; thus it could only hit one at a time.
DISPELLING BUFFS
>>Or dispel their buffs (actually a clue to beating her) When my PCs faced her she was super tough, it looked dire for a few rounds. They figured out that they needed to debuff her so they tried a few dispels. One anti-magic field later she went from OP to chump. Dropped her the next round.
My understanding is that's what they're going to open with. I'm imagining them hitting her with Dispel magic. I think her SR is high enough to bounce most of that though- Ilthuliak's SR was high enough to bounce the dispels leveled against her.
Thus why my current plan is to put most of the lower level enemies in the final showdown room- the ghosts, etc. in the same room with her, to potentially harass the players enough to keep them off her.
Regarding dispelling the players' buffs... decent idea, but it sacrifices an action to do very little damage to them. I think if I put say Philomena or the Hag in the room with the Queen though, that might work.
RESTING (QUESTION)
>>Are your players stopping within Nyrissa's home for an eight hour rest to recharge spells? Something attacks them.
That is a question. If the rest is interrupted, can't the players just rest again? e.g. 6 hours in, attacked for 20 seconds, then sleep another two?
BLINDING BEAUTY
Blinding Beauty is a good point- thank you for the full explanation. I suspect it will mean nothing though since the spellcasters can just AOE her. But I am going to give it a go!
STEALTH
>>The question will mainly be if they can get sneak attack at all. She has true seeing available to her, I'd be disappointed if she hadn't used it, and being Fey gets Perception as a class skill so she should have that maxed out. It should be incredibly difficult for anyone in the Fable to hide from Nyrissa, even if they have something like Hide in Plain Sight or Hellcat Stealth that lets them hide without concealment.
I seem to recall the rogue is able to get a +65 on stealth with invisibility, possibly higher and the rogue does have Hide in Plain Sight. I'll roll the checks though, so that's important.
That being said, if the rogue goes before she does, she'd be flat footed and he could get off his attack.
15 MINUTE ADVENTURING DAY
>>If you let them have a 15-minute adventuring day, this will be stupid easy for them.
Noted. I will try my best to avoid this. I think one of our best series of sessions was the war of attrition in Vordakai's caverns. ... which was then followed by some whining about how I need to let the players rest more b/c it's too unfair to the spellcasters to run 10+ encounters in a row and how I have no understanding of how to GM the game properly. The essential opinion is that the players are heroes so therefore they should always be able to use all their abilities at any time they want.
HIGH LEVEL PLAY
>>If they don't want to face this, they shouldn't play at those levels. Simple as that.
Can't really argue with that. I'm just finishing it now to finish it. Which is a pity because I love high level play BECAUSE it gives the possibility for players and the GM to do some really neat things that break the game... but they INSIST on playing 100% by the book. They often express hate for how Paizo has no understanding of how DnD works. How paizo's enemies are ill-constructed crap and are pushovers and how Pathfinder didn't fix severe flaws with DnD and how the game totally breaks down at high levels... but they won't let me crib together my on-the-fly fixes because the fixes are 'unfair' and don't respect the rules of the game... I used to make many many alterations and do things on the fly, but it led to too much arguing, so I just ask them what the rules are now and let it go by that b/c apparently I'm crap at interpreting the rules. (My interpretations are "wrong" almost all the time and lead to much wailing and gnashing of the teeth).
WAY FORWARD
I'm thinking I will put Ilthuliak Part II (mostly stirge drained, but also Healed and restored partially by the Hag) and the Linnorm to attack concurrently.
The question is if they should attack on the bridge, or if I should put them both inside the House, so they'll respawn.
Just slap them in the courtyard, which stretches to immense height. This seems like a good timer for the players... there's NO WAY they'll want to fight those creatures *another* time.
IN SUM
Thank you again. This has been very helpful and it will really help me confront any disputes and to plan an effective and entertaining game.
ACID POOL (Question)
Regarding Acid Pool, isn't that a ground only effect? My players have stymied my attempts to cast things that have area of effect by pointing that out.
Your players are wrong and/or lying. There is nothing about the Acid Pool's text that requires it be on the ground:
An ancient or older black dragon can use its breath weapon to create an acid pool as a standard action. This acid pool has a radius of 50 feet. When an acid pool is created, anyone inside its area takes 20d6 points of acid damage (Reflex half). Any creature that starts its turn touching this pool takes damage, but can make a Reflex save for half. Each round, the total damage dice of the pool is halved (10d6 round 2, 5d6 round 3, 2d6 round 4, 1d6 round 5) until the result would be less than 1d6. The acid pool floats on water, and deals damage to anything on the surface.
It doesn't say anything about having to be on the ground, only specifies that it floats on water (important since black dragons are aquatic). Otherwise it just creates a bubble.
Most AoE effects specify they go off when they hit a target - not necessarily the ground - or when the caster/user chooses to have them go off. You can make a fireball explode harmlessly in the sky without anything to detonate against just by picking a point for it to explode, if you wanted, for example.
I have never, ever heard the phrase "ground only effect" before today. That should tell you something.
FULL ROUND ATTACKS
Also, I've been told that a dragon cannot make a full round attack if its flying- so how can a dragon be an effective fighter?
This is BS. The dragon can fly and full-attack just fine. It's a DC 15 Fly check to hover in place; an Ancient Black Dragon has +17 to Fly, it auto-makes those checks because skills don't fail on a 1. You don't even have to roll.
I get that it has 200 feet fly, so it could dive bomb if it had a feat, but it doesn't seem to have the charge feat (or whatever it should be) to attack.
You don't need a feat to charge. If your players are telling you that, they're lying.
DISPELLING BUFFS
>>Or dispel their buffs (actually a clue to beating her) When my PCs faced her she was super tough, it looked dire for a few rounds. They figured out that they needed to debuff her so they tried a few dispels. One anti-magic field later she went from OP to chump. Dropped her the next round.My understanding is that's what they're going to open with. I'm imagining them hitting her with Dispel magic. I think her SR is high enough to bounce most of that though- Ilthuliak's SR was high enough to bounce the dispels leveled against her.
Thus why my current plan is to put most of the lower level enemies in the final showdown room- the ghosts, etc. in the same room with her, to potentially harass the players enough to keep them off her.
Regarding dispelling the players' buffs... decent idea, but it sacrifices an action to do very little damage to them. I think if I put say Philomena or the Hag in the room with the Queen though, that might work.
Not a bad option. You'll want to make the Fable bigger if you go that route though.
RESTING (QUESTION)
>>Are your players stopping within Nyrissa's home for an eight hour rest to recharge spells? Something attacks them.That is a question. If the rest is interrupted, can't the players just rest again? e.g. 6 hours in, attacked for 20 seconds, then sleep another two?
Nope. A caster needs a full night of uninterrupted rest (8 hours for most races, 4 for elves) followed by an hour of meditation or study to prepare their spells or spell slots for the day. A late-night interruption means they have to start completely over.
What does NOT require uninterrupted rest like that is fatigue penalties for losing sleep; THAT can be made up with four hours here then four hours there, or six and two, or whatever. But that's not going to help the spellcasters keeping up their spells.
BLINDING BEAUTY
Blinding Beauty is a good point- thank you for the full explanation. I suspect it will mean nothing though since the spellcasters can just AOE her. But I am going to give it a go!
If they're AOEing her they're having to deal with her SR. That's actually one of your better options, especially if you can get her some resistances to their elements of choice. Nyrissa's been watching the PCs for years by now - she knows their tactics! Rearrange her spells prepared, her gear, her buffs, everything to suit that knowledge. She's not stupid, and has all the time in the world to get ready for their arrival. She should never be caught off guard.
STEALTH
>>The question will mainly be if they can get sneak attack at all. She has true seeing available to her, I'd be disappointed if she hadn't used it, and being Fey gets Perception as a class skill so she should have that maxed out. It should be incredibly difficult for anyone in the Fable to hide from Nyrissa, even if they have something like Hide in Plain Sight or Hellcat Stealth that lets them hide without concealment.I seem to recall the rogue is able to get a +65 on stealth with invisibility, possibly higher and the rogue does have Hide in Plain Sight. I'll roll the checks though, so that's important.
The +40 invisibility bonus goes away thanks to True Seeing. So that's only +25. With maxed perception at her level, Nyrissa has an easy chance of beating it.
That being said, if the rogue goes before she does, she'd be flat footed and he could get off his attack.
Is he a melee or ranged rogue? If melee, he can't get to her thanks to her anti-life shell until it's dispelled or she dismisses it or does something to force it away.
15 MINUTE ADVENTURING DAY
>>If you let them have a 15-minute adventuring day, this will be stupid easy for them.Noted. I will try my best to avoid this. I think one of our best series of sessions was the war of attrition in Vordakai's caverns. ... which was then followed by some whining about how I need to let the players rest more b/c it's too unfair to the spellcasters to run 10+ encounters in a row and how I have no understanding of how to GM the game properly. The essential opinion is that the players are heroes so therefore they should always be able to use all their abilities at any time they want.
They don't want a challenge. They want to curbstomp everything without opposition. This is a bad precedent, and it does nothing but make the game easy. The players get to be lazy, they don't have to ration their resources, they don't have to worry about if they'll have the tools they need when they need them, and they aren't challenged at all.
You ran Vordakai's lair appropriately. Treat Nyrissa's realm much the same.
HIGH LEVEL PLAY
>>If they don't want to face this, they shouldn't play at those levels. Simple as that.Can't really argue with that. I'm just finishing it now to finish it. Which is a pity because I love high level play BECAUSE it gives the possibility for players and the GM to do some really neat things that break the game... but they INSIST on playing 100% by the book. They often express hate for how Paizo has no understanding of how DnD works. How paizo's enemies are ill-constructed crap and are pushovers and how Pathfinder didn't fix severe flaws with DnD and how the game totally breaks down at high levels... but they won't let me crib together my on-the-fly fixes because the fixes are 'unfair' and don't respect the rules of the game... I used to make many many alterations and do things on the fly, but it led to too much arguing, so I just ask them what the rules are now and let it go by that b/c apparently I'm crap at interpreting the rules. (My interpretations are "wrong" almost all the time and lead to much wailing and gnashing of the teeth).
...........
So let me get this straight.
They're complaining because Paizo made the game too easy, but when you try to adjust things to challenge them, they kick up a fuss about how it's too hard.
WTF.
WAY FORWARD
I'm thinking I will put Ilthuliak Part II (mostly stirge drained, but also Healed and restored partially by the Hag) and the Linnorm to attack concurrently.
The question is if they should attack on the bridge, or if I should put them both inside the House, so they'll respawn.
Initiate the attack on the bridge, that gives the two dragons with flight some more maneuverability, and since they're both acid types they can blast away at the PCs without worrying about hurting each other. If they get badly injured (by which I mean down to about half health or so), retreat within, and resume the battle inside.
IN SUM
Thank you again. This has been very helpful and it will really help me confront any disputes and to plan an effective and entertaining game.
I'm really sorry you have to deal with these people like this, there is some major bending and breaking of the rules here, and it is really rubbing me very raw that after all the things they've either deliberately or mistakenly misled you on about the ruleset they have the gall to complain about Paizo not knowing the rules or how to design.
Best of luck to you.
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In case they try the Stirge trick again have Ilthuliak spam 'Insect Plague' a few times before hand. It's an At Will and lasts 24 minutes per casting, which creates six swarms each, they stay still so create a ton o them up in the air, the dragons DR will make it immune to them and it just flies inside, any attached stirges get stung to death in a round.
Speaking of which, I am unsure and wasn't able to find anything about whether the DR would also stop the blood drain, I know it wouldn't stop a (Su) ability drain but (Ex) like Stirges have has no magic behind it, would it have any effect? By my reading of RAW the attack deals 0 damage, this damage does not get past the DR 20/Magic so no blood drain takes place since the ability is (Ex) and non magical in nature.
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First of all, sorry to hear about your group. Really! You sound like a swell DM who wants to challenge his players and have an amazing story to tell, and your players are ruining it.
Remember: it's your funtime as much as it is theirs!! :-)
If they say "The monster cannot" or "He doesn't have the right feat" simply go: "You may be correct, but he uses his Villain Point to do it today."
Don't exagerate, but use it to prevent roflstomping.
Lastly: you ran Vordakai the way you were supposed to: painful, hard, an epic achievment should they survive. Do so again here.
Maybe warn your players that this is the endgame, and the "+5 gloves of behaving" will be replaced by the "+5 gauntlets of player pain"! :-D
Iirc I had ithy hide in his lair behind layers of insects and swapped in anti-aging shell as one of his high level spells. It meant his DR/20 magic stayed pretty potent. He managed to get the sword and escape with it.
Thank you for the follow-up explanations.
Here's a report of the good and the bad news about what's happened so far:
THE GOOD NEWS.
-The good news is that I was able to run a challenging Ilthuliak/Tarlaxian encounter on the bridge v. the party. Thank you for the suggestions.
One party member died to the twin dragons because he strangely decided to walk over the bridge after hearing two dragon voices coming from underneath it? I am not entirely sure why he kept moving forward. Then, instead of fleeing, he cowered behind the bridge's cobblestone railing. He died to a pool of acid and Tarlaxian's con-draining poison. I hadn't intended to slay the character, but if a character takes a tactically odd move, then the result seems appropriate.
This death led to an amusing use of unseen servant later when the party was fleeing. The party needed a piece of the decedent for resurrection, and his body had essentially congealed into pieces of goo and bone, reduced by the acid, so they sent an unseen servant in to retrieve the viscera.
-The party nearly killed Ilthuliak. They just couldn't quite pull it off. It would have been nice if they could have and if they focused their firepower on her, it would have worked, but they split their attention between the two dragons. So, with 50 HP remaining, she fled into the House. Tarlaxian remained.
-The party used a great deal of thinking and their skills. The session generally ran smooth thanks to your advice- I was able to clarify the flying rules, and I was able to clarify a few other matters by reference here. This kept things moving.
THE BAD NEWS.
1. The players weren't happy that their 6-player Level 14 group had to fight two CR 19 dragons- they estimated the encounter at CR 22. My estimate is that it was a CR 21 encounter because Ilthuliak was down to half health due to being unable to fully "Heal" all the negative levels the stirges had done to her previously. My estimate is also that due to gear and a better stat array than paizo's basic array, the party is ECL 16 or 17. Therefore a 17 v. 21 CR is on the edge, but it is appropriate. Players did not agree and were a bit annoyed when driven off. Not annoyed as in, "shoot, lets try again" but annoyed as in "our GM is incompetent."
2. A ruling I made back when the witch was extremely weak and was facing primarily undead enemies and others who could not be affected by witch spells came back to haunt me.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes/major-hexes/hex-ma jor-ice-tomb-su
Ice Tomb.
I felt bad for the witch, who was doing very little to enemies. Later the witch learned better how to use the character and the group started facing less enemies that were immune to witchy powers.
So we had a long group discussion and decided that Ice Tomb still encased the target in 20 HP of ice even if the target made its save. No negative effects other than losing a turn till the ice could be broken out of.
This allowed the Witch to be much more useful, but it didn't break the game. It could only be used once/encounter against an enemy.
Until.
The witch gained an ability to re-use a hex. So... the witch could use the hex twice against the same enemy.
I figured I'd roll with that. In the second matchup with the party- Ilthuliak spent the most of the time frozen in ice. As soon as she'd escape, she'd be hit by all the characters in turn, then encased in ice again. I was a bit concerned with that, but I figured it could be worked around.
And here's where the dispute came in.
Tarlaxian- the Linnorm- has freedom of movement. I ruled that Tarlaxian is immune to Ice tomb because the point of the linnorm is that it can't be tangled up in anything.
This led to anger. The witch accused me of hating and trying to sabotage the character because Ice tomb is the "only" useful thing the witch has, and the witch threatened to leave because I was not treating the character fairly. Other players rallied to defend the witch and insisted that because I ruled that ice tomb worked like X in the past, that it should work like X and that Paizo wrote a very unclear ability.
My response: A. I'm the GM, I can change rules if they don't work; but B. I'm not changing the rules here- Tarlaxian has freedom of movement- he's not like Ilthuliak. Freedom of Mvt. is a different circumstance and without it- then it's IMPOSSIBLE to counter Ice Tomb.
Their response was that it makes no sense that freedom of movement could protect someone from being encased in ice. My response: Freedom of Mvt. protects against web spells, and an ice tomb is like a web. They were not buying it.
At risk of a walk out of players, I assented and allowed the dragon to be encased in ice. The dispute took between 10-15 minutes, so a relatively short dispute as far as these things go historically in my group- but it escalated fast.
My best guess at countering this in the future is to have multiple enemies, one of which can break the ice tomb. Thankfully one player posited that solution for me.
At this point, I can't have a solo enemy face the characters without getting ganked before it can do ANYTHING, due to this short-sighted ruling I made on Ice Tomb that my players now refuse to let me change.
CURRENT:
Currently, the players are fleeing Tarlaxian. If they escape and return, I could have them face Tarlaxian solo, but I think they'll nuke him fairly fast and the battle would be relatively straightforward. Therefore, I am likely to go with Option B, which is similar to what Orthos suggested above (thank you).
Option B is to have Tarlaxian join the very battered Ilthuliak's retreat into the House itself, don't heal Ilthuliak much... and throw the ghost encounter at the players. My understanding is that this battle will be grueling, but winnable, especially if they focus on downing Ilthuliak first.
Re: Phillip Knowsley:
>>Never forget that spells are per day...if they haven't gone a whole day,
It really won't matter how much they rest - they won't get new spells.
Is there a citation for the definition of day as in spells per day?
I see this: "A wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Wizard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells)."
But there's no definition of "Day" and I'm fairly sure the players have been interpreting it as 8 hours. Especially when the rest rules you linked to state that a wizard gets their spells back after 8 hours.
Thank you for the link to the Resting rules.
>>Run it so that it's not 1 20 second interruption (besides that fact that
the PCs couldn't & wouldn't immediately fall back asleep. They'd be wary
or amped up for another 15-30mins before turning in again.), send in a
2nd & then 3rd wave of annoyances. Common tactic in too many wars to mention.
I will give the multiple waves tactic a try if the players attempt to rest. I foresee some controversy here, because the players will insist they can fall asleep immediately, but I will give it a try.
Re: Rickmeister:
>>First of all, sorry to hear about your group. Really!
Thank you!
Re: Suthainn:
>>Speaking of which, I am unsure and wasn't able to find anything about whether the DR would also stop the blood drain, I know it wouldn't stop a (Su) ability drain but (Ex) like Stirges have has no magic behind it, would it have any effect? By my reading of RAW the attack deals 0 damage, this damage does not get past the DR 20/Magic so no blood drain takes place since the ability is (Ex) and non magical in nature.
That is an interesting question.
Re: Orthos
Thank you for your passionate response. I showed the fly/hover rules to the group and they agreed that the dragons could hover! Your advice was very helpful in both maintaining game flow and in maintaining challenge.
(Orthos said:)
>>Nope. A caster needs a full night of uninterrupted rest (8 hours for most races, 4 for elves) followed by an hour of meditation or study to prepare their spells or spell slots for the day. A late-night interruption means they have to start completely over.
That sounds helpful; where does it state that a late night interruption means they need to start over? I do not see that on this page: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard
>>If they're AOEing her they're having to deal with her SR.
Thank you!
Before you mentioned that, I had no idea SR applied to AoE spells.http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Spell-Resistanc e
We will need to start playing like that. That may also do a good deal to countering their statements that Casters are completely overpowered. Casters are powerful... but it seems like we've been playing in a way as to make them *too* powerful.
>>Is he a melee or ranged rogue? If melee, he can't get to her thanks to her anti-life shell until it's dispelled or she dismisses it or does something to force it away.
He is a melee rogue.
>>They don't want a challenge. They want to curbstomp everything without opposition.
That sounds about right. What makes it odd is that the fights they still talk about today are the ones that I challenged them a great deal so that they had to pull out all the stops to succeed. The fights that were standard are quickly forgotten, but Vordakai's lair is well remembered.
>>Best of luck to you.
Thank you again very much.
So, back to Nyrissa.
My players thankfully provided me a little insight into their endgame plan. They understand that I don't have as firm a grasp on the rules as they do, so about a year ago, they promised that they'd let me know ahead of time if they're going to try any rule-complicated things. They have been true to their word in helping me with that.
I am always happy when they plan things out in detail. And I would like to reward the player who put forth this plan...especially since the Rogue hasn't been able to do too much damage to enemies in previous sessions. (The ones who often shine are the Ranger, the Wizard, the Druid, and now (because of reasons noted above) the Witch, whose misfortune ability amplifies the character's utility); the ones who could use a bit more "hero" time are the Rogue and the Oracle.
My only concern with this plan is that it might lead to Nyrissa not being able to act at all.
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Is the following generally legal?
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1. Party plans to cast some long-term casting spells, like Heroism, Bestow Insight, etc. ahead of time since they figure they'll know where her throne room is.
2. Druid has a spell that allows someone to reroll their check once to try to succeed again. (can cast it twice I believe).
3. Rogue plans to cast 9th level scrolls without a caster level check. Prayer Beads should get the rogue to be able to cast Time Stop without a caster check.
4. Rogue plans to cast Time stop, get next to the Fey Queen. Ignore all else. (The party has SEVERAL time stop scrolls).
And here's where the plan gets odd.
5. Plans to put glue on self, stick self to the Queen, then try to blind her physically or with a spell. Then activate a scroll of anti-magic field.
-
My possible counters:
1. Decoy Nyrissa. Phlomada pretends she's Nyrissa... this is a little cheap... and given that my players said what they were going to do, this might lead to resentment.
2. Nyrissa has mirror image up. Will he know which one to attack? At least this might delay him.
3. Nyrissa has antilife shell... that should repel this plan of attack, right?
What I'm thinking is they cast detect magic, figure out she has the shell and will try to dispel it. Will that give her enough turns to be useful?
4. Your Queen is in another Castle.
There are several places where the PCs may be teleported in the fable- I could put things in them to use up resources and to distract them or I could make the pocket dimensions a lot bigger, so they have to wander around.
5. Retracting wall... this seems like it will be challenged as illegal. I actually just invented it. Fey queen is on a raised platform and has fly on. There is a wall between her and the players. When one mook stands on the pressure plate, the wall is up, when the mook is off the plate, it's down. Fey Queen has another mook who can disable the process from the inside (so players can't pull this same cheese on her).
Players go- have to break down wall to hit her if they win initiative. Mook lowers wall. Fey queen goes, shoots players. Mook2 causes Wall to go back up.
Is there anything like this that I can analogize to the rules?
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I am thinking that 2,3,4 are the better ones to go with, but 5 seems like it would be fun.
QUESTION
1. The party is going to walk in and cast detect magic on nyrissa. On what roll of detect magic do I need to tell them that she has an Antilife shell?
2. The party is going to toss some dispel magics... would antilife shell be the first to fall? I assume that it would.
Also, can dispel magic work through a glass wall or a full wall if you have an idea of where the target may be (e.g. as an AOE).
3. What would be the consequences if the antimagic field that the rogue has planned goes off?
Several ideas to aid you here. Going to just type them as I think of them :)
1° The house at the edge of time... TIME... I would be very evil, and cause "time stop" to work against the players. I mean, Nyrissa actually never thought of using her powers in that way, but to stop time would be something she's eager to use.. To mock the players.
2° The icetomb thing was...
>>Well, your players are whin(e)y female dogs, and they should have taken the ruling. Have the dragon say something like "A dragon is too hot to encase in ice, you sily witch. Please jump of the bridge my dear." before continueing to attack.
>> Other evil solution I use to keep my players in check, if they refuse to let me do this to up and ante the roleplay: Simply mark the damage the dragon is receiving after being ganked in a different column, and 'forget' to add this to its total. Yes, you were succesful, but in game terms I still do what I want to ;)
>> Oh, and your players should complain less. You try hard, and they complain when ONE of their MANY shiny toys is not working. Boo frikking hoo!
3° As a general rule: Never put up a single solo, especially at higher levels. Something I even do with my players is inform them that this is a solo encounter, but to spice things up the solo receives 2 rounds per round, as to spice things up.
4° Rogue uses sovereign glue? Well, be ready to get eaten alive in a few rounds as she uses all her attacks to simply go through his hitpoints in 2 rounds.
A bold move I would allow, but not if they are being such d*cks .
5° Mirror image, decoy, silent image, antilife shell: They shouldn't be angry Nyrissa is addepting, as they are in *her* world, and she heard in advance what the party was planning. Being up in the air also helps as the party enters the throne room.
6° Detect magic is a 60 foot cone, and it takes 3 rounds to concentrate on a single spell, don't forget that. So simply have all spells ready by school (divination, abjuration, etc) and go like this:
Player A: "I use detect magic."
DM: You succeed, round 1.
Player A: "I focus on her."
DM: You succeed, round 2. You notice abjuration, divination, ... spells
Player A: I focus on the divination spells.
DM: "You succeed. You notice she has spell X and Y on her." The other types you have no idea, but you can continue to focus.
7° Dispel magic is written quite clearly, look it up. If I recall correctly, the caster makes a caster level check, and you go down the list of the spels active on her, from the top (hghest level) down. The first one that is of lower DC than the caster check is unravelled.
OR
You can specifically say "I want to dispel that magic spell, in which case you need to succeed at the DC for dispelling that spell.
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6° Detect magic is a 60 foot cone, and it takes 3 rounds to concentrate on a single spell, don't forget that. So simply have all spells ready by school (divination, abjuration, etc) and go like this:
Player A: "I use detect magic."
DM: You succeed, round 1.
Player A: "I focus on her."
DM: You succeed, round 2. You notice abjuration, divination, ... spells
Player A: I focus on the divination spells.
DM: "You succeed. You notice she has spell X and Y on her." The other types you have no idea, but you can continue to focus.
Actually, detect magic is not able to identify specific spells cast on a target, only Schools and Strength of active spells/effects.
From http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-magic .
- You detect magical auras. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.
- 1st Round: Presence or absence of magical auras.
- 2nd Round: Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura.
- 3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.) If the aura emanates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft).
- Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras.
- Aura Strength: An aura's power depends on a spell's functioning spell level or an item's caster level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more than one category, detect magic indicates the stronger of the two.
The only spell (that I can remember) that actually tells you what spells are active on a person is Arcane Sight, Greater . which is a 7th level spell.
One could house rule with a good spellcraft check, you can also determine the spell on a subject with detect magic or Arcane Sight. But that is up to a DM.
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So, back to Nyrissa.
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Is the following generally legal?
---1. Party plans to cast some long-term casting spells, like Heroism, Bestow Insight, etc. ahead of time since they figure they'll know where her throne room is.
2. Druid has a spell that allows someone to reroll their check once to try to succeed again. (can cast it twice I believe).
3. Rogue plans to cast 9th level scrolls without a caster level check. Prayer Beads should get the rogue to be able to cast Time Stop without a caster check.
4. Rogue plans to cast Time stop, get next to the Fey Queen. Ignore all else. (The party has SEVERAL time stop scrolls).
And here's where the plan gets odd.
5. Plans to put glue on self, stick self to the Queen, then try to blind her physically or with a spell. Then activate a scroll of anti-magic field.
1. Nothing wrong with pre-buffing if Nyrissa gives them the time to do that.
2. Valid spell.
3. I am confused on how this can happen. How does prayer beads allow a rogue to not need a caster level check to activate a scroll? I must be missing something.
4. Yeah, time stop won't help when Antilife Shell is up. Remember, if they get the antilife shell down, and then try Time Stop, the rogue can not attack Nyrissa or the spell ends. I would argue the glue move is a grapple attack of sorts, and not usable while the spell is active. The best he can do is get next to her and be ready to strike when the spell ends.
5. Creative i guess. I am not sure how I would handle this yet...
As far as handling the fight with your knowledge of their tactics, I wouldn't add or change anything in the fight that specifically negates their plan. That would ruin the "trust" your players have put in you by giving the plan ahead of time, even if they don't deserve it. Instead, plan the encounter as you think it needs to be to be a challenge, and prepare from a rules perspective what the ,very intelligent, Nyrissa will do to counteract their plans in real time.
>>Nope. A caster needs a full night of uninterrupted rest (8 hours for most races, 4 for elves) followed by an hour of meditation or study to prepare their spells or spell slots for the day. A late-night interruption means they have to start completely over.That sounds helpful; where does it state that a late night interruption means they need to start over? I do not see that on this page: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard
I can't PFSRD from work, but you'll need to look at the resting and regaining spells rules, not the Wizard class, because the rules apply to all spellcasters and therefore wouldn't (or shouldn't) be sequestered away on one class's page.
Hopefully someone else can find those rules and link them since I can't.
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Long story short, when the players complain you're making things difficult, just remind them where they are. FINAL DUNGEON. Compare it to video games if you have to. Players shouldn't expect to breeze through the final dungeon of a video RPG (compare Kefka's Tower, Northern Crater, The Black Omen, Mars Lighthouse, The Source Stone, The Fortress of Regrets, or whatever game you think will be most recognizable to the group); they shouldn't likewise expect The House at the End of Time to be a pushover (especially with a name like that!).
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3. Rogue plans to cast 9th level scrolls without a caster level check. Prayer Beads should get the rogue to be able to cast Time Stop without a caster check.4. Rogue plans to cast Time stop, get next to the Fey Queen. Ignore all else. (The party has SEVERAL time stop scrolls).
And here's where the plan gets odd.
5. Plans to put glue on self, stick self to the Queen, then try to blind her physically or with a spell. Then activate a scroll of anti-magic field.
Not sure how the Prayer Beads help, presuming he's using the +4CL ability of them... he still needs a UMD check unless he has a class that lets him cast Divine spells and has Time Stop on the spell list.
Bear in mind that her Blinding Beauty will still be in effect the entire time if he is looking at her.
Also, should he somehow get past the Antilife Shell...
While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.
Attempting to glue himself to Nyrissa is either a grapple check or a touch attack as you rule (neither will be easy with Touch AC 34 and CMD of 48), that's an attack, he can attempt it once the Time Stop wears off but not during the spell.
Edit: Definitely a grapple check.
The glue takes 1 round to set. If the objects are pulled apart (a move action) before that time has elapsed, that application of the glue loses its stickiness and is worthless.
Also note that the glue has a strong transmutation aura, implying it is magic and might not work in an antimagic zone.
Unless he has Improved Grapple he's also provoking attacks of opportunity from her AND trying to blind her sounds like using the Dirty Trick maneuver, again requiring a CMD check and provoking unless he has Improved Dirty Trick. If they invested all these feats and materials in the plan however and can get past the Antilife shell... let them try it!
Trying to cast a scroll whilst glued to someone will most certainly provoke an attack of opportunity, Laughing Touch might be a good one to use.
Also bear in mind she can cast Greater Teleport and Dimension Door, so on his action the rogue attempts to grappleglue himself to her (and we'll say is successful) and can't use the scroll of Antimagic the same turn, on her action... she casts Dimension Door. The rogue might find himself alone with her somewhere in the house... say hello to a Dominated Rogue minion! Her concentration check to cast Dim. Door whilst grappled should be easy to make as well, she's rolling d20 +30 vs 14+ the rogues CMB.
*stuff*
Thanks =) It's been a long time since I've looked at those rules since I don't have a group that's prone to cheesing this kind of thing.
Thank you; this is a lot of good information that I am going to have to read through, ponder, and absorb.
Re: Adumbration:
Thank you for the clarification re: Detect Magic. I'd been telling the auras on round one and the specific spells on round two because the player was rolling very high Spellcrafts. I did not realize the Spellcraft testing thing was a house rule, I thought it was another rule that I just heretofore couldn't find. That solves my concern about Detect Magic revealing too much!
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Another thought came to me during the day though, so if I may ask one other question:
-Spell Resistance v. Witches Hexes... my understanding is that nothing has SR v. the Witches Hexes. Is that true? Is there any counter for Witches Hexes, like there is a counter for spells?
She has 51 AC with stupidy HIGH saves... i dont really think that a lv 14 party has much chance against her... no matter your stats, if you dont have high enough level to dispell her buffs, youre pretty much screwed!
She IS powerful... IMO even to the standard lv17 party.
The only hexes that should allow SR are the ones that are (Sp); the (Ex) and (Su) ones should not.
There are only two (Sp) hexes: Swamp Hag and Poison Steep, both of which don't attack, so SR is irrelevant in that case.
So for all intents and purposes, no, SR is not a defense against hexes.
THAT SAID, almost all hexes have saves, and most of them are Will saves. Nyrissa is a Fey with innate Druid casting and Sorcerer and Theurge levels - Will is her BEST save by FAR - +41! She won't be outright immune, but chances are you can blow the Hex DCs out of the water with a halfway decent roll.
What's your Witch's Hex DC, if you happen to know it off hand? I wouldn't be surprised if Nyrissa only fails on a 1.
Is a 1 an autofail like with attacks, and a 20 an autosuccess?
But, what Orthos said: +41 on her will save, so if she rolls say a 4 she has probably beaten the DC of just about any hex the witch has, no?
One thing to remember is that Nyrissa can observe anywhere in the house vicinity via the fable (even if the house is uprooted) so if they buff and try and enter she will know. In fact I am not sure (don’t have the book in front of me) that they can teleport into the extra-dimensional spaces of the tower (even if the house is uprooted). My players had several small assaults into the house and they got “lucky” on one and found the throne room and got to her that way. I think your players may be able to discern her location as “the tower” but be unable to teleport in. High level spell stuff gets complicated quickly and is not my strong point either. I second not having her be alone (especially if your PCs expect to stomp on her) Have Pho or Worm nearby. If they complain, explain to them that they didn’t spend time taking out her support…which should make sense to them. They “should” at least check out the house and reduce her support. Do they know that she considers herself an equal to the Eldest and hopes to join their ranks with her plan. She is no mere high level caster, she considers herself approaching demi-god. Do your players know this yet? Mine were scared to death of facing her.
Is a 1 an autofail like with attacks, and a 20 an autosuccess?
On saving throws yes.
It's skills and ability checks that 1/20 is not auto fail/succeed.
ALSO! A BIG ONE TO REMEMBER.
I imagine your Witch likes to use Cackle to keep hexes going, because what Witch doesn't? Especially the ones like Evil Eye (I think) that work even on a successful save but just have their duration reduced. Remember that Cackle only has a range of 30 feet! If the Witch isn't within 30 feet of the hexed target, Cackle does nothing.
RE DETECT MAGIC AND PLAYERS' PRE-KNOWLDEGE
>>6° Detect magic is a 60 foot cone, and it takes 3 rounds to concentrate on a single spell, don't forget that. So simply have all spells ready by school (divination, abjuration, etc) and go like this:
I explained my rulings on Detect magic to my players and my players further clarified what they were doing.
Apparently, as Adumbration proposed, the wizard has been using this instead: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/arcane-sight (Arcane Sight, Greater). And he'd been calling it "detect magic" and I'd been doing the weird spellcraft thing. So at least we set the rules straight there. I had been wrong, but it had been leading to essentially the right result.
So it seems that they'll know the queen has antilife shell before she gets to act.
Now, I think the wizard can only cast it once/day.
However,
The players currently assert that he has it Permanenced on him so therefore he knows all spells cast in a 120ft radius all the time. I'm not so sure that's the case, so we're looking into the situation. I suspect the wizard will assert that it is permanenced. I'm not entirely sure how he would have been able to do that. Apparently "At level 11, a Wizard can cast Permanency on Arcane Sight, making it, as the name suggests, permanent.... it's pretty much a given for any remotely competent Wizard". I will keep you posted.
PRAYER BEADS/ ROGUE'S ATTACK PLAN
>>3. I am confused on how this can happen. How does prayer beads allow a rogue to not need a caster level check to activate a scroll? I must be missing something.
Adumbration, thank you.
What the player is doing, is he only bought the bead of karma: "Bead of Karma (Standard string of prayer beads minus beads of healing and smiting),"
>>The power of a special bead is lost if it is removed from the strand. Reduce the price of a strand of prayer beads that is missing one or more beads by the following amounts: bead of blessing –600 gp, bead of healing –9,000 gp, bead of karma –20,000 gp, bead of smiting –16,800 gp, bead of summons –20,000 gp, bead of wind walking –46,800 gp.
>>Bead of karma Wearer casts his spells at +4 caster level. Effect lasts 10 minutes.
>>Not sure how the Prayer Beads help, presuming he's using the +4CL ability of them... he still needs a UMD check unless he has a class that lets him cast Divine spells and has Time Stop on the spell list.
The karma bead gets his caster level up +4 levels.
He maxed his Use Magic Device.He is level 15 now.
He has skill expertise Use Magic Device.
I haven't checked the math, (once again, in progress) but he asserts this takes him up high enough to cast 9th level scrolls without a caster level check.
I guess that would get him there even without being a class that can cast divine spells? He's a straight rogue.
>>Unless he has Improved Grapple he's also provoking attacks of opportunity from her AND trying to blind her sounds like using the Dirty Trick maneuver, again requiring a CMD check and provoking unless he has Improved Dirty Trick. If they invested all these feats and materials in the plan however and can get past the Antilife shell... let them try it!
Now something that he asked last week makes sense to me :(
I think he's planning to grapple WHILE time stop is on.
Except he says it isn't grapple.
As he states: "Still Timestopped: Apply Glue to self (skin, specifically, so clothing cannot be shuffled out of).. Stick self to Queen (being particularly careful to leave hands free). If necessary, apply both vials. If possible, a way to blind her or cause another condition would be nice, but entirely unexpected. Let set 1 round. Once glue is set, use scroll of anti-magic field. Timestop immediately ends."
SPELLCASTER REST
I don't believe spellcasters need to completely start over if interrupted - it instead adds 1 hour to the rest they need to take. See the Preparing Wizard Spells, Rest section of the PRD.
Thank you!
We had a discussion about spellcaster rest.One fellow in the group said that in 3.5 rules, you had to reset the rest clock; another was arguing you don't need to add any time to rest; the group was surprised when I pulled out a citation to the quick rule :)
>>Divine spells also have the 8-hour recent casting limitation:
And that is going to do a lot to adjust the group's concern that the Druid could cast spells with impunity. Since the druid hadn't needed to rest to gain spells, the Druid had just been on the majority of watch duties in the past (I think he took 5 hours sleep).
BLINDING BEAUTY
Bear in mind that her Blinding Beauty will still be in effect the entire time if he is looking at her.
I see that it's an Aura.
I also see that it's supernatural. "Blinding Beauty (Su)"If he does fail his check on that though, how do I counter this argument.
He fails his check but acts before her or she has only taken a 5ft move.
His response : "I run straight ahead where I was going and I do the same thing."
My response would be if she hasn't moved- I can't really deny him the right to do that type of attack.
If she took a 5ft step before he acted- I'd make him roll a 50/50 and then I'd make him roll for the usual mirror image check. (I intend to have mirror image up).
RICKMEISTER
>>Is a 1 an autofail like with attacks, and a 20 an autosuccess?
Yes for attacks.
I think I might posit that a 20 on a save would allow players to negate the Ice Tomb's 20 hardness as well- in that case the ice tomb itself fell apart. If that comes up, I'll give it a shot>>>> Other evil solution I use to keep my players in check, if they refuse to let me do this to up and ante the roleplay: Simply mark the damage the dragon is receiving after being ganked in a different column, and 'forget' to add this to its total. Yes, you were succesful, but in game terms I still do what I want to ;)
Not a bad solution, and I can and will use that to some extent but the players reverse-engineer hitpoints and they complain if they think I've done something wonky with HP.
I've often had to justify after the fact when I boost up HP. (This is normal HP boosting during design/planning, not boosting mid-fight to hurt the players, but boosting when I've thought- oh, monster X will go down in 1 round if I don't give it 50 more HP.)
Longer Explanation in Spoiler:
Now, of course, Paizo usually doesn't add max HP, so I note that bit of discretion when there are player issues (e.g. I added more HP b/c paizo didn't give the max to the enemy for the HD and this particular enemy has max HD) or I state that I added a constitution point, etc., but I receive no end of complaints when the players don't think the HP is equivalent to HD. The players also reverse-engineer the CR from the hit dice and have often complained when they don't think it adds up.
>>4° Rogue uses sovereign glue? Well, be ready to get eaten alive in a few rounds as she uses all her attacks to simply go through his hitpoints in 2 rounds.
A bold move I would allow, but not if they are being such d*cks .
That's a decent argument.
Question though: there's no way the Rogue could argue Nyrissa should only get one attack because she's grappled? His plan, as I understand it, is that by sovereign gluing himself, he gets a bonus to grapple or he auto grapples. So, I may need to explain why she can get her full attacks off on him.
Also 2. Assuming she kills him. Would that get rid of an antimagic field cast on him... I don't think it would.
WITCH HEX DC
>>What's your Witch's Hex DC, if you happen to know it off hand? I wouldn't be surprised if Nyrissa only fails on a 1.
The Hex DC is a 24.
Thank you also for the clarity re: cackling.
SCRYING/DETECTING WHERE NYRISSA IS:
Okay... I'm foreseeing the players attempting to Scry and Blast on Nyrissa. As I explain in session update below, I don't think they can, short of a wish.
SESSION UPDATE:
Had another session. Not much happened. Players gave me their purchase lists and 4 of the 6 players are now level 15 due to the end of the kingdom building turns/epic war phase (we played out the war with Nyrissa's fey with kingdom armies- each fey "day" was a different fey army that marauded around their territory. Many allies fell, but ultimately the players pulled through). Players spent nearly two hours buffing for a dragon fight and resurrecting the dead Ranger and recovering his gear. Players then went in search of the hiding dragons and met my two Mirage Arcanas. One was a castle illusion on top of a Temporal Stasis Sphere. Players ignored that because the dragons went into the Hut. Players entered the hut and were concerned about the vines... Vines were assassin vines, but the Ranger killed the dangerous ones with a barrage... just in time to anger the ghosts who proceeded to bang PCs heads against the wall and to panic 3 of them. We left off at that point, just as the dragons were about to get into the fight.
One issue of controversy and something I had trouble clarifying. Players insisted that the Mirage Arcana should be dispelled because the Wizard had Greater Arcane Sight up and becuase they passed the illusory doorway... I think they were correct. BUT the players are also having trouble with another issue that I'm perhaps not explaining well. I said the house is essentially merged with a castle (which is what I understand the book says) and they're floating on top of each other in a weird symmetry of geometry. Players complain that the rules don't support that. I explain that Paizo changed the rules.
They were annoyed and insisted on knowing if this is a demiplane or not.
My understanding is that the entire fey kingdom is on another plane (I know as per the adventure as written, the fey hut is supposed to crash in the real world, but I kept it in Nyrissa's realm). I also know that the Fable is in a demiplane/pocket dimension from that plane, thus no scrying on Nyrissa is permitted from within the Hut.
They also keep insisting that fey creatures can't be resurrected on the plane because they're outsiders. I think I've dealt with that by saying that it's special rules for this adventure- but they're NOT happy about that. (I told them of the resurrection rule to prevent a battle later- if they know about it, they can plan for it and they'll be less upset if it causes them trouble).
Good point. Shame on me for not seeing that last line.
Unlike arcane sight, this spell cannot be made permanent with a permanency spell.
...Don't know why my players were insisting that the greater version could also be permananced. And once again shame on me for not seeing that last line.
Greater Arcane Sight cannot be made permanent; Arcane Sight can, but will not identify spells in place. Also, Dispel Magic will dispel a permanent spell.
2nd, a Rouge does not have a caster level, nor does he need to make a caster level check to cast a spell from a scroll, so a bead of karma does nothing. To cast a 9th level spell from a scroll he need only make a DC 29 (20 + lv) UMD check. If he does not have a 19 WIS (or INT for arcane scrolls) he must also make a DC 34 (15 + score) UMD check to emulate the necessary ability score.
Just FYI, the Emulate Class Ability function of UMD is not used for scrolls, nor can it be used.
3rd, Time Stop prohibits interaction with other creatures while it's in effect. You cannot attack (combat maneuvers, such as grapple, are attacks) a creature while Time Stopped.
4th, the Grappled condition does not prevent full attacks.
Quantum Steve-
Thank you.
I am going to do more research on your second point (e.g. checking the Rogue's stats and checking the rules based on the 'key terms' you mention).
re point 4- thank you.
re point 3-
Thank you. The player apparently, however, has a backup plan. If not allowed to stick self to the queen, the new plan is to apply sovereign glue to a sack, place the sack over her head, cast the scroll antimagic field; then when time resumes, gravity will resume and the sack will fall on her head- blinding her and nullifying her magic.
Now, rules-wise, even if gravity does not apply I would be tempted to say that if this is allowed, the sack will not fall until the rogue's next turn (rather than the fey queen's). Does that seem appropriate?
What I'm thinking is that the rogue has to hold on to the sack and can't drop it or let go of it until after time stop ends? (thus, on his turn as a free action) I'm not really seeing the rule that gravity doesn't apply when time stop is on. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/time-stop
Therefore, if Nyrissa moves before him, he wouldn't be able to drop the sack. And I can't see how she wouldn't move before him.
But, I can anticipate his response- time stop permits interaction with objects... and objects can be placed and are moving very slow... so gravity doesn't apply to the objects once he releases them. Therefore, when he picks it up- real rules of physics applies, but when he drops it in the air, it goes back into Time Stopped time.
I suppose the other question is:
Can you cast AntiMagic Field While you are under the effects of Timestop?
I'll admit, I am impressed with his detailed thinking process. He clearly cares about the situation a great deal. Given that the party of 6 is now level 15, but effectively operates at level 17/18, and this is one of their more effective weapons against Nyrissa; I may just let him try this...but I might make Nyrissa effectively unreachable somehow for a few rounds first so they can enjoy cursing her name.
They also keep insisting that fey creatures can't be resurrected on the plane because they're outsiders.
No, that's BS. They're Fey. Fey and Outsiders are two completely different types.
A fey is a creature with supernatural abilities and connections to nature or to some other force or place. Fey are usually human-shaped.
A fey has the following features.
d6 Hit Die.
Base attack bonus equal to 1/2 total Hit Dice (slow progression).
Good Reflex and Will Saves.
Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for fey: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Fly, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nature), Perception, Perform, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim, Use Magic Device.Traits: A fey possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
Low-light vision.
Proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Fey not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Fey are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Fey breathe, eat, and sleep.
Nothing in there about inability to be revived, unlike:
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.
An outsider has the following features.
d10 Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
Two good saving throws, usually Reflex and Will.
Skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for outsiders: Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth. Due to their varied nature, outsiders also receive 4 additional class skills determined by the creature's theme.Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
Darkvision 60 feet.
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
Relevant text bolded. Note how it is not present in the Fey description.
Regardless of full plane, demiplane, or on the Material, Fey can be revived just fine.
And if it's being revived because of the House's special time effect rather than someone casting a spell on it, it doesn't even matter - even Outsiders will be brought back that way. The House isn't using a spell effect. IT'S REWINDING TIME.
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re point 3-
Thank you. The player apparently, however, has a backup plan. If not allowed to stick self to the queen, the new plan is to apply sovereign glue to a sack, place the sack over her head, cast the scroll antimagic field; then when time resumes, gravity will resume and the sack will fall on her head- blinding her and nullifying her magic.
Not a bad use of Timestop. The glue will still need a round to stick, but this will at least require Narissa to spend a move action removing the sack. On the other hand, this is essentially a Dirty Trick combat maneuver which is not allowed during a time stop.
n any case, the sovereign glue still needs a round to set, and the round needs to be outside the Timestop, i.e. the glue cannot set until Timestop expires. Making sure Narissa can't remove the glue before it sets will be tricky.
Also, don't forget if Narissa does get in a jam, she can always Dimension Door to a different part of the Fable until; she can regain the upper hand.
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Remember all of this also presupposes they can get past the Antilife shell, if they don't dispel it all the rogues planning is for nothing as he still can't approach her.
Quantum Steve has the right of it re: the casting from scrolls, the +4CL is irrelevant as the rogue doesn't have a CL, he's using UMD entirely at the numbers given.
Whilst I applaud the 'clever' tactics they're trying to use they're also trying to exploit spells to allow things they specifically forbid. Timestop doesn't allow any form of attack or interaction with another creature, no hugs, no gently pressing against, no physical interaction, if they ask 'how?' then say something like 'you are outside the stream of time, there is literally a bubble of time between you and other creatures stopping any contact WHATSOEVER' would be my suggestion.
Re: Dropping the bag over her, try holding a shopping bag over your head and let go, chances are it just flops down and doesn't neatly drop to cover your head, he's trying to get a dirty trick attack for free, what does Time Stop say about attacks? NOPE! I'd probably be happy to give him a +4 or better on his CMB attempt with planning like that but it's *still* an attack he has to perform on his turn. Regardless, they clearly would have the drop on her so I think Nyrissas first action should be Dim Door (remove bag if needed), gather reinforcements, return to face PCs prepped and fully ready.
Bear in mind that she can observe every single room in her House simultaneously as if via clairvoyance/clairaudience, so ANYTHING the players say or do inside the house... she knows. If they discuss this plan at all whilst in the house, she will know ahead of time.
Edit: Holy crap! Never realised this before, she doesn't need to use Dim Door to leave.
Exiting the Fable: Once the PCs enter the Fable, they can exit it simply by touching any solid surface within the room and making a mental picture of the room from which they originally entered the Fable. Exiting the Fable in this manner is a move-equivalent action.
So she can just vanish by using a move action to send herself to any of the Fable entrances at your choice. Heal/buff/gather allies as you decide then return.