"And speaking of the merits, drafting legislation is an immensely complicated task that involves putting together a coalition of supporters. Gay civil rights legislation would be stalled or effectively killed in many places if transgenders were included. The choice is often between a more inclusive bill that goes nowhere and a less inclusive bill that actually becomes law. It is not "transphobic" to make this point; it is pragmatic,"I decided my gut instinct about not trusting those trying to forge a gay mainstream was right on the money.
Also, Musical Interlude
Well, that's just your anti-incrementalist tendencies showing. Not saying you're wrong, you just never trust an incrementalist.
I like how you made that point without including the "Vive le Galt!" part of the quote.
Gay, Straight, Black, White (and Trans and Bi and [objectionable term] and everybody else)
Same Struggle, Same Fight,
Workers of the World, Unite!
Vive le Galt!
I think more stuff needs a cis slapped on the front of it.
cisbacon for instance.
Anything to help renew young peoples' interest in Latin, sez I.
Just goes to prove the Myth of Progress.
I've always thought that the struggle for rights of various gender/sexual identities will always be easier than those of different ethnic groups. Just for the fact that rarely will you arrive to family dinner to suddenly discover one of your family members is black.
Gay, Bi, Trans, etc, will always be a small portion of the population, but they're present in all groups regardless of economics, ethnicity, religion, etc.
I can join you in the Vive le Galt! if you wish, though my meaning will be much different than yours.
I can join you in the Vive le Galt! if you wish, though my meaning will be much different than yours.
That's fine; slogans always sound better when chanted in unison.
Hey Comrade Jeff, our comments came back!
Passive-aggressive biznitching for the win!
I like to be aggressive-passive.
Completely off-topic, but it's a case I was following and it's an article from the commie site that Comrade Slaad linked above:
Massachusetts labor movement intervenes for school bus drivers
I have many, many disagreements with the comrades at Workers World (or, in the lingo of ultraleft sectarians, the Marcyites), but I've always admired their members in USW Local 8751.
Reinstate the School Bus 4 with Back Pay!
For commie-controlled unions everywhere!
Vive le Galt!
[Pokes thread]
So, guys and gals and anyone else, what's Critical Race theory?
I'd look it up myself, but I'm lazy.
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It's when you're trying to determine your race and you roll a 20. Make the DC on the next roll, and you get to choose a Critical Race, like Bodhisattva or Nephilim.
Speaking seriously, I think it's when you sort of parse the difference between racism on an individual level vs racism on a societal level. (Like whether you join the KKK 'cause you actually are a white power nut-job, or because it's a status symbol the 1950s South. Whoops, this example alone is going to get my post flagged!)
From Wikipedia: "[Critical Race Theory] recognizes that racism is engrained in the fabric and system of the American society. The individual racist need not exist to note that institutional racism is pervasive in the dominant culture. This is the analytical lens that CRT uses in examining existing power structures. CRT identifies that these power structures are based on white privilege and white supremacy, which perpetuates the marginalization of people of color."
In other words, the existence of racism -- and specifically white supremacy -- is assumed in any discourse irrespective of the question of whether any evidence for racism can be found.
So I had that wrong.
But actually reading the wikipedia article, I think it's important to note that CRT "began as a reaction to critical legal studies." So, no insult, we're talking about something that's only really relevant within the US court system.
('Cause at first I was all, "How could there even be societal racism without indivIdual racists?" but the legal system actually could provide the means, IMO.)
So I had that wrong.
But actually reading the wikipedia article, I think it's important to note that CRT "began as a reaction to critical legal studies." So, no insult, we're talking about something that's only really relevant within the US court system.
Not really, for several reasons. The first is that it's not even really relevant in the US court system.
More generally, though, although critical race theory originated in legal scholarship, its practitioners apply it much more widely. After all, if you can imagine racism embedded inside the legal system, it's just as easy to imagine racism embedded outside the legal system, or indeed anywhere else.
Not to derail the thread, but given the discrepancy of race in US prison population, you wouldn't say CRT is relevant to the US Court system?
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"Doctor there's a cis heterosexual non african american non latino non female with no tattoos that possesses a right leg, possesses a left leg, possesses a left arm, and all of his hair.....
"So we have a white guy who's Right arm got chopped off....oh wait he bled to death while you were explaining everything."
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Not to derail the thread, but given the discrepancy of race in US prison population, you wouldn't say CRT is relevant to the US Court system?
Nope. When you start by assuming you already know the answer, you've assumed yourself into irrelevance.
There's a very interesting sociology research project in determining why there is a racial discrepancy in the US prison population. The project that starts by assuming that the answer is systematic racism is not it, largely because there's a very good chance that assumption is out-of-the-box wrong.
From Wikipedia: "[Critical Race Theory] recognizes that racism is engrained in the fabric and system of the American society. The individual racist need not exist to note that institutional racism is pervasive in the dominant culture. This is the analytical lens that CRT uses in examining existing power structures. CRT identifies that these power structures are based on white privilege and white supremacy, which perpetuates the marginalization of people of color."
In other words, the existence of racism -- and specifically white supremacy -- is assumed in any discourse irrespective of the question of whether any evidence for racism can be found.
That's it?
I mean, shiznit, I didn't need to go to grad school to figure that out!
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Turkey bacon, veggie bacon, cisbacon.
Orf, that's just doublespeak. I didn't assume anything, I asked you what your opinion was, and instead of answering, you just said assuming, assumed, assuming and assumption, until it sounded like you answered my question.
Andrew, I certainly won't claim I've met every single black person in the US, but given the number I have actually met who don't break the law, vs the prison population percentages, it just can't be a matter of the number of offenses committed by individuals.
Edit: Ouch, ninja'd too many times to even have a conversational flow!
So you mean it's about things like: It might be good to have some black judges, even if we're not sure the white ones are racist? Or, minorities should probably be represented on juries? Not that we're saying the white jurists are all racist.
Or how about for BNW, maybe we should be sure to include minorities in medical studies instead of just assuming the results for whites apply to everyone. Genetics do make a difference in some things.
The US student population is the largest outlier in behavioral studies. It is also the most commonly used group for research, so no one ever detected the discrepancy until the past decade, when some researchers were doing baseline tests in Indonesia and got unprecedented results.
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Orf, that's just doublespeak. I didn't assume anything, I asked you what your opinion was, and instead of answering, you just said assuming, assumed, assuming and assumption, until it sounded like you answered my question.
Re-read the summary. "[Critical Race Theory] recognizes that racism is engrained in the fabric and system of the American society."
You can't actually "recognize" a fact that's not true.... but the empirical evidence for that statement being true is extremely weak and controversial. Therefore, the only way that that pseudofact can be "recognized" is if it's true by assumption. In other words, that's an assumption inherent to the practice of CRT; if you're applying CRT, you're making that assumption.
It is, in fact, the "assuming, assumed, assuming, and assumption" that causes CRT to fail utterly as an intellectual practice. (I'm tempted to dust of Sokal and Bricmont's Intellectual Impostors here, but I'll just leave everyone else to do what reading they see fit.)
Andrew's point can be read, more generally, as a statement that there may be other causes for the prison population than pervasive racism. We actually have very good evidence for at least one instance of such a cause in the crack cocaine epidemic of the 1980s.
Until relatively recently, possession of "crack" cocaine was punishable under federal law much more harshly than possession of powdered cocaine, by a ratio of something like 100:1. Since crack cocaine was (empirically) associated with the black population of the inner cities, this must be racism, yes?
The problem is,... no, it wasn't. It was actually the black congressional caucus that pushed this disparity into law, because they considered that crack cocaine was a serious social issue and they wanted to provide a stronger deterrent to crack trafficking. (John McWhorter has a very good discussion of this point.) So this disparity was put in by a group of blacks in response to a specific need of the black community. That sounds to me not like racism, but like representative democracy working as designed (for once).
Of course, the immediate (and long-term) effect of these laws were that people selling crack cocaine, who were largely members of the black community selling to the black community, were sentenced to longer terms. They were also a higher priority for law enforcement, and they'd be less likely to be able to cut a deal with the prosecutors to avoid jail time. It's not surprising, then, that crack cocaine dealers would be overrepresented in the prison population relative to powder dealers. But that's not a result of racism.
It's intellectually bankrupt to attribute any differential effect of policy to "-ism." Sometimes the differential effects were deliberately invited by the affected communities. Sometimes they're consequences of other aspects of society -- poor people are overrepresented in prison in part because the law applies equally to people who steal loaves of bread, but for some reason only poor people bother to do that. Sometimes it's the result of other "-isms"; classism and racism blur together, and we can ask whether poor blacks are overrepresented in prison because they're black, or because they're poor.
Heck, poor black males, and in fact, males of any race or class, are overrepresented in prison. By the same logic that states that the black overrepresentation must be due to racism and black oppression, we've just proven that the USA is secretly a matriarchy and oppressing men. Obviously, this isn't the case. But this should give you an idea of the weakness of this kind of assumption-chasing reasoning.
Of course, traffic cameras in Maryland recorded that 17% of speeders were African American while 70% of speeding tickets were issued to African Americans, so obviously there is no racism in the system, right?
John McWhorter has a very good discussion of this point.)
"Tonry is bothered that the police focus on open-air drug dealing in black ghettoes rather than white kids dealing at parties and in dorms. You know what that’s about, right? But this is lazy history. The Congressional Black Caucus was vociferously behind the 1986 '100-to-1' law penalizing the possession of crack more severely than powdered cocaine. Fully aware that this would disproportionately affect black communities, they nonetheless sought to blunt the murderous violence that open-air drug selling entails." (Emphasis added)
Grandmaster Flash: 1983.
....its rejection of anaylsis, discourse, and objective data in favor of anecdote, narrative, and truthiness....
What about basing your argument on hip hop lyrics?
[Logs on to the public library system and starts requesting books by Kimberle Crenshaw]
I'm just glad that The Wolf of Wall Street is in the news right now; it gives me media relevance when I point out that white dudes who had graduated business school in the early 80's were buying cocaine by the, no exaggeration, briefcase load, and the white congressional caucus (oh, wait, we don't need one, white people just totally own congress) did absolutely nothing, and it all worked out fine.
It's almost as if there's a completely different legal standard in this country, depending on race or something!
(I guess we're still talking about the privilege part of the thread title, but maybe we should make an effort to turn the conversation back to the cis/trans divide?)
Orf, that's just doublespeak. I didn't assume anything, I asked you what your opinion was, and instead of answering, you just said assuming, assumed, assuming and assumption, until it sounded like you answered my question.Re-read the summary. "[Critical Race Theory] recognizes that racism is engrained in the fabric and system of the American society."
You can't actually "recognize" a fact that's not true.... but the empirical evidence for that statement being true is extremely weak and controversial. Therefore, the only way that that pseudofact can be "recognized" is if it's true by assumption. In other words, that's an assumption inherent to the practice of CRT; if you're applying CRT, you're making that assumption.
It is, in fact, the "assuming, assumed, assuming, and assumption" that causes CRT to fail utterly as an intellectual practice. (I'm tempted to dust of Sokal and Bricmont's Intellectual Impostors here, but I'll just leave everyone else to do what reading they see fit.)
Just curious, what term would you use for an institutional aspect that inadvertently favors one race over another?
For example, they did some analysis here in Minnesota, one of the things they found was that black families were more likely to suffer health effects from lead paint. One of the causes being that they were more likely to be renters and the programs for educating the public about lead paint had mostly been aimed at home owners. The intent behind that informational campaign wasn't racist, but it had a negative impact on black communities here.
Can you think of a clearer and more concise term than racism to describe negative impacts that are based on race?
I'm just glad that The Wolf of Wall Street is in the news right now; it gives me media relevance when I point out that white dudes who had graduated business school in the early 80's were buying cocaine by the, no exaggeration, briefcase load, and the white congressional caucus (oh, wait, we don't need one, white people just totally own congress) did absolutely nothing, and it all worked out fine.
It's almost as if there's a completely different legal standard in this country, depending on race or something!
Have to go search my archives for an article...
To keep you amused while you wait, Snobby quasi-Trotskyist cineaste doesn't like The Wolf of Wall Street
He also has talked shiznit about TWO Jennifer Lawrence movies in the past month. What a dick!
Don't know why I remembered this one or why I wanted to link as it tends to support McWhorter's point. Oh well.
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That made my head 'splode.I think he's accusing her of being an anti-cisstructuralist, and I'd assert that you feel that her comments are anti-cisscience. I think that that clarifies things a bit.Actually Todd's more accusing you of being an anti-structuralist. Which is fully supported by your anti-science comments.If you're going to accuse me of lying, then I am not really interested in continuing this conversation.You're mistaken, biology is my preferred field.If you say so.
cis'splode. Cmon. You know you want to say it.
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The something is money. A man can be sent to jail for life in New Jersey for robbing a pizza joint. A buisnessman who scams millions and deprives thousands of their life savings may never see jail time.
It's almost as if there's a completely different legal standard in this country, depending on race or something!
But it will cost them 1.8 points in the polls when they run for president, the poor guy!
Louis Proyect has been having a long-running feud with Joyce Brabner so I will overlook his nasty attack on Alan Moore who is God.
I haven't read any of the Black Dossier stuff, but if there's one man I trust to deal with racist tropes, it's Alan Moore.
But, as I said, I haven't read them yet.
Regardless, I encourage all of you to troll Louis Proyect.
Dude, keep up. We're talking about Critical Race theory now.
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Not to derail the thread, but given the discrepancy of race in US prison population, you wouldn't say CRT is relevant to the US Court system?if you discount the possibility of one group simply committing more offenses to end up in prison
Sorry Andrew, was working late tonight, I'll try to knock over a liquor store on the way home.
Not to derail the thread, but given the discrepancy of race in US prison population, you wouldn't say CRT is relevant to the US Court system?if you discount the possibility of one group simply committing more offenses to end up in prison
Its hard to sort out the interrelated forces of
Economics- If you're never going to make more than 8 dollars an hour AND your rent is sky high then all of a sudden risking it all to sell drugs actually becomes a logical choice. (which of course affects where you live)
Geography- If the cops wanted to bust my friends smoking pot they would have had to get out of the squad cars, get in a boat, and row out to an island in the middle of the hudson river. Urban areas (where african americans disproportionately live) have fewer places not to get caught.
Racism: It can directly influence the courts and/or it can act on the two factors above (and a myriad of other ones)
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Sorry Andrew, was working late tonight, I'll try to knock over a liquor store on the way home.Not to derail the thread, but given the discrepancy of race in US prison population, you wouldn't say CRT is relevant to the US Court system?if you discount the possibility of one group simply committing more offenses to end up in prison
sorry to hurt your feelings but truth is truth, if we are looking for a child molester odds are we are looking for a white guy. The sooner we grow up and start addressing why these trends exist instead of trying to ignore them the sooner we can do more to end it.
sorry to hurt your feelings but truth is truth, if we are looking for a child molester odds are we are looking for a white guy. The sooner we grow up and start addressing why these trends exist instead of trying to ignore them the sooner we can do more to end it.Sorry Andrew, was working late tonight, I'll try to knock over a liquor store on the way home.Not to derail the thread, but given the discrepancy of race in US prison population, you wouldn't say CRT is relevant to the US Court system?if you discount the possibility of one group simply committing more offenses to end up in prison
Well that one's easy, more white people.
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sorry to hurt your feelings but truth is truth, if we are looking for a child molester odds are we are looking for a white guy. The sooner we grow up and start addressing why these trends exist instead of trying to ignore them the sooner we can do more to end it.Sorry Andrew, was working late tonight, I'll try to knock over a liquor store on the way home.Not to derail the thread, but given the discrepancy of race in US prison population, you wouldn't say CRT is relevant to the US Court system?if you discount the possibility of one group simply committing more offenses to end up in prison
Well that one's easy, more white people.
Not sure if the number show a higher percent or just higher do to higher population for serial murder or child molestation among whites
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sorry to hurt your feelings but truth is truth, if we are looking for a child molester odds are we are looking for a white guy. The sooner we grow up and start addressing why these trends exist instead of trying to ignore them the sooner we can do more to end it.Sorry Andrew, was working late tonight, I'll try to knock over a liquor store on the way home.Not to derail the thread, but given the discrepancy of race in US prison population, you wouldn't say CRT is relevant to the US Court system?if you discount the possibility of one group simply committing more offenses to end up in prison
So you would have no problem with the cops showing up to your door to arrest you saying you match the description of a child molester based on nothing more than your race?
But isn't that part of the point of Critical Race Theory? A policy doesn't have to be designed to designed by racists, for racist reasons or implemented by racists, in order to be racist.
Yes. And it's why Critical Race Theory fails. Basically, if you assume that racism can be the primary cause behind everything despite having no causal efficacy whatsoever,...
Well, let me just say that few thinkers accept "Credo quia absurdum" or "Certum est, quia impossibile" any more. And that those particular beliefs have never been part of science or even secular scholarship, but only of theology.
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So you would have no problem with the cops showing up to your door to arrest you saying you match the description of a child molester based on nothing more than your race?sorry to hurt your feelings but truth is truth, if we are looking for a child molester odds are we are looking for a white guy. The sooner we grow up and start addressing why these trends exist instead of trying to ignore them the sooner we can do more to end it.Sorry Andrew, was working late tonight, I'll try to knock over a liquor store on the way home.Not to derail the thread, but given the discrepancy of race in US prison population, you wouldn't say CRT is relevant to the US Court system?if you discount the possibility of one group simply committing more offenses to end up in prison
On a related note, a quick Google search for "Stop and Frisk" turned up one hell of a horrifying first hit. :(