Knowledgeable Hireling Pricing for PFS GMs

[Mistwalker]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Andrei Buters wrote:

GM Lamplighter wrote:

BUT... there are ways the campaign could evolve to address this. Maybe allowing (for example) membership in the Pathfinder Society to be optional? Maybe the Society is just a faction in the campaign, like the Silver Crusade? Perhaps there could be some new vanities released which would allow different ways of improving knowledge skills? Perhaps joining a faction actually provided some template bonuses, such as (for example) extra ranks in Knowledge skills for members of the Pathfinder Society, extra ranks in Diplomacy for Silver Crusaders, etc.

Or maybe the retraining rules which allow you to add skill points and languages could be made PFS legal (although at a lower cost than the current retraining rules), letting players spend prestige to acquire remedial Pathfinder Training in things like Knowledge, Disable Device, Stealth, etc.

But please - let's do it by making our PC's into the heroes, and not by making them middle...

These are awesome suggestions and I really like the flavour angle of the training that the Grand Lodge provides. It would be awesome if Silver Crusade barbarians could learn about Religion, or Cheliax Hellknights are become talented in Knowledge: Planes. I imagine most Osiriani and Dwarven Pathfinders care deeply about History too.

The combat requirements of Acrobatics, Intimidate and Escape Artist are still in the system, but perhaps spending PP to 'patch up' a classes inability

Anyways, I have no problem with upgrading the vanities that already exist to create the function you are asking for.

I too like the idea of spending PP to gain extra skill points and perhaps class skills in knowledge (extra time studying).

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Shifty wrote:

How are you guys doing groups? DO you even have a conversation or is it some blind process where the game starts and you all put down your sheets like a poker game or something?

What happens when you have no healer or six fighters? Is there no conversation had at all about someone playing something different etc?

What if this whole thread wasn't "We didn't bother bringing any skill monkeys" and was "We didn't bring any melee, can we just hire cheap but level appropriate mercenaries?" - its the exact same thing.

Most people I gm for and play with, have one character per subtier with a few exceptions. So there aren't a ton of options to say, aha! No arcane, I got it!

I find that is much more prevalent with those who tend not to progress much past level 5, or those who play at least every week if not two or three times weekly and as such don't have any characters under level 7.

[nosig]

I've really only skimmed thru these posts, so please excuse me if I seem less than informed on the points of view here.

I think I'm on the other side of this coin. Most of my PCs bring skills to the table, many of them with marginal combat skills at best. I tend to build a number of PCs, and play those that are needed to fill the gaps in adventureing groups... and I don't often find that the gap is in combat abilities. What you are suggesting here is at it's core that my PCs are replaceable with a hireling...

starting sarcasm mode here
In fact, if my PC were to be needing to hire expert help, he/she would most likely need to hire a combat expert... hay! that's covered in the OPs post, when he was checking the rules on Hirelings!

Core Rulebook wrote:
Hireling, Trained: The amount given (3sp a day) is the typical daily wage for mercenary warriors, masons, craftsmen, cooks, scribes, teamsters, and other trained hirelings. This value represents a minimum wage; many such hirelings require significantly higher pay.

So, if I just hire say 20 mercenary warriors, paying combat pay, hazard pay, a bonus for good performance, and say another bonus just because I'm trying to be a "Good" PC that should run me 60 gp or so. At that rate I'm paying 10 times the listed "typical daily wage" for mercenaries... That would allow me to replace the rest of you "under-educated" pathfinders. Need someone to swing a sword and kill things? Hire them! They are cheep!

That's covered in the existing rules!
(eye-roll)
sarcasm mode off

This game we play is designed as a story about a team of individuals with different and unique talents. Each of the PCs should bring something to the table that they do well. If the team assembled does not have a skill? Find a way to get by it! or find a different team member.

It's a challange - like the Ogre in the doorway. If your way pass the skill challange is to hire someone - I'm ok with that. Just remember that I might want to hire someone to get me past the COMBAT challange.

sorry... I'm going to wonder away now. Back to my dusty old scrolls and tomes of arcane lore...

[Maklak]

Quote:

The best thing we can do in order to prevent shenanigans with hiring hireling scholars is to draft tough but fair payment plans to ensure there is some (yet limited) scope for what they can and can't do for payment. Let's get an idea of what confidentiality costs. Let's get an idea of the cost of a +10 skill rank. The core rulebook hireling rules do not accomplish this.

Yes, it would be great to get rules for this. Sure, for a mid-level adventuring party the cost might not be much, but it is better than just GMs making up numbers.

I've seen a booklet with 4 NPC companions (a guide, a porter and a camp follower) and the rule was that if you get ambushed on a road, they try to avoid combat and fight only if they must. they won't follow you into a dungeon, but will stay with the horses and keep an eye on them for you. Non-combatants who stay with the horses can get jumped and killed, but this should be rare. They will also charge extra for some services. Heck, if the party gets to know them and they die, taking the hireling possessions to his family hundreds of hexes away can be an adventure hook in itself.

It is not inconceivable that a scholar would want to go on an archaeological expedition (or send a younger apprentice), but he would only enter the dungeon once he is sure that the monsters are dead and the traps disarmed. If any case, a travelling scholar would probably slow the party down and have at least 2 pack animals worth of stuff. He might also insist on having additional guards, a share of spoils and so on.

Quote:

You can spend prestige on a vanity, which is essentially a follower who knows stuff. That's how you get a hireling in PFS.

Lame.

Quote:

That's not terribly outrageous and nobody wants to see "the hireling strategy" abused. Neither do we want to see hireling combatants, which the PFS guide strictly forbids anyway.

This is outrageous. I *should* have an option to hire mercenaries to do the fighting, or intimidate some Orks into serving me or whatever. This would create some problems, but if enemy leaders have henchmen, the players should have that option as well. Maybe even up to and including outsourcing fetch-quests and escort missions. Plus luring people to where they die, only to claim and sell their equipment is hilarious in some computer RPGs.

I'd say that if they just want to speak to a sage briefly, 10 gp is enough. For a few hours or days of work, 50 gp should do it. If they have to pay more than 500 gp then they get horribly ripped, unless that is the only scholar in hundreds of miles who knows the answer. If they kiss up to the scholar's apprentice, they might get their answer for less than 5 gp, or even for a beer. I base this on a rule I found somewhere that a service of a good lawyer or a similar expert (including preparing documents, speaking at the court, etc.) is worth around 50 gp. A lot of you are doing it too meta-gamey, basing the price for answering a question on the wealth of the PCs. Look at it this way instead: A commoner's monthly income is 3gp, while a skilled worker gets 10 gp per month (I think I've seen it in an older DnD book, not Pathfinder). An expert should be happy to earn 50 gp in several days. Heck, even PC classes who are supposedly really good have rules that they can earn 10 * level gp per week in a city after finding a job or something like that. An expert can be level 3, maybe 5 if he is especially good.

Quote:

However, this discussion makes it sound very much like some people don't even want to BE Pathfinders - they just want to play the Pathfinder RPG in an organized play environment.

There is nothing wrong with that. Nor is there with requesting rules for such a situation. Seriously, the OP asked a simple question "how much should consulting an expert cost", to which a good answer is "50 gp or less for a week, but he won't travel with you". Instead you guys derailed this discussion into a massive off-topic about how people are supposed to make their characters. Or something. Geez. And if people want to play as members of an organisation, this should give them contacts to people who know things and want the PCs mission to succeed. Which means getting some answers for free or a token price.

Quote:

But please - let's do it by making our PC's into the heroes, and not by making them middle management, sending unnamed NPCs out to explore, report, and cooperate on our behalf. There are already enough Pathfinder Proxies out there without adding hired sages and sellswords.

Because summon monster and prying eyes are cheaper for the exploring in the long run anyway :P But jokes aside, yeah, I can see how having too many hirelings would make the combats too dragged and the rest of the game into diplomacy checks over not paying the mercenaries enough. It would stop being amusing after a few sessions.

Quote:

find a scholar "that could help them with their petrified friend". They paid like 50 gold and the guy said, "Duh, just rub the blood on them!" It was a first level party, and as a GM I felt a responsibility to help them have fun and survive. Not die in the first encounter. But in a level 7-11, I'd have been like, "well, he's a statue now and you have no idea how to help him, what would you like to do now?"

That makes you a horrible GM in my opinion. They can pay a caster for a spell. They can pay to have an item made and enchanted according to their specification. But they somehow can't hire a sage to answer a simple question or look it up in a book, even when paying a lot for it. WTF, man? Are you running a simulation of a fantasy world or are you just screwing with your players just to spite them?

Quote:

If you can buy the expertise after you know which knowledge you need its effectively the same thing as having all of the knowledge skills.

Nope. It is still better to have the knowledge skill, then only pay for it when you don't know the answer yourself. Even when you don't need to know *right now* what are the strengths and weaknesses of the monster attacking you, just knowing something is always better than having to make a trip to the town (which may be far) and paying for it. This means that learning a few languages and spending at least a point on knowledge skills will usually pay off and forbidding players from ever hiring experts is a really stupid way to force them into spending skill points the way you want them to.

Quote:

But rise linearly, whereas your income rises exponentially.

There is no rule that ties the income of an average NPC to the average party level.

If someone is ugly, has no useful skills, but has wealth, he can hire others to work for him. It is as simple as that.

Quote:

In fact, if my PC were to be needing to hire expert help, he/she would most likely need to hire a combat expert... hay! that's covered in the OPs post, when he was checking the rules on Hirelings!

Core Rulebook wrote:
Hireling, Trained: The amount given (3sp a day) is the typical daily wage for mercenary warriors, masons, craftsmen, cooks, scribes, teamsters, and other trained hirelings. This value represents a minimum wage; many such hirelings require significantly higher pay.

So, if I just hire say 20 mercenary warriors, paying combat pay, hazard pay, a bonus for good performance, and say another bonus just because I'm trying to be a "Good" PC that should run me 60 gp or so. At that rate I'm paying 10 times the listed "typical daily wage" for mercenaries... That would allow me to replace the rest of you "under-educated" pathfinders. Need someone to swing a sword and kill things? Hire them! They are cheep!

That's covered in the existing rules!

Ah, finally one of you gets it. Thanks mate.

[Maklak]

Anyway, here are my badly organised notes on hirelings in DnD.

Hirelings:
1 sp / day for simple labour, without travel -> 3 gp / month
3 sp / day for skilled, without travel or semi-skilled with travel -> 10 gp / month
1 gp / day for high end servants -> 300 gp / year
3 gp / day for skilled PC class. -> 100 gp / month
10 gp * level / week for PC classes -> 40 gp * level / month
Guide 2 sp/day, bonus to survival, food for 4 and a chance to speed up movement off-road by a small margin.
Porter 1 sp/day, gets a bonus to carrying capacity (+2 Strenght) if given 30 minutes. Light up to 86 lbs, medium up to 173, heavy up to 260 lbs.
If travel is involved, they have to be provided food, shelter and everything. They get basic clothes and basic equipment for their jobs, but any extra or masterwork tools must be provided. Unless hired to fight, they will run or hide or surrender or sometimes use ranged weapons. Their imperative is to survive. They can have morale problems. If too many of them die or leave angry, PCs reputation will suffer. Some may attempt to steal sth and run at night.
Casters are usually paid per spell.
Mercenaries: Usually single or small groups. They are always unreliable. 1 sergeant per 10 troops and 1 horsed noble commander per 10 seargeants. Minimum 1 month of service and I don't know about purchasing their equipemnt, but for infantry it is 20-100 gp and for cavalery 400-2k. They're paid 2 sp/day for footmen, 4 sp/day for cavalery and 5-10 sp/day for leaders. This is just for garnison, active duty (like travelling) is double that and combat is triple. They get armour, weapon, backpack and can carry 15 kg of stuff, mostly food.
Travel ratios are 5 cp/day and 1 kg for a medium humanoid, 2 cp/day for a horse (8kg or 5h of grazing) or small humanoid (0.5 kg) and 5+ gp/day and 25+ kg of meat for a griffin or something (needs herding cattle, goats or sheep behind the army). A medium humanoid needs 4.5 l of drink per day, small one 2.5 l and a horse 50 l.

City gate toll: 2cp / person on foot, 1 sp per rider and mount or a pack animal, 1 gp per wagon.

An acre is 2/5 ha. A bushel is 35-36 litres or 15-25 kg.
There is 35-50% arable land, 15-20% forest, 20-25% pasture and the rest is unusable.
Population density in the county is typically 2 adults / acre. With 3-4 there is hunger. So that's 5 adults (or 2 families) per ha or up to 10 adults per ha with overpouplation. 1/3 of that ha is fallow, the other 2/3 grow staple crops, like grain and beans. 10 people per ha to harvest in one day.
Normally there are 2 crops per year (even if different plants), but cold climates get a 50% decrease and warm a 20% increase in income. Plant growth increases the uield by 33%, affecting farms, pastures, vineyards, orchards and gardens. Has 1.5 km radious.
Wheat crop is 600 kg / ha. without plant growth. Density of wheat is 0.85 g/cm^3.
Cash crops: Lumber, Flax and Hemp,
Cotton - labour intensive and requires 25 people per 1ha. It strips the land of nutrients, even with plant growth,
Olives - warm climate only, 4 years to mature, can be converted to 60% oil, 15 bushels of olives or 10 bushels of oil per ha.
Orchard: Fruit, cider. 2-3 years for trees to give fruit. 10 bushels per ha (r u serious? 10 crates of apples per ha?) 1 bushel of fruit makes around 40 litres of cider.
Wool: 5 sheep per ha. of pasture. 1 worker can shear 12. A shepard is needed per 100 sheep.
Vineyard: 7 years before gives fruit. 1 hectare produces 220 l of wine. Wine is low quality, no aging, spoils after a year. A barrel holds 220 l.
Beehive: produces honey and wax, about 1 hive per 30 hectares.
Dovecote: produces doves for food and their droppings are a good manure. About 1k doves, 30 days to mature, 50-100g of food per day.
Mill: a good profit in coin and a portion of milled grain. 1 per 60 ha. Can be water or wind and is prone to breaking down.
Mine: Usually owned by a king or lord above the PCs. Income is 1/3 to that lord, 1/3 to PCs and 1/3 to the miners, who also pay taxes on it. A mine needs 30 miners to work. After it is exhausted, it can be used to grow mushrooms.
Quarries are just for construction stone and usually owned by the PCs. They need 30 miners to work. 1/2 income to the PCs, 1/2 to pay the miners and for taxes.
Mills are not just for grain, they can help with wool, olive oil, wine, tanners and smiths, increasing their income by 20%.

Infantry is either missile or melee and often uses combined arms to hide archers behind shields and spears. Cheap and all-around good. Cavalery is expensive and vulnerable to magic, which makes light missile cavalery a better oprion than heavy lancers. Air is expensive, but great for reckon. Navy is expensive and vulnerable to fire, so it is mostly used for logistics. Caster divisions are the most effective and mostly used for intelligence, counter-intelligence and incursions.

During times or war, military and adventuring gear can double or tripple in price.

Oil lamps burn 0.5 litre per 6 hours on maximum burn (~60W lightbulb) (or ~50 hours on a gallon of fuel), but can be turned down to a candle flame for a much lower consumption. (Maybe 10 times less fuel?)

Some items are in demand. +1 and +2 swords and armour, as well as say, wands of cure ight wounds or lvl 1 and 2 pearls of power can be sold for 75% value.

A nice house with a few rooms for a family to live would be wroth around 1kgp, while a shack maybe 200 gp. A manor can cost 5-15kgp.

A landed knight has an income of 2-10kgp, while a king or a baron can get as much as 5Mgp per year. Of course this is subject to the cost of living, hiring staff, paying unkeep, etc. Also, much of this is in goods rather than coin.

[DesolateHarmony]

Maklak, do you know you are on the forum for the Pathfinder Society Organized play?

[Maklak]

Wait, this is not the forum for general GM advice? My bad then. But now I also know not to get involved with any official campaigns and GMs because it would get really frustrating really fast, because this is not how I want to play an RPG. So thanks for that. I hope my notes on prices will still be of some use though.

[DesolateHarmony]

Yeah, there are some sacrifices that have to be made for the transferability and uniformity of organized play.

I do appreciate the heads-up on all of the ways to gain the help of ... minions, but yeah, we have limits on things.

[Maklak]

Well, sorry for the rant. I've never been involved in any organised play and I think I prefer the freedom of just playing with a group of friends and a GM who lets people do things the way they want to, maybe just trolling them slightly over doing things other than adventuring.

None of my characters ever directly hired an NPC, but some were involved in alliances, romances and even occasionally helped in combat, so not having access to an expert in a city that should have a bunch is very counter-intuitive to me.

As for having 20 mercenaries around, I can see why it would be a very bad idea for organised play, but for just playing with friends, there are ways to make them more annoying than they would be worth. Just throw all kinds of logistical problems that a bigger group presents, including:
* Their unkeep.
* Outfitting them in anything better than leather armour, small wooden shield and a simple weapon (which they should start with).
* The cost and logistics of carrying enough food, because the PCs won't feed 25 people on just foraging. They would need at least a few donkeys to carry all those travelling rations, tents and so on.
* Mercenaries arguing for better pay or straight-up threatening to murder the PCs after they defeat the dungeon and are weakened. So in the end, the mercs may eat up a significant part of the treasure. I'd say about 1/3 loot plus their pay, unkeep, food, etc.
* Leeching XP from players. Because why not. And if they happen to level up, they of course want more pay.
* Problems when visiting a town ad getting into a fight or committing a rape or something getting stolen from somebody important.
* Some might desert at night, taking some stolen things with them. The PCs may attempt to track them, or just continue their mission.
* One or two of them might actually be an informants for the group that the PCs are trying to thwart. He can convince some others that they will get more pay if they betray the PCs.
* The sell-swords will fight, but not die for the PCs. Once 25% of them are down or 50% are injured, they retreat, either in organised fashion or just every man for himself. If they see anything really scary like a dragon, they simply run. They regroup far enough to probably not join the same combat before it ends.
* If they get injured (and they will with around 14 AC), PCs are expected to burn healing kits and CLW wands on healing them.
* If too many of them die, the PCs get a bad reputation as employers.

So the mercenaries are an unreliable bunch, sucking more than 500 gp per month, possibly even over 2000 gp per month and a nightmare to equip. What do they bring to the table? My answer is, not much. They are mostly lvl 1 and 2, with maybe a lvl 3 commander and aren't optimised, with mostly warriors and an occasional adept. They can defeat maybe up to CR 5 monsters, but will take a significant portion of the treasure from them and leech XP. Anything more challenging and they get massacred and run away, leaving the PCs to their fate. It might be fun as an experiment (and to teach the players a taste what a logistical nightmare an army can be), but not that fun to actually play and in the end would probably show why in DnD, it is better to send a smaller skilled group than a bunch of lvl 1s at a problem.

Heck, I've been in a campaign where our town was getting harassed by slavers, so we got the sheriff to hire about 30 mercenaries. Those brigands were almost worse than the slavers, forced us to pay them extra and were close to razing the town. Another PC barely avoided getting raped. And even with the mercs, air superiority on our side and an alchemical bomb spreading dust with random transmutation effects crafted by our characters, is was a tough fight, with many wounded NPCs on our side.

[kinevon]

Shifty wrote:

How are you guys doing groups? DO you even have a conversation or is it some blind process where the game starts and you all put down your sheets like a poker game or something?

What happens when you have no healer or six fighters? Is there no conversation had at all about someone playing something different etc?

What if this whole thread wasn't "We didn't bother bringing any skill monkeys" and was "We didn't bring any melee, can we just hire cheap but level appropriate mercenaries?" - its the exact same thing.

Since we are talking, in my area, about non-Game Day stuiff, a small, single table at a local FLGS, still in start-up mode for this GM on this day at this location, we have what we have.

Kimberly has her one PFS PC, a Fighter who just leveled to 2nd.
Dave is running his one PFS PC, a Monk who has 2 XP.
John, Jimmy and the third guy were all new PF players, had played AD&D but not PF, had no PFS PCs, and had chosen their pregens before I arrived.
Ezren, who may be Int-based, but doiesn't come with many Knowledges trained.
Merisiel, who only has Local trained.
Seoni or whatever the Barbarian is named. Maybe trained in Nature?

So, three newbies, one person on their third(?) PFS game, and another on her 5th or 6th (pregen credit for a couple of modules waiting on her PC to reach the right level, IIRC) PFS game, would you force one of them to chance either their only PFS PC, or run a different pregen than they want to?

With that party make-up, and since I am the only player with multiple low-level PCs, I decided that some healing would be helpful, so I had a choice between my 2nd level Cleric, with 2 sp, and my 2nd level Oracle of Life (he gets 5 sp per level. Oooo.).

I took my Oracle, but his skills are (with traits to make some of them class skills):
Diplomacy
Perception
Heal
Spellcraft
Craft (Alchemy)
And I have Ioun stones, cracked, that give a +1 competence to several of these skills, and one that gives a +2 to Perception at a penalty (-1) to Initiative.

So, 6 PC party, APL is in 1-2 sub-tier. One Int-based PC, but that is a pregen with predefined skills. And he rolled a 1 on the Arcana for the <redacted>, so a total of 9. Yeah, not a lot of info there.

So, what would you have done?

Edit:
Witches in our area: maybe two, counting the one I acidentally killed in Black Waters
Magi: I know of 2 or 3, and two of them are somewhere in the 7 or 8 level area now
Wizards: 4-5, and I was the only one at this table who has any that aren't pregen.
Ranger: I think there are a couple besides my single one around.
Bards: Very arare, I may have the only one in the area, and he is 5th level.
Rogues: Ninja player couldn't make it, and my Rogue is hanging til I finish running Dragon's Demand, since he is the one getting those chronicles, which will also make him 7th level. I know of one other Rogue in our area, who is multi-class and 10th or 11th level at this point...

We try to discuss it, when we have experienced players with options. At this table, there wasn't much to discuss, since I was the only player with options. YMMV.

[Shifty]

Wait, in all seriousness, can you point to the scenario you were playing that required a T1-3 party to have a range of skills or fail the mission?

In what mission do you need a know:arcana or fail?

[kinevon]

Shifty wrote:

Wait, in all seriousness, can you point to the scenario you were playing that required a T1-3 party to have a range of skills or fail the mission?

In what mission do you need a know:arcana or fail?

It isn't a Knowledge (Arcana) or fail, it is a Knowledge (Arcana) or permadeath.

Spoiler:

Severing Ties. If you don't make a Knowledge (Arcana) check on the basilisk(s), you won't know that the basilisk's blood can be used to unstone up to 3 PCs who failed their saves againmst petrification. And, at tier 1-5, you don't have the money, usually, to buy the Stopne to FLesh, or the Raise Dead if you fail that Fort save...

[Shifty]

I happen to know the encounter, and while it is certainly very nasty, not having a certain skill doesn't cause you to fail the mission nor is it essential to the task.

Failing a DC15 Fort saving throw (SoS) is what gets you killed, which could just as easily be said for eating a crit, walking into a trap, or a whole range of other horrible ends - all of which may as well be permadeath at that level anyhow. Having a good knowledge on hand simply hands you a get out of jail free card - an extra ace in the sleeve for those who had it - but not a punishment for those that didn't.

You also have the ability to go get help and solve the problem too, you can backpedal away from the encounter and get answers/help - there is nothing preventing the party still alive going off to find out what they need to do. Worst possible case scenario they have an hour to do it in as well.

[KestlerGunner]

Shifty - we do not have a current gold price on 'get answers/help.'

[Shifty]

Not entirely true.

Worst case scenario it is the price of Spellcasting services and you pay for a Divination. An Augury would be even cheaper if you could get down to a yes/no.

The Dungeoneers book gives us Sages at 25gp/day, bit for some reason is not legal - might ask Mike Brock about that one.

So there's a black and white RAW worst case, roleplay and GM discretion (Cleric of X, going to a temple of X and saying 'Hey guys do you know if...') is also likely possible. You are only looking for an answer to an easy question - not asking them for their first born.

[kinevon]

Shifty wrote:

I happen to know the encounter, and while it is certainly very nasty, not having a certain skill doesn't cause you to fail the mission nor is it essential to the task.

Failing a DC15 Fort saving throw (SoS) is what gets you killed, which could just as easily be said for eating a crit, walking into a trap, or a whole range of other horrible ends - all of which may as well be permadeath at that level anyhow. Having a good knowledge on hand simply hands you a get out of jail free card - an extra ace in the sleeve for those who had it - but not a punishment for those that didn't.

You also have the ability to go get help and solve the problem too, you can backpedal away from the encounter and get answers/help - there is nothing preventing the party still alive going off to find out what they need to do. Worst possible case scenario they have an hour to do it in as well.

And how does the party know that spending money to actually learn about the creature will give a cheap solution to the problem of a dead PC? Sort of a chicken-and-egg problem, if you ask me.

I don't know of any time I have seen a party actually go to a sage/knowledge monkey not part of their party to get more than local information (diplomacy to gather information, mainly) or background on other NPCs, again Gather Information type stuff.

Or you just descend into the depths of metagaming...

Oh, and can they get a second opinion, if the first sage/augury blows the roll?

Note: I am not advocating for the ability to hire NPC sages to accompany a party into a dungeon, I am just pointing out why some people see the need for it.

One of my favorite PCs is my Lore Warden Fighter, whose knowledge skills, while not up to the level of a Wizard of his level, are still fairly respectable. And I am looking at ways to make the NPCs he associates with get the idea that he really is an arcane caster rather than a martial one. (cracked purple prism Ioun stones, variant spell casting wayfinders (detect magic to go with his Spellcraft, etc.))

[Shifty]

kinevon wrote:

And how does the party know that spending money to actually learn about the creature will give a cheap solution to the problem of a dead PC? Sort of a chicken-and-egg problem, if you ask me.

Aside from the idea that there are no guarantees, that's the 'worst case' scenario. The claim was there was no recourse to getting assistance, so I have provided a RAW answer that gives the maximum, a suggestion for a lesser solution (ie Augury - pretty cheap) and even that the problem might reduce even further to a roleplay solution than a 'cash for comment' one. Especially relevant in the particular scenario and the situation it relates to.

kinevon wrote:

I don't know of any time I have seen a party actually go to a sage/knowledge monkey not part of their party to get more than local information (diplomacy to gather information, mainly) or background on other NPCs, again Gather Information type stuff.

And yet nothing is stopping them doing more, other than they didn't need/want/think to - just because they don't doesn't mean they can't. People suggested they had no option, yet it is quite clear they do have ways to solve their problems.

Or you just descend into the depths of metagaming...

kinevon wrote:

Oh, and can they get a second opinion, if the first sage/augury blows the roll?

They may need to, however the DC in question in the one fringe encounter that anyone cared to name was a DC15 - which is an almost guaranteed hit. Auguries also come pretty cheap - do you ask for a refund when you blow a roll using an anti-toxin?

kinevon wrote:

Note: I am not advocating for the ability to hire NPC sages to accompany a party into a dungeon, I am just pointing out why some people see the need for it.

Then they can, by all means, play one - or if the need is so great make sure a friend does.

The problem here is the cry that there are these horrible auto-fail permadeath problems, yet the one encounter people hum and har and nod at sagely turns out to be not only NOT mission breaking, but also unlikely to be a perma-death either (unless you are horribly careless, missed traps, failed saves, and then didn't have anyone who could nail a fairly easy DC and then also didn't bother walking back upstairs to the nearest temple/scholar).

[Tangaroa]

I am of the opinion the 4 PP specialist should be revamped into something more useful.

A human NPC, non-heroic, with intelligence as the primary statistic and skill focus would give about +9 at 1st level. Much more useful as a boon.

Alternatively, can we purchase that boon and then apply skill-boosting magic or mundane items to that follower? (or muleback cords to a porter, or eyes of the eagle to a lookout?) This would also allow people to adapt without buying away all their failings.

[David_Bross]

You shouldn't feel like your choice to not have skill points translates into there not being skill checks in PFS organized play.

If you've chosen to play a PC without any skills, don't expect your utter lack of skills to translate into no skill checks being requires for mission success, of primary or secondary. Even if you've only got one skill point, you choose where to put that, and it isn't that hard to make your PC decent at something, especially if he/she has the stats to back it up/class skills.

My PCs:

My cleric cheats is a diabolist, with an imp companion, I've got a +10-+15 in spell craft, knowledge arcana, planes, and religion, level 10. I'd feel kind of crappy if someone else got a +9 at level 1 for 4 prestige. Also has perception/diplomacy/UMD.

My druid has a +17 knowledge nature, at level 13, as well as a decent survival, spell craft, diplomacy, and perception. Has an utterly terrible knowledge planes (+5).

My mystic theurge (level 10) has every knowledge skill at least at a +12, most of them are +20 at least. Also has a bunch of other skills….

My Archer has perception, UMD, acrobatics, diplomacy.

My Swashbuckler has perception, UMD, diplomacy, acrobatics.

Finally my lower level evoker (3rd) has similar skills to the theurge, although fewer of them, and not as good.

My next two PCs are going to be a trapspotting rogue and a flagbearer bard.

When I choose to play a PC that doesn't have knowledge skills, or other skills , I'm looking around the table making sure we have that covered to some extent. Our eyes of the ten group (that my druid is playing in) can't routinely hit above a 25 in any knowledge check, except perhaps nature, and if that stymies us, we'll spend prestige to get a +4 on our checks, do some research so we can assist each other, etc.

By the way, the text for the scholar vanity doesn't preclude it from using +4 on any one skill check from the guide, like most other vanities do, so you could potentially spend 2 prestige for a +9 untrained knowledge check, as if you were trained. Or you could gain a +6 bonus to one you were trained in yourself. That seems like there are fairly good options to me.

[Thod]

Missing a crucial skill can be devastating at the table.

But the same could be said for
1) not having a single magic weapon in the group
2) not having a single cold iron/good aligned/silver weapon in the groEtch
3) not having hraling
Etc.
Sometimes not having what is needed can be tough.

The use of skill checks has the overall benefit to push people to more rounded characters and as such it overall is beneficial. Skills for hire would undermine this. They would be introduced with best intentions - but pressure to be better will quickly erode good intentions and you will find arguments by RAW I can do this now and likely an overall detrimental effect.

Hey - I once failed nearly a whole adventure because the climb skill was poor and not a single character owned a rope.

You learn and adapt.

[Thod]

In regard to vanities

My porter turned out more of a liability as anything else.

In his first adventure he good his wisdom AoE damaged to zero. He was baleful poly morphed to be easier to carry.
Two or three scenarios later he was left at an outpost - to be safe. Could I know that this place was wiped and everyone killed there while we investigated the dungeon.

Was nice to have known you - but it caused the GM just trouble - how to deal with actions that would damage / kill a non-combatant vanity. Both GMs ruled in a sensible way in my point of view - but off course this is grey area and other players would disagree if they invested and then something is taken away from them (was a GM boon in my case - so less of a loss in my eyes).

[Matthew Morris]

I'd also point out the retraining rules.

If you don't have skill X, and you keep getting bitten by lack of skill X, either a buy a headband or b retrain some points into X.

[Shifty]

But I want to put all my eggs into the combat basket, but not find my choice comes back to haunt me when the sessions are designed for robust and well rounded gameplay.

Not fair.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Shifty wrote:

But I want to put all my eggs into the combat basket, but not find my choice comes back to haunt me when the sessions are designed for robust and well rounded gameplay.

Not fair.

chuckle...

This is basically how I see this argument.

To directly address those who want some rules for hirelings:

I understand that some classes don't have a ton of skill points. And you want to put your very limited resource into skills that will assist you in doing what you do best. To help you with your schtick.

I get it.

But if you want to create a character that isn't the best of pathfinders (exploring and reporting), and you depend on others to do so for you (as they depend on you for your AC and Sword Arm), then there will come a time when you won't be able to solve the problem.

That is part of organized play. Sometimes the group you have isn't realistically the group a Venture-Captain would assemble for a mission.

But if you go on the idea that most missions are super important to be solved immediately, and the V-C just calls forth the pathfinders that are immediately available, this will happen.

Which is why its a good idea to find some way to contribute in more ways than one. There are items that help you with knowledges, diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, etc. So buy some instead of getting your AC to 32 instead of 30, or instead of getting your Trip CMB to +47 instead of +45.

Or just accept that sometimes, you are going to fail.

[Avatar-1]

We're not talking about min-maxed characters with AC 32 or CMD 47, we're talking about perfectly balanced characters - even ones that aren't 2 skill point classes - who know they need a single skill for a single scenario.

Nobody's going to buy a headband for 4000gp for that, or a permanent following Scholar for 4 prestige, or skill retraining for more than both of those. That's not a practical solution.

If there's an item that lets you use a Knowledge skill with a DC higher than 10 when it's one of the very few you don't have a rank in, that might be a solution we can consider.

nosig wrote:

Find a way to get by it! or find a different team member.

That's what we're doing here, except trying to find a fair price since 60gp just doesn't seem right.

Thod wrote:

Hey - I once failed nearly a whole adventure because the climb skill was poor and not a single character owned a rope.

That's not the same thing - this situation is assuming that, at the beginning of the scenario, the party says "hey, we might need a rope! let's get one". We're not forgetting that we need that important tool, and we're looking into buying it - but the price isn't really clear.

[Matthew Morris]

Avatar-1 wrote:

We're not talking about min-maxed characters with AC 32 or CMD 47, we're talking about perfectly balanced characters - even ones that aren't 2 skill point classes - who know they need a single skill for a single scenario.

Nobody's going to buy a headband for 4000gp for that, or a permanent following Scholar for 4 prestige, or skill retraining for more than both of those. That's not a practical solution.

Actually...

The discussion isn't talking about 'a single scenario' It's talking about "I've failed multiple sceanrios because none of my friends have the skills we need. Is there some way to get those skills?"

There are several solutions given. That you don't like the three I mentioned, doesn't make them less relevant. Going from a +2 armor (4000) to a +3 (9000) is 5000 gp so yes, for the low low price of one point less AC, you too can have that skill you've been lamenting you never see maxed out.

For the price of just two (two!) happy sticks, you can have a portable skill bunny with that skill!

I find both solutions practical. Or wait... Take a level dip of a skill monkey class!

There are solutions. That you have a party that doesn't use them, then complains when they don't have the skills needed is not a bug, it's a feature.

Edit: Besides, we spend gold on gear 'just in case' all the time. breath of life scrolls? Tanglefoot/burn bags? air crystals? Heck one of our local players has a chronicle sheet that says "You're Batman" just because she packs a haversack full of alchemical items for 'just such an emergency'. I do the same more and more.

"Ok, you failed your save, you're blind. Your turn."

"I retrieve my potion of remove blindness and drink it."

"Wait, you have a potion of remove blindness?"

"Just in case."

[David_Bross]

I have so many scrolls of remove curse… never again….

[kinevon]

Shifty wrote:

But I want to put all my eggs into the combat basket, but not find my choice comes back to haunt me when the sessions are designed for robust and well rounded gameplay.

Not fair.

Not quite.

I am running a fairly well-balanced PC, but, due to the limitations of the class, I can only invest in so much in-combat stuff, and so much out-of-combat stuff.

So, in order to cover all the out-of-combat skill needs, I need:
Appraise
Bluff
Climb
Craft (Alchemy)
Craft (Painting)
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Heal
Knowledge (History)
Knowledge (Local)
Knowledge (Nobility)
Linguistics
Perception
Perform (Dance)
Profession (Lawyer)
Profession (Sailor)
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Survival
Swim
UMD

In-combat skill needs is a (slightly) shorter list:
Bluff
Intimidate
Knowledge (Arcana)
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Knowledge (Nature)
Knowledge (Religion)
Knowledge (Planes)
Knowledge (Local)
Perception
Spellcraft
Stealth

Ummmm. Yeah.

So, either I need to take an Int 24 Wizard to start, or find a party that was built to cover all the bases, or, in normal PFS mix-and-match tables, hope that our gaps in skills aren't either fatal or cause mission failure.

[Shifty]

kinevon wrote:

So, in order to cover all the out-of-combat skill needs, I need:
Appraise
Bluff
Climb
Craft (Alchemy)
Craft (Painting)
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Heal
Knowledge (History)
Knowledge (Local)
Knowledge (Nobility)
Linguistics
Perception
Perform (Dance)
Profession (Lawyer)
Profession (Sailor)
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Survival
Swim
UMD

In-combat skill needs is a (slightly) shorter list:
Bluff
Intimidate
Knowledge (Arcana)
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Knowledge (Nature)
Knowledge (Religion)
Knowledge (Planes)
Knowledge (Local)
Perception
Spellcraft
Stealth

Ummmm. Yeah.

Please explain why you personally need all these skills.

First part is you personally.

Second part is justifying the need for each of the skills listed.

I have never once seen a scenario fail through lack of Craft 'Painting'.

If you are just going to pack a sad and throw your hands in the air and make outrageous claims, expect to be called on it.

[redward]

kinevon wrote:

...or, in normal PFS mix-and-match tables, hope that our gaps in skills aren't either fatal or cause mission failure.

Pretty much this, although the consequences will rarely be that dire unless you're dealing with haunts and/or Ron Lundeen*.

*I actually love his scenarios, but they are deadly.

[Shifty]

Elven Fighter with 12 Int at

L1 has...
Knowledge (History)
Knowledge (Local)
Knowledge (Nobility)
Knowledge (Arcana)
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Knowledge (Nature)
Knowledge (Religion)
Knowledge (Planes)
Knowledge (Local)
Profession (Lawyer)
Profession (Sailor)
Craft (Painting)
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Heal

At Level 2 buys
Sense Motive
Perform (Dance)
Linguistics
Climb

At level 3 buys
Sleight of Hand
Survival
Swim
UMD

At level 4 buys
Bluff
Intimidate
Perception
Spellcraft

At level 5 has:
Stealth
Craft (Alchemy)
and is now buying in extra ranks in whatever.

Pick mix n match order to taste.

[kinevon]

Shifty wrote:

Elven Fighter with 12 Int at

L1 has...
Knowledge (History)
Knowledge (Local)
Knowledge (Nobility)
Knowledge (Arcana)
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Knowledge (Nature)
Knowledge (Religion)
Knowledge (Planes)
Knowledge (Local)
Profession (Lawyer)
Profession (Sailor)
Craft (Painting)
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Heal

At Level 2 buys
Sense Motive
Perform (Dance)
Linguistics
Climb

At level 3 buys
Sleight of Hand
Survival
Swim
UMD

At level 4 buys
Bluff
Intimidate
Perception
Spellcraft

At level 5 has:
Stealth
Craft (Alchemy)
and is now buying in extra ranks in whatever.

Pick mix n match order to taste.

So, please explain to me how a fighter, with 3-4 skill points per level has 15 trained skills at level 1?

As to the list of skills I put up, let's see:
Appraise: Know how much the macguffin you arte looking for is worth, so you can tell if you have the real thing or the counterfeit thing.
Bluff: Sometimes you have to bluff, rather than say you are Pathfinders, in order to have a chance to succeed.
Climb: Having apositive modifier means that you can at least T10 for many climbs.
Craft (Alchemy): Identify those mundane items, or for some, make them.
Craft (Painting): Heh. This is in regards to some faction missions, where you have to make a star chart/drawing/what-have-you. May no longer be needed.
Diplomacy: Do I really need to justify this?
Disable Device: Traps can be a pain.
Heal: Sometimes your job is to make an NPC feel better...
Knowledge (History): Background info, can make some scenarios play better if you know how to bypass certain curses involved...
Knowledge (Local): Background info, and knowledge of the merchants and such folk involved.
Knowledge (Nobility): Background info, and knowledge about the upper crust involved.
Linguistics: Read language Y when you don't know it already. Decipher a coded message.
Perception: Find things. Like Diplomacy, covers so many things that are essential.
Perform (Dance): Some way to impress the folks, or if you hit one of the moduoles that uses Combat Performance, or to use Dervish Dance...
Profession (Lawyer): Better than Intimidate, or when dealing with the Chellish.
Profession (Sailor): Lots of boats in PFS games.
Sense Motive: Are they telling you the truth?
Sleight of Hand: Pathfinders frequently have things they need to hide.
Survival: So, how do we get there from here, or how do we follow this creature's tracks?
Swim: Drowning is its own reward...
UMD: Very useful, especially if you wind up in that rare party where no one has CLW on their spell list (I have played a game where my Magus was the healer. Ugly.)

Bluff: Like CMB, can be used to lower a tank's AC.
Intimidate: Another way to get info from an enemy...
Knowledge (Arcana): DR, SR, resistances, etc.
Knowledge (Dungeoneering): DR, SR, resistances, etc.
Knowledge (Nature): DR, SR, resistances, etc.
Knowledge (Religion): DR, SR, resistances, etc.
Knowledge (Planes): DR, SR, resistances, etc.
Knowledge (Local): DR, SR, resistances, etc.
Perception: Minimize the surprise rounds. Sneak attack hurts.
Spellcraft: It can help to know what your opponent is casting, and can be used to help figure out what magical spells are around.
Stealth: Mainly for Roguish types, but it can make a difference for a whole party, sometimes.

[Talon89]

i believe that shifty was prioritizing for levels, please realize that no one character is ever going to have every skill... well save a bard at super high levels.

As a player, you have to think of what suits the character and fits the genre he/she is playing in. Pathfinders are explorers of the ancient world for the most part. It makes perfect sense to generate a character with that mind set, and have appropriate skills... yes you do have to sacrifice fit a niche. The face man may or may not have all the knowledges. There are ways in game already to aid the characters in skill checks.

[Shifty]

So actually you didn't need them all after all, they were mostly 'good to have', but there wasn't a lot that was deal breaking nor essential - there was no 'have this personally or fail' and indeed you could be missing a bunch of these in a group and still be ok.

Now,

2 skills per level +1 Int +1 FC bonus gives you 4 points a level - thats 20 skill points invested by level 5.

Buying Breadth of Experience (one Feat) gave you a crack at Every Knowledge skill and every profession skill in the game, including the much venerated and highly essential gamechanging profession:painter.

So EVERYTHING you said you wanted, completely yours, by level 5 - cost you a Feat.

Just how cheap do you want things that one Feat is 'too much to pay' to be self reliant and never worry again?

[kinevon]

Shifty wrote:

So actually you didn't need them all after all, they were mostly 'good to have', but there wasn't a lot that was deal breaking nor essential - there was no 'have this personally or fail' and indeed you could be missing a bunch of these in a group and still be ok.

Now,

2 skills per level +1 Int +1 FC bonus gives you 4 points a level - thats 20 skill points invested by level 5.

Buying Breadth of Experience (one Feat) gave you a crack at Every Knowledge skill and every profession skill in the game, including the much venerated and highly essential gamechanging profession:painter.

So EVERYTHING you said you wanted, completely yours, by level 5 - cost you a Feat.

Just how cheap do you want things that one Feat is 'too much to pay' to be self reliant and never worry again?

Did you read my descriptions? Knowing DR/SR/etc. can be game changing or even fatal to not know.

Also, what part of level 1 & 2 PCs in my tale earlier did you miss?

Also, just as an FYI, having 20 skills with 1 rank is not a good thing. At 5th level, where you have that, you won't have a high enough knowledge skill in anything to ding more than the gimmes, anyhow. And a Diplomacy, when you are the face, of +5 is not good by that point either, and so on and so forth.

Jack of All Trades is someone who might be able to Aid Another in anything, but is unlikely to do a good job as primary in anything.

And, Shifty, yet again, you missed my point: Party makeup affects what skills are available trained, severely, from both the number of skill points per level for the classes, and the class skills and/or traits taken to make additional skills class skills.

I suspect that many parties are going to have a fair overlap on Perception and Diplomacy training, which reduces the unique skills in the party.

[Shifty]

Ok so if we worry about DR/SR (the Knowledges) well I just handed you all of the Know skills and Profession skills in the game at L1. That's pretty handy.Even with no points invested the 12 Int Fighter (or cleric, or anyone else) is running with a +3 mod on each of them straight out of the gate before worrying about doing anything else.

Level 1.

So that fits into your tale of level 1-2 guys easily.

Now you can chuck a point into each one of those skills, but as we have discussed (and you yourself acknowledge) a lot of those skills could just have easily been dropped - BUT for the sake of your argument, I gave you every single skill you said was on your wish list, which I know full well you padded to kingdom come to try 'prove' your point - even the rather interesting profession:painter.

It is also fair to say that 20 skills with a point in each is not going to give you much amazing - fair comment, but you are now a jack of all trades, and not all of those skills will ever need more than one point.
take Climb for example - the fighter throws in 1 point and is now on an 8 modifier to climb a DC5 rope. Likewise you can buy masterwork tools etc for peanuts and all of a sudden you are starting to look respectable in quite a few areas. Grab a trait that gives you an extra class skill and some +1's (may I recommend Well Dressed for the amazing social buff?)

By the way, all this amazing flexibility cost one single Feat.

Pur party Fighter was built this way and funnily enough with a 12 Int and one Feat spent rocks quite a self sufficient skill set. If you want to get even funkier, buy 'Extra Traits' and REALLY go to town.

It's really not all that difficult - and there have now been a bunch of ways around the problem given to you - and they even gave you the mission critical and much discussed controversial game breaking Perform:dance - the one skill that has caused so many missions to fail.

[Nathan Hartshorn]

I really don't like the snark and sarcasm that is now dripping from this thread...

[GM Lamplighter]

It is getting a bit mean-spirited, but I think this comes from the frustrations on both sides of the argument at others not seeing things their way. Thus it began, and thus it shall ever be. ;)

Here is the crux of the matter, though. If you build a specialist character for PFS, sometimes you will fail in your duties as a Pathfinder. When you build your character, you have to choose which of these things is more important to you as a player.

As has been pointed out, there are many ways to mitigate the lack of skill points for combat types. Yes, they involve compromise, but often not significant compromise. And really, the only skills we are talking about here are Knowledge skills: most others that are important can be done untrained, with the whole party aiding another.

Allowing hirelings would be a different way to mitigate this, but one that I believe is a horrible idea for the campaign. There are already enough pets, animal companions, summoned creatures, mounts, and familiars at the table to outnumber the players at many tables. The game is about players at the table, playing characters. Every NPC of yours at the table waters down the other players' involvement and engagement.

[Silbeg]

Thod wrote:

Missing a crucial skill can be devastating at the table.

But the same could be said for
1) not having a single magic weapon in the group
2) not having a single cold iron/good aligned/silver weapon in the groEtch
3) not having hraling

Yeah, I hate it when my groEtch doesn't have hraling.

[redward]

GM Lamplighter wrote:

It is getting a bit mean-spirited, but I think this comes from the frustrations on both sides of the argument at others not seeing things their way. Thus it began, and thus it shall ever be. ;)

I get that someone may want to make a character that is not ideally suited to skills. I have several myself. But I don't think that means someone should be able to buy or rent every other class feature they're missing.

At some point you just have to hope your party will fill in the remaining gaps. And when they don't, you all have to adapt. Picking up any of the many, many contingency plans described in this thread is a good start.

Some of my best experiences have been with non-traditional parties. I enjoy playing without the safety net of a dedicated healer. Or having to stumble through social encounters with a party devoid of charisma. Spectacular failure is the next best thing to a rousing success. A session where the party blows through every challenge is boring.

Everyone getting a spotlight is nice. But when the entire team comes together to power through a problem that no one is built to handle? That's my favorite.

[nosig]

GM Lamplighter wrote:

It is getting a bit mean-spirited, but I think this comes from the frustrations on both sides of the argument at others not seeing things their way. Thus it began, and thus it shall ever be. ;)

Here is the crux of the matter, though. If you build a specialist character for PFS, sometimes you will fail in your duties as a Pathfinder. When you build your character, you have to choose which of these things is more important to you as a player.

As has been pointed out, there are many ways to mitigate the lack of skill points for combat types. Yes, they involve compromise, but often not significant compromise. And really, the only skills we are talking about here are Knowledge skills: most others that are important can be done untrained, with the whole party aiding another.

Allowing hirelings would be a different way to mitigate this, but one that I believe is a horrible idea for the campaign. There are already enough pets, animal companions, summoned creatures, mounts, and familiars at the table to outnumber the players at many tables. The game is about players at the table, playing characters. Every NPC of yours at the table waters down the other players' involvement and engagement.

I disagree with the following statement of yours "Here is the crux of the matter, though. If you build a specialist character for PFS, sometimes you will fail in your duties as a Pathfinder."

You could just as easily have said: "Here is the crux of the matter, though. If you DON'T build a specialist character for PFS, sometimes you will fail in your duties as a Pathfinder."

RPGs are about a group of specialists who come together to be more than they are individually.

I prefer to play in a group, relying on my fellow team members to do their part, and allowing them to shine when they do. When the "Traps Guy" picks a lock, or the "Knowledge Weenie" makes a Kn(Geography) check to read an old map, or the "Max Damage" cuts the monster down with a mighty blow... I give him his moment in the spotlight and say "we couldn't of done it without you guy! Thanks!"

But we have had this discussion on other threads and it is just derailing to discuss it here.

Perhaps we should turn this discussion to ways to help with those skill checks that someone might be a bit short on skill points for?

Derail, sorry!:

One of my sisters first PCs was an Archer with a 7 INT... and a trait to give her Disable Device as a class skill. As a human she got 3 SP per level, and often one went into DD... and while first level, during a special she got invited from the Tier 1-2 table to the Tier 12+ as she was only the second PC with Disable Device in 8 tables... and the other guy needed an AID.

My wife was visiting far from home and dropped into a game... They were surprised that her 1st level Wizard had Disable Device... (Trait, MW tools and a Dex of 16 gave her 1 rank a +10), but then as she says "I'm tired of sitting in a game that doesn't have anyone with DD"...

When I play at a game I check to see if we have a Face PC, a Traps guy, someone to heal, etc... all these are just as important as someone who can kill monsters. Often they are harder to find. We ALWAYS seem to have at least one (and often 4 or 5) guys who fit the role of Max Damage. Often I play the guy to cover these other bases. Result? I always have something to help the party with - and almost never have to play second fiddle.

Kinevons list of skills sort of addressed here...:

First how many of these are needed by EVERY team member? any? Otherwise we can expect you to cover maybe 1 in 4 of these and let the rest of your team do some stuff too... there is no need (want) to solo everything yourself...

Appraise - really? this can be used untrained... everyone roll, did all 6 of you roll under 10? so have everyone roll except me and I'll take 10.
Bluff - Gotta have a Party face. This is his skill, let him shine!
Climb - Buy a Kit, and Take 10. get the Max Damage to aid you... This is "use untrained" skill again.
Craft (Alchemy) - you know all craft skills can be used untrained... everyone roll. But I'm sure someone is going to have this... and it only takes one PC to have it.
Craft (Painting) - lol! really?! ok... everyone roll, did all 5 of you roll under 10? Ok, so now I'll take 10 and have guidance and you can all aid me. roll your aids.
Diplomacy - Party Face
Disable Device - Dex guy, I often have seen Fighters and Wizards with this skill - oh! and buy skeletons keys (85gp), and traits. My wife tends to overdue this with her Wizards though and invests in Aryam Zay spells to get Trapfinding so she can do Magical traps with her Wizard...
Heal - Nice to have. Use Untrained. buy a healers kit for +1 and take 10 with guidance...
Knowledge (History) - Nice to have, but only need one in the party. If you have it as a class skill, it might be good for your team if you put a point in it.
Knowledge (Local) - see above, but moreso. Rogues should have it.
Knowledge (Nobility) - ??? wow. I've only like seen this skill needed maybe twice, and both times my wife was at the table with a Wizard with one rank in it. (so she took 10 and got something like 25?)...
Linguistics - This is good to pick up odd languages... but I often leave it to wizards/Alchemist (Int based pcs) so I'd say the PC in the party with the high INT...
Perception - I used to feel everyone should have this, but I have sense changed my mind. I have several PCs with very low numbers and no ranks in this at all... they seem to work.
Perform (Dance) - really? huh? I mean, I have 2 bards that have ranks in this, otherwise I have never seen it help (and I even have a Wiz/Rogue that uses it as a day job, but I consider it as useful as my PC with the day job "slave"...
Profession (Lawyer) - lol... no, RotfL. Andoran or Chelaxian?
Profession (Sailor) - Helps maybe. But game breaking? or even helpful?
Sense Motive - Maybe... but I never put ranks in it. (I do have a PC with a 35 sense motive... but even she doesn't have RANKS in the skill)
Sleight of Hand - good for some faction missions. maybe 5%? It is a trained only skill, so I would lump it in with Disable Device.
Survival - good to have one guy with it in the group... but not needed normally. Use magic to replace it... (Endure Elements, etc.)
Swim - Touch of the Sea, airbubble... one of these days one of my PCs will need this... but none have so far (yes, I realize I am on borrowed time)
UMD - I leave this to those PCs with good CHA... mostly I don't think most PCs need it at all.

In-combat skill needs is a (slightly) shorter list:
Bluff - In Combat? Really? we must have different judges. I even run PCs with 30+ Bluffs. How are you useing this in combat?
Intimidate - Even my face PCs don't bother with this. I've found pointing the Max Damage PC at something and letting him hit it for massive damage seems to do better in combat...
Knowledge (Arcana) - nice but not normally needed to finish the mission. But then I often play with a "knowledge expert" in my group, a high INT PC with most knowledges as class skills and at least 1 rank in each. It might be a good idea to drop a rank in each knowledge skill that is a class skill for your PC... but this is often overlooked by some players.
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) - see above.
Knowledge (Nature) - see above.
Knowledge (Religion) - see above.
Knowledge (Planes) - see above.
Knowledge (Local) - see above.
Perception - Someone should have it! more maybe?
Spellcraft - only one team member should have it, the one with a detect magic. But I have often adventured without it, and find it is not that nessessary, so very limited need of this.
Stealth - buy Elixer of Hiding or potions of Invisibility... but then I like the idea of sneaking around the monsters. It seems that not everyone shares my view in this... and it is very judge dependant.

[Finlanderboy]

I agree with nosig

I build my characters to have skills they will be good in. They are specialized in those skills. Because if a situation comes up I am specialized in there is little chance for failure.

I would much rather have teammates that are the same verus all 13s with 1 skill in everythign lamplighters. I also bet the team of specialist have much greater survival chances as well. When that rough DC is needed they are just as worthless.

[Shifty]

Obviously it is good practice to have a group of specialists with a complementary set of strengths setting off to get things done, and that is an excellent way to do things.

The reason there is a conversation about having a mountain of skills is that there are those players who through some amazingly poor luck or circumstances have found themselves completely devoid of a range of key important skills, such as the controversial 'Profession:Painter'. Solutions have been provided to those unfortunates so they don't have to continually find themselves short.

[andreww]

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Here is the crux of the matter, though. If you build a specialist character for PFS, sometimes you will fail in your duties as a Pathfinder. When you build your character, you have to choose which of these things is more important to you as a player.

This ridiculous strawman continues to be untrue and you and shifty should probably stop tormenting the poor thing.

1. PFS adventures often require a wide range of different skills to contribute to success

2. The game gives a number of classes the shaft on available skill points.

3. While there are ways to mitigate some of that it will not be anywhere near the extent necessary to actually cover a significant number of bases.

4. You do not necessarily know who is going to be sitting at your table, especially in Con games, and therefore need to try to cover many bases.

5. Even non specialised members of many classes will often find themselves lacking crucial skills.

I rarely play any character with an Int less than 12, generally prefer humans and will normally take a bonus SP over most other FCB's (bonus oracle/sorcerer spells being largely the only exception). Even so 5SP per level on, say, an Oracle is barely any at all especially when you consider that as a Pathfinder Knowledge skills are not the only consideration. Missions very often require significant stealth, guile, acrobatics and running away filled with mind numbing terror.

So how exactly is my Oracle supposed to divide his 5 SP per level to remain competent in multiple areas bearing in mind that DC's increase by level and putting 1 or 2 points in many different skills is a horrible waste.

[Shifty]

You cover as many bases as you can, and play the cards you have, not the cards you wish you had.

Like any game, the dice or cards can do you over just as much as anything else - so you take the gambles to offset the greatest and most obvious risks, and then on game day at the Con you have a chat around the table and try gap fill some more.

It is astounding that at a con nobody has a back-up character and only has the one to play.

There is also a robust number of suggestions for pumping up skills and their bonuses, I can't see how anyone is getting 'shafted' - if you are so worried about skills, then play a skill monkey. We would have the same exasperation with a skillmonkey getting in and then complaining they couldn't fight as well as the dedicated melee or cast as well as the dedicated casty.

[KestlerGunner]

I agree with the sentiments that it is fun to fail. I do not want Pathfinders ripping through every mission like they're professional accountants sent back to do introductory mathematics.

But the game also rewards preparation for challenges, and sticking to your strengths.

Currently sticking to your strengths means that there are a number of PFS parties that will not have a dedicated historian.

By preparing for the upcoming challenge, aside from magic (which can, you know, subvert reality entirely) the best we can do is hire a 4 prestige 'scholar' whose chance of success at 1-2 tier is 55%. If you can prepare for werewolves, ghosts and swarms, why can't you prepare for... books?

[KestlerGunner]

Shifty wrote:

astounding

You were overwhelmed with amazement?

...
...Really?

Please remember many players have only been playing PFS for a few weeks or months, and many scenarios contain a faction specific focus which limits the range of characters that can get brought in.

Similarly, fighters and rogues are openly mocked on the boards, so their numbers are waning. Wizards never get past level 12, so their numbers are low. Bards get laughed at if they haven't taken an archetype, so they are rare too. (Speaking from my region experience, YMMV) The pool of the skill monkey seems a little half drained.

[Shifty]

I get it that some PF players are new, and to some extent this is generally catered to in the lower tier scenarios - hardcore players are rarely taxed in them and there tends to be a fair bit of forgiveness - a few scenarios notwithstanding.

Guides like Seekers of Secrets and the Field Guide really are excellent reading for those who are starting new, and GM's who have players that have a keen interest in taking the game seriously would be doing these players a service by recommending they read up.

Likewise, sources of information, such as these boards, should also be pointed to as a source of ready advice - people who don't quite have a mastery of what skills they might or might not need are very likely the same people who put together sub optimal or even sub-par builds in many aspects, lack of obscure skills are probably the least of their worries when they sport a character with a pile of 'classic traps'.

If this is a conversation about newbies doing it tough and not having the full set of skills they need, well the good news is that we know they dont need all those skills from the get go - and that a handful will be fine. We have had many suggestions in the thread about how to maximise the available skills (ie Breadth of Experience) right through to tools and equipment to help build that edge.

I am unmoved by the 'you dont know who might be playing at your table at a con', because it suggests there is no capacity to have a conversation at the table BEFORE gameplay starts, and that nobody there will have a back-up, and that even if we accepted all of that worst case happening that the games are set up that if you lack a skill you fail - which completely contradicts the PFS guide which suggests if players solve a problem through other than the listed means they still get credit.

Being mocked on the boards about playing a Fighter or a Rogue is hardly a reason to play one - regardless of what you say or do, someone on the boards will mock you for it - because monkeys like to fling dung. Bards don't need an archetype - its optional - we both know that so why get caught up in the debate?

The party I most recently ran had two fighters up front, and even a rogue. One of the Fighters was also one of the main skill monkeys and had no issues running at L7 and also being a more than capable frontliner.

I'm still waiting to see the Scenario where lacking the one obscure skill pumped to the nines causes an auto-fail. They make it easier, sure, but they dont make failure.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

andreww wrote:

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Here is the crux of the matter, though. If you build a specialist character for PFS, sometimes you will fail in your duties as a Pathfinder. When you build your character, you have to choose which of these things is more important to you as a player.

This ridiculous strawman continues to be untrue and you and shifty should probably stop tormenting the poor thing.

1. PFS adventures often require a wide range of different skills to contribute to success

2. The game gives a number of classes the shaft on available skill points.

3. While there are ways to mitigate some of that it will not be anywhere near the extent necessary to actually cover a significant number of bases.

4. You do not necessarily know who is going to be sitting at your table, especially in Con games, and therefore need to try to cover many bases.

5. Even non specialised members of many classes will often find themselves lacking crucial skills.

I rarely play any character with an Int less than 12, generally prefer humans and will normally take a bonus SP over most other FCB's (bonus oracle/sorcerer spells being largely the only exception). Even so 5SP per level on, say, an Oracle is barely any at all especially when you consider that as a Pathfinder Knowledge skills are not the only consideration. Missions very often require significant stealth, guile, acrobatics and running away filled with mind numbing terror.

So how exactly is my Oracle supposed to divide his 5 SP per level to remain competent in multiple areas bearing in mind that DC's increase by level and putting 1 or 2 points in many different skills is a horrible waste.

This is not a correct use of declaring an argument a Strawman. This requires that you misrepresent someone else's argument. They aren't doing that.

They are just telling you to suck it up.

[Matthew Morris]

Shifty wrote:

You cover as many bases as you can, and play the cards you have, not the cards you wish you had.

It hit me this morning...

This is kind of like the sorcerers vs wizards thing for me.

Both encounter a macGuffin.

Sorcerer: Well, let me see how I can use my tools to get out of this.

Wizard: Blast, if I'd only brought that tool in my spellbook.

In both cases, the sacrifices (prestige, consumables, gold, etc) are made depending on the preference. The wizard can use his recall spell item, or scrolls he purchased, the sorcerer can use scrolls or pages of spell recall, etc.

Look at featherfall or jump for example. Both are extremely situational spells, only useful when you need them. While you can get scrolls or potions of jump a scroll or wand of featherfall won't do you any good. The Wizard can use his recall when falling, or the sorcerer can shell out the gold for a page of spell knowlege. Either way, they are coming up with ways to fill the niche.

There are lots of methods already in PFS to 'shore up' those skills. Taking a level of bard/inquisitor/rogue/ninja/ranger will give you more skill points, the scholar vanity, headbands, or just not maxing out the skill points in a skill.

If you are constantly failing missions because you don't have skill X, then shell out the 4K gold to get a headband to max out skill X. The world won't end, and your concept won't be invalidated, if you have a AC of one point less, or your DCs are 1 lower on your spells. If you're in town, shell out the 1 PP for a +4 skill bonus. Simple.