I have a player who is...insisting may be too strong of a word, but it works- on playing an anti-paladin. I have a series of problems with this (listed in the spoiler), and I'm very much inclined to say no. This is not making me happy, because I'm not one who says 'no' a lot in the game.
So, I want to see if yawl have any advise on how not to hate anti-paladins. Or, closer to what I want, how to have a fun game with an anti-paladin.
* Speaking of evil games: I like my evil PG-13. I don't need to have rape, torture, or mutilation of the body (living, dead, or undead) played out in my games. Its not fun for me. But in almost every evil game I have seen, some one always takes it way too far.
* The name is stupid. This is the only class that defines itself (or named by others) by what is it not. Why "Dark Templar" or "Foul Champion", "Blood Knight" or even "Dark Paladin" was used is beyond me.
* Anti-paladins, and paladins, are the only class that place restrictions on what the rest of the party can be. In this case, over 5 players have to adapt their characters around this one chaotic evil avatar.
* Paladins, by their nature, have to enforce order and thwart evil. Anti-paladins have to thwart good and sow chaos. Anything organized, anything benefiting some one else, or any other examples of things that lead to a prospering society are things an anti-paladin want to destroy. While you can use the "for the greater evil" and all that as a good excuse, it falls flat for me.
* Anti-paladins are the iconic representation of "me first and only". This is not a team player. Pathfinder is a team game.
I don't play paladins where they have to crush evil the instant they see it. I don't set up "auto-falls" for paladins. So the same will go for the anti-paladin ("auto-rise"? for evil paladins?).
I think part of the issue is that I have no concept of an anti-paladin not being a raging psychopath slaughtering everyone he sees and destroying everything he touches.
So, how can I have him in the game that isn't an evil game?
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1) Does the rest of the group prefer a heroic style of game, or do they also want to try something new? Would you be willing to try something different or would it be highly uncomfortable for you? You certainly don't have to allow a character you would be uncomfortable with, but consider how strong your prejudice against evil characters is and what effect it's having on your table. Note that you can motivate a nonheroic party to go on the same sorts of adventures, you just need to make sure there's plenty of personal gain for them and/or that their opponents really tick the PCs off.
2) Do you trust this player not to take it too far if allowed to play an evil character? Ask him why he wants an antipaladin. Is it just to try out the mechanics, does he want a character that's allowed to be selfish and kill casually (as a contrast to your usual heroic game), or does he really want to explore the depths of depravity? If he's OK with PG-13 evil you can tell him the character will be kicked out of the game if he crosses lines X, Y, or Z due to making you uncomfortable.
3) If you don't like the name, then rename it.
4) Do the other players want to play characters that would have a hard time playing with this guy? And don't reflexively answer "no" because there are good-aligned characters involved. I had a fun time once playing a LG inquisitor alongside a CN-borderline-CE sorcerer. The characters got along great - even when I smacked him for disrespecting a lady and he lit me on fire.
5) Consider asking/allowing him to play a LE antipaladin instead of a CE one. LE is better at working well with others because they play by some sort of rules.
6) If you won't require an anti-paladin / foul champion / whatever to kick every puppy he sees, it's a lot easier for the player to pull off an antipaladin that isn't a raging psychopath slaughtering everyone he sees and destroying everything he touches.
Just read the Bhoddi guide on antipaladin and paladin, he gives good roleplaying advice to avoid the raging psychopath type of people.
Just finished reading it. Very good stuff. However, I can't print it or download it, so giving it to my player will be difficult.
At the very least, though, I can take the link and e-mail it to him.
1) Does the rest of the group prefer a heroic style of game, or do they also want to try something new? Would you be willing to try something different or would it be highly uncomfortable for you? You certainly don't have to allow a character you would be uncomfortable with, but consider how strong your prejudice against evil characters is and what effect it's having on your table. Note that you can motivate a nonheroic party to go on the same sorts of adventures, you just need to make sure there's plenty of personal gain for them and/or that their opponents really tick the PCs off.
Dunno about the other players. I really don't want to 'guilt' him into changing, but a that same time I don't think he took anyone else' wishes into account.
I am willing to try a new style of gaming- within reason. "Don't knock it until you try it" is one idea, but I don't need to break my arm to know its a bad idea.
2) Do you trust this player not to take it too far if allowed to play an evil character? Ask him why he wants an antipaladin. Is it just to try out the mechanics, does he want a character that's allowed to be selfish and kill casually (as a contrast to your usual heroic game), or does he really want to explore the depths of depravity? If he's OK with PG-13 evil you can tell him the character will be kicked out of the game if he crosses lines X, Y, or Z due to making you uncomfortable.
These are good points I already thought of, and will be asking about.
3) If you don't like the name, then rename it.
Its the name everyone else knows it by, so calling anti-paladin by another name will only confuse people. Others will call the class (archetype, etc) by what they know it as. I understand this. Its still a stupid name.
4) Do the other players want to play characters that would have a hard time playing with this guy? And don't reflexively answer "no" because there are good-aligned characters involved. I had a fun time once playing a LG inquisitor alongside a CN-borderline-CE sorcerer. The characters got along great - even when I smacked him for disrespecting a lady and he lit me on fire.
This is what is keeping me from absolutely banning it just on the mention. I have played evil characters, or had evil characters in the party. Some of them were great games. Some...weren't. So, we will have to see.
5) Consider asking/allowing him to play a LE antipaladin instead of a CE one. LE is better at working well with others because they play by some sort of rules.
I am thinking about this. I will have to see why he wants to play an anti-paladin, and go from there. If he just wants the abilities, I can adjust. If he wants to play psychopath...that's something else.
6) If you won't require an anti-paladin / foul champion / whatever to kick every puppy he sees, it's a lot easier for the player to pull off an antipaladin that isn't a raging psychopath slaughtering everyone he sees and destroying everything he touches.
I do play looser with a paladin's code that others I have seen, so maybe that will be the trick with its dark twin. Bodhi's guide (already mentioned) has a few examples of how not to be a Chaotic Stupid, so maybe, with that and the advise posted, will be enough to make this work.
As the person who created and maintains my Guide to the Optimal Paladin & Antipaladin, I could answer any specific concerns that you might have. Please feel free to ask.
How can I be of help?
Well, so far, so good. The game went fairly easily, though there was limited time for actual roleplay. For the most part, the crew was focused on fighting the other bad guys. There was some interesting moments where the PC's used violence to get out of problems instead of talking their way out, or simply dealing with their own bad choices. But otherwise, it was okay.
The anti-paladin seems to be focusing on slaughtering anyone and everyone, but only as long as a suitable excuse exists. He did go "paladin hunting" on day one, but his low perception score kept a brawl from occurring.
Again, thank you to all those who made the guides. They have been a big help.