[PFS] Silly questions that made my head hurt.

[Magnus Arcanis]

Hey all,

I'm sadly at the end of my rope and have broken down to ask you fine folks for some answers to questions that are probably pretty obvious to most, but due to various reasons I have talked myself out of common sense. So, I ask you, the more experienced, to set me straight.

*Note: This is for PFS. Houserules need not apply.

1) If I have say... Improved Trip (via a granted class ability), but since I never got combat expertise, can I take Greater Trip (via normal feat selection) provided that my BAB is high enough?

2) Can a Magus Fight Defensively? I was under the impression, that as long as I making an attack, I could do so defensively and gain a bonus to AC. However, Spellstrike and Spell Combat may or may not have the exact wording to support this type of behavior? It looks like they were meant to, but I'm left uncertain that I could go to any DM's table and be confident that it would work for me.

3) Weapon Finesse and Prehensile Hair Hex: Does/can weapon finesse allow me to use my Dex modifier to attack rolls instead of my Intelligence?

4) When does a Flowing Monk's Redirection actually take place? Before the attack? After they attack? Could reposition possible negate an attack?

Also, should there be any official source for answers to any of these questions I would appreciate any links to such.

Thanks in advance.

[Nefreet]

1) Greater Trip has a prerequisite of Combat Expertise (among other things).

2) Spell Combat is only considered a "full attack action" for the purpose of how it interacts with Haste. The Design team is currently considering whether other benefits, like Fighting Defensively, should apply (so, right now, no).

3) Prehensile Hair qualifies for Weapon Finesse (I think it's the other hair that doesn't).

EDIT: just checked, and Weapon Finesse works for either version of Witch Hair, whether it's Prehensile or White.

4) I don't know anything about the Flowing Monk.

[jjaamm]

1- I would say no, unless have all the prereq's

[MurphysParadox]

1) No because Greater Trip still requires Combat Expertise (as Nefreet points out). If feat C requires B and B requires A, but you get B for free, then you could pick C as you meet all of C's requirements. But in this case, C requires B and A and you only have B.

2) Nefreet's answer is correct

3) Yes. The hair counts as a light weapon (as do all natural attacks). Weapon Finesse says you can use dex instead of strength. The hair doesn't use your intellect, but instead uses a strength score equal to your intellect. So attacks with the hair uses strength, which is replaced by dex by the feat.

4) No. The immediate action takes place after you are attacked. If it happened before damage, the ability would have specified "after the attack roll but before damage is rolled" or some such.

This is based off the words in the rules without trying too hard, so I doubt there's any FAQs on the points. The only actually official words for anything are the official FAQs (link in the very top right-most corner of the web page). Anything else, even forum posts, are not actually official... just less unofficial.

[Nefreet]

Also, forgot to catch it earlier, you don't use your Intelligence modifier for attack rolls with your hair anyways. Only if you did would Weapon Finesse not work.

Camel Ninja!

[Magnus Arcanis]

Thank you both for the quick responses!

Nefreet wrote:

1) Greater Trip has a prerequisite of Combat Expertise (among other things).

2) Spell Combat is only considered a "full attack action" for the purpose of how it interacts with Haste. The Design team is currently considering whether other benefits, like Fighting Defensively, should apply (so, right now, no).

3) Prehensile Hair qualifies for Weapon Finesse (I think it's the other hair that doesn't).

EDIT: just checked, and Weapon Finesse works for either version of Witch Hair, whether it's Prehensile or White.

4) I don't know anything about the Flowing Monk.

1) I would also agree no also, but not everwhere you look does it list Combat Expertiese as a pre-req is for Greater trip specifically. IE, in the chart, it doesn't list it. So I'm not sure if the full entry is mentioning it to make it easier, or it actually requires it. Or the chart not mentioning it since it assume that CE pre-req will be implied...

2) Is there a link to about how it works Haste as your response now leads me to ask about how it works with Haste! lol.

3) Sweet.

[Magnus Arcanis]

Nefreet wrote:

Also, forgot to catch it earlier, you don't use your Intelligence modifier for attack rolls with your hair anyways. Only if you did would Weapon Finesse not work.

Camel Ninja!

The prehensile hair hex does say to calculate using Int instead of Str. But since they both it and weapon finesse seem like a replacement, I wasn't sure if I got to choose which stat (between Dex and Int) I could use.

[Nefreet]

HERE is the Spell Combat FAQ.

[Nefreet]

Prehensile Hair wrote:

The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length, and can manipulate her hair as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score.

I never took this quote to mean that Witches used their Int for attack rolls, just that you figured Carrying Capacity using Int, but I've never given it much thought before.

Since it says "can manipulate" (and not "must manipulate"), English tells us that the Witch has the option to not use Int if desired, so Weapon Finesse is still an option.

[Magnus Arcanis]

Nefreet wrote:

HERE is the Spell Combat FAQ.

Thank you, you beautiful person! No wonder I missed this since I was only looking for Fighting Defensively!

Though, I'm curious as to how it is intrepeted in regards to Fighting Defensively. Just based on that question alone, Spell Combat would qualify for FD. Granted, as you said it may change, but...

Since SC is considered to be a full-attack action, and not a full-round action... FD says it can apply to full-attack actions. I know the ruling of how Haste works caused this to change, which I'm fine with, but question clearly extends to all other effects as well so I'm not sure what I'm missing here.

5) I'm separting this into it's own question. Spellstrike and FD, can it work?

[Nefreet]

Magnus Arcanis wrote:

Spellstrike and FD, can it work?

No, for the same reasons a Wizard cannot Fight Defensively when delivering a regular touch attack spell.

I can't find the SKR quote right now where he said the Design Team was considering allowing things like Fighting Defensively with Spell Combat. That was the last I'd heard on it, several months ago. I haven't seen anything since. Perhaps we should start a new FAQ thread for just that question. Would get a quicker response that way.

[Lord_Malkov]

Nefreet wrote:

Magnus Arcanis wrote:

Spellstrike and FD, can it work?

No, for the same reasons a Wizard cannot Fight Defensively when delivering a regular touch attack spell.

I can't find the SKR quote right now where he said the Design Team was considering allowing things like Fighting Defensively with Spell Combat. That was the last I'd heard on it, several months ago. I haven't seen anything since. Perhaps we should start a new FAQ thread for just that question. Would get a quicker response that way.

Yep. Its weird that fighting defensively is its own set of actions, but it definitely is. As a magus, you could always use Combat Expertise instead, since that does not have the same restrictions, but not fighting defensively.

I think there is some justification for the FD action types. Crane Style becoming a great option for grappling would be a bit strange... and then you would have that wonky question about whether an escape attempt (which is an attack roll, as are all CMB checks) could be deflected... and I don't want that to happen.

It also doesn't fit with things like overrun or charge attacks IMO, which puts it in a reasonable category. The spellcombat thing, though... that should probably be just like a regular full-attack and allow the magus to fight defensively.

[Nefreet]

One of the problems with doing that, IIRC, was that a Monk/Magus would then be allowed to perform a Flurry of Blows during Spell Combat, in addition to the extra attack from Haste, and in addition to the extra attack from spending Ki.

Really pretty scary, when you think about it.

[Magnus Arcanis]

Nefreet wrote:

One of the problems with doing that, IIRC, was that a Monk/Magus would then be allowed to perform a Flurry of Blows during Spell Combat, in addition to the extra attack from Haste, and in addition to the extra attack from spending Ki.

Really pretty scary, when you think about it.

Course, -4 for FD, -2 for Spell Combat, -2(?) for Flurry? A million attacks but at a -8(6?) attack bonus (though this can be mitigated obviously)... reminds me of a particular Order of the Stick comic. haha.

[Nefreet]

But take away the FD part and it gets obscene. And that would be just one of the repercussions of treating Spell Combat entirely like a full attack action.

I'm sure other people can come up with other nasty examples.

[Magnus Arcanis]

Nefreet wrote:

But take away the FD part and it gets obscene. And that would be just one of the repercussions of treating Spell Combat entirely like a full attack action.

I'm sure other people can come up with other nasty examples.

True, true. In fact, this was my characters initial concept (and it looks like to me at least that I can continue it) was use Magus with Flurry of Maneuvers and eventually pick up crane wing when I started to need the defense.

I was about to do a lot of retraining until your post Nef. Can't thank you enough for it even if we don't agree that Spell Combat is essentially a full attack action for everything. (i'm gonna keep searching for that quote you mentioned though, just in case)

Course, they may very well change some/all of this, but I'll have to cross that bridge when we come to it I guess.

Apprciate all the help.

[James Risner]

Magnus Arcanis wrote:

1) I would also agree no also, but not everwhere you look does it list Combat Expertiese as a pre-req is for Greater trip specifically

Greater Trip prereqs:

Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.

If you don't have that you can't take it even if you have Improved Trip.

[Xaratherus]

Ah, I see to what Magnus is referring. Take a look at the feat table on the PRD, and you'll notice that while Improved Trip includes Combat Expertise as a requirement, Greater Trip does not.

I'd still go with the specific feat description text. My guess is they didn't repeat it each time on the table due to economy of space.

[Nefreet]

Xaratherus wrote:

My guess is they didn't repeat it each time on the table due to economy of space.

Exactly.

[Bizbag]

The short list is indented where the feat is a prerequisite for all indented feats that follow it.