A couple quick rules questions

[GodCraig]

1) I have a place where my PCs may get jumped by additional monsters of a different sort than they are fighting at the moment (meaning, they are fighting off some rats, and get jumped by a couple of goblins). In that case, how does surprise work? Is it presumed they're not surprised since they are already in a fight, or can they be surprised by just the goblins? etc.

2) The wizard's ray of frost says to roll 1d20 against the touch AC of the monster, are there any modifiers that affect that? if so, which?

Thanks,

[blackbloodtroll]

1) Goblins make Stealth check. PCs make a Perception check(as a DM, I would do this secretly), and if the Goblins beat the PCs, the catch the PCs flat-footed with their first attack.

2) Dexterity modifier, BAB.

[Craig1234]

OK, so presuming the goblins win the check, does that mean that the PCs can continue fighting the rats as normal, but are flat footed against the goblins?

[blackbloodtroll]

Craig1234 wrote:

OK, so presuming the goblins win the check, does that mean that the PCs can continue fighting the rats as normal, but are flat footed against the goblins?

Yes, the are flat-footed against the first attack made by any goblin who beat the PCs Perception.

[Brf]

That is assuming the goblins make their first perception check to notice the PCs battling, and just don't barge in unawares. ;)

[GodCraig]

well, in the scenario, its a watched area, so they would see the PCs fighting the rats and come join for the fun, so there's no storied way that they would be surprised

[dwayne germaine]

Flat footed is a condition that a creature can have if it has not yet acted in combat. Once any creature has gone in combat they cannot become flat footed, unless something gives them that condition again.

This does not happen from other creatures entering combat. The goblins entering combat might get combat advantage against the characters, if they are able to use stealth against the characters perception (probably at a penalty since they are focusing their attention on the rats they are fighting) but it does not make sense to say that they are flat footed against the goblins while not being flat footed against the rats.

[Craig1234]

So then, PCs fight normal against rats, and -X to attack on the goblins? And what would be a good 'X' for that?

[Torbyne]

Not so much a minus to attack the goblins since once you act in a surprise round you are no longer surprised but give the goblins a +2 to hit any player that has not yet acted on the round that the goblins first appear?

[Craig1234]

Ooo, that works, I think

[blackbloodtroll]

dwayne germaine wrote:

Flat footed is a condition that a creature can have if it has not yet acted in combat. Once any creature has gone in combat they cannot become flat footed, unless something gives them that condition again.

This does not happen from other creatures entering combat. The goblins entering combat might get combat advantage against the characters, if they are able to use stealth against the characters perception (probably at a penalty since they are focusing their attention on the rats they are fighting) but it does not make sense to say that they are flat footed against the goblins while not being flat footed against the rats.

They are flat-footed against the first attack. This is really no different than say, a goblin under the effects of the Invisibility spell, that attacks a PC, and catches them flat-footed for the first attack.

After they attack, they break stealth, and any attack after that is as normal.

It really is that easy.

[Orfamay Quest]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

They are flat-footed against the first attack. This is really no different than say, a goblin under the effects of the Invisibility spell, that attacks a PC, and catches them flat-footed for the first attack.

Flat-footed is a technical term that you're misusing.

You are not flat-footed against an invisible opponent, but game-mechanically, you have all the same penalties (you lose your dexterity bonus to AC and can't make AoO against them).

[blackbloodtroll]

Sorry, the defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC against the first attack.

Not "Flat-footed".

Yes, mechanically, it is identical, which is why I sometimes forget they are separate.

There are a few specific instances, in which it is important to differentiate the two though.

So, it's a good thing I was reminded, and noted to the OP.

[Eridan]

2) The roll/AC for the ray of frost is modified by some circumstances like 'shooting' into melee, cover and soft cover.