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Okay, would you like to try creating a standard by which we can measure whether someone is roleplaying their ability scores correctly?Its talking about not roleplaying ability scores.This would work great yes. Except that there are people who believe that the game mechanic penalty for the low ability score is enough, so they can roleplay their characters anyway they fell like even when it doesnt coincide with their ability scores. They also believe taking ranks in skills completely wipeout their ability score penalties, i.e. ranks in diplomacy means they can completely ignore their cha score.From this, about 1/2 a page up.
It seems to insinuate that even after apply skill points that the character should still be hindered in some fashion.
Sure. Your group gets together and decides what is exceptable.
Of course this is just my opinion.
Okay, would you like to try creating a standard by which we can measure whether someone is roleplaying their ability scores correctly?Its talking about not roleplaying ability scores.This would work great yes. Except that there are people who believe that the game mechanic penalty for the low ability score is enough, so they can roleplay their characters anyway they fell like even when it doesnt coincide with their ability scores. They also believe taking ranks in skills completely wipeout their ability score penalties, i.e. ranks in diplomacy means they can completely ignore their cha score.From this, about 1/2 a page up.
It seems to insinuate that even after apply skill points that the character should still be hindered in some fashion.
Sure. Your group gets together and decides what is exceptable.
Of course this is just my opinion.
But how do you do that?
How do you define what is appropriate for a -1 Cha modifier, and what that difference is from a 0 Cha modifier? What are the differences that you can point at and say "that is inappropriate." You can give examples from your own table if you like.
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Certainly. "If the GM is happy with it." Like, oh, I don't know, literally everything else in the game?
Okay, would you like to try creating a standard by which we can measure whether someone is roleplaying their ability scores correctly?
You'll never convince me of anything with that line of reasoning. Your welcome to it, but basically it's a non-starter in a conversation for me. Part of the reason, is because if I'm a player at the table, I feel disrespected that my opinion carries no weight. Roleplaying is a collaborative process, not a dictatorial one. If you want to dictate to me, just do a spoken word story.
You'll never convince me of anything with that line of reasoning. Your welcome to it, but basically it's a non-starter in a conversation for me. Part of the reason, is because if I'm a player at the table, I feel disrespected that my opinion carries no weight. Roleplaying is a collaborative process, not a dictatorial one. If you want to dictate to me, just do a spoken word story.Certainly. "If the GM is happy with it." Like, oh, I don't know, literally everything else in the game?
Okay, would you like to try creating a standard by which we can measure whether someone is roleplaying their ability scores correctly?
Well, I'm glad you feel that your opinion should carry weight about what armor class the monster of the day has.
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Okay, would you like to try creating a standard by which we can measure whether someone is roleplaying their ability scores correctly?Its talking about not roleplaying ability scores.This would work great yes. Except that there are people who believe that the game mechanic penalty for the low ability score is enough, so they can roleplay their characters anyway they fell like even when it doesnt coincide with their ability scores. They also believe taking ranks in skills completely wipeout their ability score penalties, i.e. ranks in diplomacy means they can completely ignore their cha score.From this, about 1/2 a page up.
It seems to insinuate that even after apply skill points that the character should still be hindered in some fashion.
Sure. Your group gets together and decides what is exceptable.
Of course this is just my opinion.
But how do you do that?
How do you define what is appropriate for a -1 Cha modifier, and what that difference is from a 0 Cha modifier? What are the differences that you can point at and say "that is inappropriate." You can give examples from your own table if you like.
The first 2 score points above or below are admittedly the hardest. Pick one or more of the cha discription components (not the leadership one since that one is mostly game mechanics) let the group know how it applies. Lets do personality, you let the group know that your character has a slightly below average cha and explain that as being shy. Now if the player is REALLY good at acting they can roleplay it. Otherwise its understood why his cha is below average and just let the 'social' skills cover it.
Explaining how your ability scores are reflected in your character helps the group 'see' the character even if you player isnt good at playing a role.
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Outside of INT I don't think any of the ability scores actually contribute to role play and I'll tell you why
An intelligent character will know more than an unintelligent character this is true and makes sense both in real life and in any game that has a concept for intelligence.
Str - how strong you are....outside of mechanics its fluff. You can be a big strong fat guy or a big muscle head with 2% body fat
Dex - how agile and flexible you are (how fast your reactions are). Again. I've seen fat people who can touch their toes while standing without bending at the knee but know skinny people who are lucking if they can reach an inch past their knees without bending at the knee. I also know fairly decent athletes who have to learn the "timing of events" because their reflexes are mediocre
Con- how tough and resounding a character is..Physical fortitude. Ok I take back my previous statement. People that look sickly tend not to be very hardy
Int- you either know it or you don’t you either have the capability to learn quickly or you struggle
Wis- perception, common sense, intuition - I know a lot of people who believe themselves wiser then they actually are. I also know a lot of people who wouldn't notice a polar bear raging through their house unless it walked in front of the TV
Cha- everyone knows a douche who thinks they are rico swave. Everyone knows a totally ugly person who is the nicest and funniest person they have ever met. Everyone knows someone who is drop dead gorgeous but a total prick.
All of the skill roles are representative of either learned skills or skills acquired through trial and error/observation of others. A totally jerk can learn to have a silvered tongue but also can’t totally hide the fact they are a jerk (hence why someone with a low Cha score is going to have a harder time hitting Cha based skill DCs than someone with a decent Cha score).
Ability scores represent the raw talent or foundation all other things are based off of. You can use them as a general guideline but you really don’t have to except when it comes to INT (which is really a matter of avoiding metagaming). Even with a low Con score. Everyone knows a total sissy who thinks they are tough so if you want to be the main line fighter with a low con score you totally can but be prepared for spending a lot of time dying on the floor.
Okay, would you like to try creating a standard by which we can measure whether someone is roleplaying their ability scores correctly?Its talking about not roleplaying ability scores.This would work great yes. Except that there are people who believe that the game mechanic penalty for the low ability score is enough, so they can roleplay their characters anyway they fell like even when it doesnt coincide with their ability scores. They also believe taking ranks in skills completely wipeout their ability score penalties, i.e. ranks in diplomacy means they can completely ignore their cha score.From this, about 1/2 a page up.
It seems to insinuate that even after apply skill points that the character should still be hindered in some fashion.
Sure. Your group gets together and decides what is exceptable.
Of course this is just my opinion.
But how do you do that?
How do you define what is appropriate for a -1 Cha modifier, and what that difference is from a 0 Cha modifier? What are the differences that you can point at and say "that is inappropriate." You can give examples from your own table if you like.
The first 2 score points above or below are admittedly the hardest. Pick one or more of the cha discription components (not the leadership one since that one is mostly game mechanics) let the group know how it applies. Lets do personality, you let the group know that your character has a slightly below average cha and explain that as being shy. Now if the player is REALLY good at acting they can roleplay it. Otherwise its understood why his cha is below average and just let the 'social' skills cover it.
Explaining how your ability scores are reflected in your character helps the group 'see' the character even if you player isnt good at playing a role.
But how would you quantify if someone is or isn't successfully roleplaying a -1 Cha mod.
You'll never convince me of anything with that line of reasoning. Your welcome to it, but basically it's a non-starter in a conversation for me. Part of the reason, is because if I'm a player at the table, I feel disrespected that my opinion carries no weight. Roleplaying is a collaborative process, not a dictatorial one. If you want to dictate to me, just do a spoken word story.Certainly. "If the GM is happy with it." Like, oh, I don't know, literally everything else in the game?
Okay, would you like to try creating a standard by which we can measure whether someone is roleplaying their ability scores correctly?
Well, I'm glad you feel that your opinion should carry weight about what armor class the monster of the day has.
Please bold where I said I want to determine monster stats. If you can't bold it, I'd appreciate if you retract your implication that that is what I said. You don't get to put words in my mouth and debate against them.
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@irontruth
Is this what you want to hear? I. Dont. Know. If someone with an 8-9 cha gives any type of discription of their character that has some type of minor 'social' ?hindrance?, maybe during intitial social encounters they are somewhat shy. If your talking about actually acting out a minor hindrance then I dont know. Personally I've never seen an RPer who was REALLY good at acting.
@irontruth
Is this what you want to hear? I. Dont. Know. If someone with an 8-9 cha gives any type of discription of their character that has some type of minor 'social' ?hindrance?, maybe during intitial social encounters they are somewhat shy. If your talking about actually acting out a minor hindrance then I dont know. Personally I've never seen an RPer who was REALLY good at acting.
Did you have a time where a player at your table wasn't RP'ing their scores to your satisfaction? Were you able to resolve and improve RP at the table?
Not exactly an example that pertains to this (or to bad roleplaying) but we've had an alignment discussion at my table recently. One guy was playing a LG character. His family had been killed by bandits, they cut out his tongue and left him for dead. He was now tracking them down and exacting revenge.
After a couple of scenes were he was brutal and unpredictable, I warned him that he might be facing an alignment shift. It continued, so I moved him 1 step, to LN. It doesn't really fit his behavior still, but I see it as an evolution of his characters soul. Eventually his alignment will catch up to his actions, but since he's not a cleric or paladin, it's going slow. During a more recent scene he had the option to brutally kill one of the bandits, I reminded him of the path he was on, not to deter him, but just to help anchor his decisions. He did some bad things to the guy, but he let him live. He might not turn CE after all.
It doesn't quite fit the mold of what you're talking about though, I'm just sharing a story about RP'ing and talking with the player to help make a story that makes sense for both of us and using tools within the game to help us do that.
It's easy to tell the difference between a Charisma of 5 and 18. But when we want to talk about inappropriately playing a character, we need to know the difference between an 8 and 10 as well. If we can't define that difference, I'm not sure how we can expect people to meet a standard that requires some sort of definition to be measured against.
Please bold where I said I want to determine monster stats. If you can't bold it, I'd appreciate if you retract your implication that that is what I said. You don't get to put words in my mouth and debate against them.
I stand by my writing. You want your opinion to carry weight, and I point out that, in general, the rules themselves gainsay you.
More specifically, players offer opinions, GMs make rulings.
Please bold where I said I want to determine monster stats. If you can't bold it, I'd appreciate if you retract your implication that that is what I said. You don't get to put words in my mouth and debate against them.
I stand by my writing. You want your opinion to carry weight, and I point out that, in general, the rules themselves gainsay you.
More specifically, players offer opinions, GMs make rulings.
You've made a claim that as a player, I want control over monster stats. I'm challenging you to bold where I said that. If you want to debate me on what I say, that's fine, but debate me on things that I say.
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Please bold where I said I want to determine monster stats. If you can't bold it, I'd appreciate if you retract your implication that that is what I said. You don't get to put words in my mouth and debate against them.
I stand by my writing. You want your opinion to carry weight, and I point out that, in general, the rules themselves gainsay you.
More specifically, players offer opinions, GMs make rulings.
The DM has responsibility for the rules and creating the adventure/campaign/world.
The player has responsibility for creating the personality of his PC and the role-playing thereof.
It's as wrong for the DM to dictate to a player how to role-play his PC as it is for a player to dictate to the DM what the BBEG's AC is.
You've made a claim that as a player, I want control over monster stats. I'm challenging you to bold where I said that. If you want to debate me on what I say, that's fine, but debate me on things that I say.
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
The DM has responsibility for the rules and creating and managing the adventure/campaign/world.
I made a minor emendation there. If the player is breaking the world's verisimilitude, the DM ha the [i]responsibility[i] to fix it.
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The DM has responsibility for the rules and creating and managing the adventure/campaign/world.
I made a minor emendation there. If the player is breaking the world's verisimilitude, the DM ha the [i]responsibility[i] to fix it.
The ultimate authority on the personality of the PC, and how that PC is played, lies with the player and not the DM!
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
You've made a claim that as a player, I want control over monster stats. I'm challenging you to bold where I said that. If you want to debate me on what I say, that's fine, but debate me on things that I say.
So, you don't actually want to talk to me, you just want to talk at me. Got it.
Feel free to write some more strawmen and argue against them.
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'Your PC only has 7 Int, therefore he cannot have any good ideas and you're playing your character wrong if you do!'And yet you're giving in-game punishments to those who's idea of their own PC doesn't match your's!Give me some examples of this.
Where's the quote that says I said this. I personally have never said this.
I have posted a question. If a player comes up with an answer to a game impasse, that no other player did, and that players character is not of the 'smart' variety, should the player give the answer to another player whose character is of the 'smart' variety so his character can answer or should his own character answer it?
I have posted a question. If a player comes up with an answer to a game impasse, that no other player did, and that players character is not of the 'smart' variety, should the player give the answer to another player whose character is of the 'smart' variety so his character can answer or should his own character answer it?
which is the greater sin? Breaking character to progress the plot and beat the challenge? or breaking character to Speak out of character and then let another character repeat it 'in a smarter way'?
I played a wookie character once in a star wars game where only one person could actually 'understand' me. Everything I said or did at the table had to be translated through someone else,
I found the 'constant repeating' to REALLY draw me out of the game and break that Vermisltude that people talk about. It was a distraction, and it didn't take long to retire that character.
I have since gone on to use him as cautionary tale to anyone ever thinking about playing 'mute' characters
Every game table has trouble keeping people 'on task' or 'in character' and there's always a certain amount of 'out of character' stuff they do...
Frankly, I've never seen a DM WANT there to be MORE of it by suggesting 'passing info to the smart guy'...
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@irontruth
Is this what you want to hear? I. Dont. Know. If someone with an 8-9 cha gives any type of discription of their character that has some type of minor 'social' ?hindrance?, maybe during intitial social encounters they are somewhat shy. If your talking about actually acting out a minor hindrance then I dont know. Personally I've never seen an RPer who was REALLY good at acting.
Did you have a time where a player at your table wasn't RP'ing their scores to your satisfaction? Were you able to resolve and improve RP at the table?
Not exactly an example that pertains to this (or to bad roleplaying) but we've had an alignment discussion at my table recently. One guy was playing a LG character. His family had been killed by bandits, they cut out his tongue and left him for dead. He was now tracking them down and exacting revenge.
After a couple of scenes were he was brutal and unpredictable, I warned him that he might be facing an alignment shift. It continued, so I moved him 1 step, to LN. It doesn't really fit his behavior still, but I see it as an evolution of his characters soul. Eventually his alignment will catch up to his actions, but since he's not a cleric or paladin, it's going slow. During a more recent scene he had the option to brutally kill one of the bandits, I reminded him of the path he was on, not to deter him, but just to help anchor his decisions. He did some bad things to the guy, but he let him live. He might not turn CE after all.
It doesn't quite fit the mold of what you're talking about though, I'm just sharing a story about RP'ing and talking with the player to help make a story that makes sense for both of us and using tools within the game to help us do that.
It's easy to tell the difference between a Charisma of 5 and 18. But when we want to talk about inappropriately playing a character, we need to know the difference between an 8 and 10 as well. If we can't define that difference, I'm not sure how we...
Working it out in the group is probably the best way. Everyone one could decided that an 8-9 or 12-13 would be to hard to roleplay easily and just hand wave it, or as a group they could come up with something that everyone though would work.
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'Your PC only has 7 Int, therefore he cannot have any good ideas and you're playing your character wrong if you do!'And yet you're giving in-game punishments to those who's idea of their own PC doesn't match your's!Give me some examples of this.Where's the quote that says I said this. I personally have never said this.
I have posted a question. If a player comes up with an answer to a game impasse, that no other player did, and that players character is not of the 'smart' variety, should the player give the answer to another player whose character is of the 'smart' variety so his character can answer or should his own character answer it?
I was using 'you' in the plural sense; your side of the debate.
Onto the latest question, although an individual could use either way, my expectation is that the player would naturally speak through his own PC, not someone else's.
As mentioned before, it's both unrealistic and un-fun to suppose that the less smart never have ideas.
For me, I think that those players who eschew role-playing their low scores are missing out on some of the fun of role-playimg, but it's not my business to tell them how to have fun (as long as it's not hurting anyone else's good time). Why should a player playing smarter than his character spoil my day? Why should it spoil your day? The DM's day?
...@irontruth
Is this what you want to hear? I. Dont. Know. If someone with an 8-9 cha gives any type of discription of their character that has some type of minor 'social' ?hindrance?, maybe during intitial social encounters they are somewhat shy. If your talking about actually acting out a minor hindrance then I dont know. Personally I've never seen an RPer who was REALLY good at acting.
Did you have a time where a player at your table wasn't RP'ing their scores to your satisfaction? Were you able to resolve and improve RP at the table?
Not exactly an example that pertains to this (or to bad roleplaying) but we've had an alignment discussion at my table recently. One guy was playing a LG character. His family had been killed by bandits, they cut out his tongue and left him for dead. He was now tracking them down and exacting revenge.
After a couple of scenes were he was brutal and unpredictable, I warned him that he might be facing an alignment shift. It continued, so I moved him 1 step, to LN. It doesn't really fit his behavior still, but I see it as an evolution of his characters soul. Eventually his alignment will catch up to his actions, but since he's not a cleric or paladin, it's going slow. During a more recent scene he had the option to brutally kill one of the bandits, I reminded him of the path he was on, not to deter him, but just to help anchor his decisions. He did some bad things to the guy, but he let him live. He might not turn CE after all.
It doesn't quite fit the mold of what you're talking about though, I'm just sharing a story about RP'ing and talking with the player to help make a story that makes sense for both of us and using tools within the game to help us do that.
It's easy to tell the difference between a Charisma of 5 and 18. But when we want to talk about inappropriately playing a character, we need to know the difference between an 8 and 10 as well. If we can't define that
I'm not just digging here to be adversarial. I'm digging because I think there are better ways to think about this.
I find ability scores to be a clumsy way to enforce (not a great word choice, but I'll use it anyway) roleplaying. They can work as inspiration, but even then they tend to be vague. I use other methods to help inspire RP at my table.
My recent campaign, before characters had stats assigned to them we went through a process. I gave everyone two categories, and they picked one option from each. One was backgrounds, kind of a what you did before you became an adventurer. The second was a "cause", a reason why you were involved in the campaign. Each option had 3 questions and I used the answer to help inspire the story. They were intended to be kind of vague, you could use them for any class/race combo, because that would be information revealed in the answers.
Each player also had a sense of WHO their character was before assigning stats. My method was far from perfect, it was the first time I had tried it. I borrowed the concept from several other games, though one was outright stealing. Add to that my lack of experience at using the answers to truly inform the story and it's had some hiccups, but I'd do it again if given the choice.
Okay, no worries. You don't really seem that interested in discussing this topic.
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Okay, no worries. You don't really seem that interested in discussing this topic.
I'm willing to discuss things, I'm just not sure what your looking for. I'm plenty willing to admit I'm not brightest person in the area but I will try to help this discussion if I can.
I dont think any game has come up with an idea of how to handle ability scores that everyone agrees works.