Clarification on Orc bites

[Torbyne]

Hello everyone! I am again confused when planning out a potential Half-Orc Ranger but i hope this will be a much simpler matter to address than my last attempt. *ahem*

Razortusk, reads:

Your powerful jaws and steely teeth are deadly enough to give you a bite attack.

Prerequisite: Half-orc.

Benefit: You can make a bite attack for 1d4 points of damage, plus your Strength modifier. You’re considered proficient in this attack and can apply feats or effects appropriate to natural attacks to it. If used as part of a full attack action, the bite is considered a secondary attack and is made at your full base attack bonus –5, and adds half your Strength modifier to damage.

Razortusk is a step down to the D4 compared to a normal medium sized bite of D6 but includes all physical damage types, a decent step up from the Toothy trait which is only piercing. But it also seems to not be a full natural attack with the part about any full attack actions relegating it to a secondary attack. That is a big mark against the feat for me.

I am confused on the wording here, RAW seems clear razortusk is a pseudo natural attack with unique rules as to how it functions but it also looks like a copy and paste of parts of the rules about natural attacks and how they combine with manufactured weapon attacks. which would be the normal options of anyone looking at the feat.

finally my clarification request:

"Is the Razortusk feat intended to function as a normal, primary, natural attack or to follow its unique wording as a secondary bite even if used with other natural attack options (i.e. claws)"

(For those keeping track i have updated my concept for the feral ranger as a Guide/Skirmisher... possibly with a tail but probably not.)

[Nefreet]

Instead of spending a feat, just take the trait "Tusked". It gives you a primary bite attack for 1d4 (which means STR x1.5 if it's your only attack).

If you're still set on spending a feat, just take Additional Traits and grab Tusked plus something else.

[Torbyne]

Do you mean the "toothy" alternate racial trait? I didn't think you could pick up any of those after character creation. I was hoping there was a fluke in the wording of razortusk so I could grab sacred tattoo and a primary bite attack but, yeah, if razortusk is supposed to be so much weaker than I'll forgo the bonus to saves for the less nerfed bite of toothy. (Why is that one piercing only anyways?)

[Nefreet]

No, I mean "Tusked".

It's a Race Trait from Orcs of Golarion, although I can't link archivesofnethys or d20pfsrd from my work's firewall.

You can take it via the Additional Traits feat after character creation, assuming you haven't already taken a Race Trait.

[DesolateHarmony]

Archive of Nethys link

PFS Legal Tusked
Source Orcs of Golarion pg. 23
Category Race
Requirement(s) Half-Orc, Orc
Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.

[Bizbag]

Torbyne, the feat assumes your full attack will be made with weapons, since that's what most characters do. When you mix weapons with natural attacks, natural attacks are always treated as secondary.

If you are making a full attack with all natural weapons, like a Draconic bloodline Sorcerer making claw attacks, use the normal rules for natural attacks; in this case, bites and claws are all primary.

That said, the wording of the feat suggests it's an exception. I think that's silly, since it's way over-complicated, especially compared to other feats, traits, or class abilities that grant natural attacks.

[Krodjin]

Go with the alternate racial trait "toothy" if you are planning on combining it with additional natural attacks (like if you choose natural weapon combat style and select Aspect of the Beast > Claws of the Beast).

That way all 3 natural attacks are full BAB + full STR mod to damage, and you avoid any confusion from ANY GM about whether or not the bite attacks from either Tusked or Razortusk should remain 'primary' attacks as part of a full-attack with natural weapons...

They say Specific trumps General and in this case both Tusked and Razortusk specifically say they become secondary attacks at BAB -5 and only .5x STR to damage

[Torbyne]

Thanks all! i didnt even know about Tusked... Seems like there are a lot of ways to approach the subject and i didnt even think massive tusks were much associated to orcs before starting this build.

Krodjin, it looks like you have the right of it, giving up sacred tattoo for a safer bite build is the best way to go. Though it will still bug me that razortusk *looks* like its supposed to be a primary natural attack.

[Krodjin]

Always talk to your GM. I'd probably allow it - using Toothy as the proof that it isn't over powered to have a primary bite attack,

Question - are you going the Natural Weapon route? Is this a PFS game?

[Torbyne]

Natural weapons, and its not a PFS game but the GM tends to side with official rulings where ever he can and i want to understand this all myself before i spring a natural attack character on him. He hasnt seen one before you see and doesnt like the idea of multiple, high attack bonus attacks at early levels, but he is willing to let me try it if we agree i am following the rules for it.

So far i am looking at a Half-Orc Guide/Skirmisher/Ranger with a bite at level one and two claws at level two. I started that whole mess about tails, sorry for that, but when i was looking at the character without it i was just coming up with Blanka from street fighter and thought the kobold stuff fit the theme and made it nicely different. Either way, three primary natural attacks and power attack should carry me well enough.

[Krodjin]

I've played a Guide up to level 15 so far - and to be honest, now that Instant Enemy is available I kind of regret giving up Favoured Enemy... A natural weapon fighter would also be well served to have a flank buddy animal companion (and the dirty fighter trait). So I would give some more though to the Guide... Or not - just saying.

The big thing you want to clear with your GM is the Multiattack feat... In PFS a Ranger can take it at level 10. Which is nice because it's at level 11 when the regular weapon users and two weapon fighters stat to surpass you In terms of number of attacks.

Now, your GM may let you take it sooner as you will meet the pre-requisites...

It's conceivable that with Multiattack at 10 and Unarmed Strike at 11th you could be doing
Claw+9/claw+9/bite+9/UAS+9/UAS+4/UAS-1

Of course your natural attacks are now .5 STR mod on account of being secondary. But you would get a lot of mileage out of an Amulet of Mighty Fists! If you can somehow get Dragon Style/Ferocity/& Feral Combat training you're back in business with your natural attacks & UAS all getting a solid increase to damage...

[Torbyne]

Interesting thought... maybe dip Archaeologist at level six and finish up with Dragon Disciple if Guide doesn't hold up as well? That is veering into more Advice than Rules though, but thanks for your input!

[Krodjin]

Yeah it's one of those builds that can go all sorts of different ways and get require quite a few feats - have fun whichever way you go!