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Along with the Oracle the Sorcerer's fluff implies more of a lack of choice when it comes to class. You are born with a bloodline and should you train for it you find you have a talent for arcane magic. If you do not train for it this can be simply represented as the Eldritch Heritage feat line. But what If that's not enough? What happens when you start training the powers of your blood but you don't want to just be a hot wizard?
I'm trying to build a homebrew class for my campaigns that represents manifestations of bloodlines but not as an actual caster. The change to give sorcerers bloodlines opened up a cool concept but the concept is stuck on a wizard's frame and doesn't go far past that. There are two types of spell-lite sorcerers already around that I know of, The Scourge for Rogue Genius Game's Beyond Bloodlines 3pp, and the upcoming Bloodrager from the Advanced Class Guide, but I think they don't do enough to represent the concepts I have in mind. The Scourge is still at it's core more caster or gish than anything that explores bloodlines and what can be done with them. The Bloodrager is tainted with a barbarian's rage and comes off more of a arcane paladin than an entity of it's blood.
I think the concept of a person powered by it's blood is too broad to simply be another caster and drives out other concepts like the Targaryans of Game of Thrones, Yuske Urameshi of Yu-Yu Hakusho, or Zentratti decendants from Macross.
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Overall I'm asking for help and suggestions on how to build this. This is just the beginning of building it and I'll post progress. I want to try to make something other people would play and isn't too powerful or too weak. The end result I'll post and put it in my houserules doc, and that is the extent of my plans for the class. Below is the basic idea of what I'm thinking.
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The skeleton I'm starting with is d8 hit die, 3/4 BAB, Good Fort and Will, 4+Int skill ranks per level. Even though that backbone is very crowded I think trying to build it at full BAB would pigeon-hole it into a martial class when my hopes is to let it be able to encompass roles based on bloodline choice.
My first instinct is to work with existing bloodlines. It cuts out a lot of work and whenever the sorcerer gets a new bloodline, this class gets a new bloodline. The downside is that I don't want this to be a caster so any spellcasting related abilities or Bloodline arcana isn't relevant and without spells they lose out on bloodline spells.
One possible solution is to give it a 'blood pool' of points to spend on casting it's bonus spells as spell-like abilities, effectively making it's bonus spells the only spells that it casts. Additionally a blood pool opens up other class features. This may make it feel too much like an alternate type of caster so I'm reluctant until I start to playtest. I am not opposed to spell-like abilities but a 9 spell sorcerer seems weird. Also the bonus feats and arcana don't always line up with the bonus spells making things a bit more difficult to manage.
Alternatively I could make new Bloodline entries for the class. It would take more work on my part (especially for a class that I don't intend to sell) but may make a more unique class even if I simply make them copies or mixtures of existing bloodlines sans the arcana and bonus spells due to the added features to replace them. I'd probably still include a blood pool because grit/arcane pools/ki pools open up a lot of possibilities including cloning bonus spells as blood pool abilities.
Speaking of Blood Pools the obvious ability to base it on is Charisma but I was thinking of Constitution as well. Blood Pool could be used on lists of abilities that can be chosen depending on bloodlines each representing a manifestation of the progenitor's abilities. Possibly taking a lot from the universal monster rules from the bestiaries. Possibly polymorh type abilities at some point.
The name for the class eludes me. In my head the biggest candidate is Paragon but the list includes Exemplar, Scion, and Progeny are on the list.
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And that's all I got. Right now I'm looking at bloodlines and similar classes for ideas of how to balance things and work things out and I'd love suggestions on how to work this out, insight on some design philosophy ect.
So your approach was to make a base class per bloodline?
What issues did you run into in regards to pool points?
I'll shoe you numbers when I start to write them but at the moment I'm on a tablet. I'd like to see yours and hear your design methods behind them.
I have a game in ten mins so I'll have to reply to everything tomorrow but I wanted to leave off asking opinions about the name of the class so I can stop calling it "The Class"
This is a pretty cool idea. The simplest way to go about doing this, I think, would be to give players bloodline abilities as if they were leveling in Sorcerer, regardless of their actual class. Not a stand alone class, but more of a character path or add-on ability.
This is a pretty cool idea. The simplest way to go about doing this, I think, would be to give players bloodline abilities as if they were leveling in Sorcerer, regardless of their actual class. Not a stand alone class, but more of a character path or add-on ability.
That brings up one idea I had before but felt it took too much work; basically chains of 5 feats over 20 levels that represent monster templates that advance in steps. the first feat would be a watered down template and each feat past that advances the template. All the feats would be of a 'monster training' subtype or something like that. But in the end it felt like balancing them so that they wouldn't be sorely broken with certain classes was so much work and the whole thing devolved into trees, like Fiend-blood split into daemon/demon/devil making 5 feats into 13 feats.
Okay the basic outline that I came up with is a little dry and I could use some advice on how to spice things up. So far this draft is pretty 'by the books'
This class, which for right now will be called an Exemplar, will have medium BAB, Good Fort and Will saves, a d8 hit die and 4+INT skills per level. This is chosen for the reasons I mentioned in the first post.
The Class skills are the same as the Sorcerer.
At first level the Exemplar gains Detect Magic as a spell-like ability.
At first level the Exemplar gains a pool of 'Blood Points'. The number of points in an Exemplar's Blood Pool is equal to 1/2 her level + her Charisma modifier.
At first level the Exemplar gets the ability to produce evidence of the taint in her blood. As a standard action by spending 1 point from her Blood Pool an Exemplar may make a melee touch attack (Su) that deals 1d6 of damage and does not incur an attack of opportunity. I am on the fence on what type of damage this would be. This damage increases by 1d6 at 3rd level and every other level after that.
I basically wanted a very basic baseline ability. It is decidedly generic because I want the bloodlines to alter or add to it much like how bloodline arcana alter spells. An odd level growing d6 damage seemed like a standard throughout a number of classes so this became the standard. In the future I will draw inspiration from the Warlock class as to how to modify these. I am on the fence as to whether or not to allow this touch attack to be able to be delivered with melee weapons. Any saving throws would likely be level 10 + Exemplar lvl + CHA.
At First level the Exemplar chooses a Bloodline. I may want to change the name to something else to differentiate things a bit and not run into terminology issues in the rules. The bloodlines do several things.
1. at first level they modify the touch attack in some way. For example a Fire Elemental Bloodline may allow the damage to be dealt as fire damage, or a Celestial Bloodline may allow the Exemplar to instead heal with the touch attack for the amount of damage it would deal. alternatively it may grant new abilities with the touch attack damage as the baseline.
2. at 2nd level and every 4rth level beyond that the Bloodline grants new abilities. These will likely be static things that add to what the touch attack can do or represent some kind of advantage gained from a bodily change.
3. Contain a list of feats and abilities that the Exemplar can gain with the 'Endowment' Ability (see Below)
4. At first level makes certain skills class skills. Most likely it will be one skill but may be more.
The last ability I had in mind was 'Endowments'. At 1st, 4th and every four levels beyond the 4th the Exemplar would get an Endowment from a list detailed in her bloodline. These are likely things that can be activated by spending points from the Blood Pool. These will be represented by abilities that mimic Feats, Monster feats, Spells and Evolutions.
Note: I am still deciding whether the Bloodlines or Endowments should use the Blood Pool. The advantage of using Bloodline powers that mimic spells and expend blood points is that Endowments essentially become talents/bonus feats It may not make too much of a difference considering that they both even out to getting 5 abilities each.
Currently working on some example bloodlines so that I can make an actual class features listing.
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I think this class is going to be very underwhelming without significant adjustments. At the moment it doesnt actually do anything. Its not a frontline fighter (medium bab, hp, and presumably no or limited armor, and weapon proficiencies), its not a caster (doesnt have spells) and not a skill monkey (though has 4+int skills the sorceror has a very limited skill set).
You need to decide where this class is going to fit in to a typical party or you will end up with a distorted mess (sort of like the core monk).
If for instance the focus of this class is going to be that touch attack and modifieing it, then it needs a whole heck of alot more uses per day. Something more akin to rounds of rage or bardic performance, with the option to get more through other resources. I would also separate out the blood pool (which persumably is used to activate the bloodline modifications) and the touch attack. Again, this touch attack is their primary resource, draining it to use their other class abilities isnt a great idea. While other resources are similarly limited (like an alchemists bombs for istances) those classes have lots of other resources to do things. This guy is pretty much entirely relying on this touch attack as it stands to actively do things.
It probably will also need some kind of basic defensive ability (assuming it cant wear armor) since it needs to get into melee, it cant do so with no AC bonuses and D8 hit dice. Something like:
Arcane Touch: At first level an exemplare gains a touch attack. This attack does 1d6 points of (x) damage. He can uses this touch attack a number of times equal to 3+his charisma modifier. At second level and every 2 levels after that, he gains an additional 2 uses of this touch attack. At 3rd level and every 2 levels after that, the damage of this touch attack increases by 1d6 (you might want to slow this progression a bit).
I forgot about the profficiencies.
I assume all simple weapons and up to medium armor is the norm. I imagined that the bloodlines would grant weapon proficiencies but I have no real plan for what to make it proficient with and would like suggestions.
The skill set would be expanded by the bloodlines but its definitely not a skill monkey at 4+INT skills. If I were to place it in a role I would try to put it somewhere between a support combatant and a self buffing frontliner.
I think your third paragraph is a good argument for an alternative idea where instead of a pool of points the Exemplar would gain an 'altered state' where it gains all the features from it's bloodline for x-rounds a day. I was reluctant to go that direction because Paizo's design seems to shift away from rounds per day and into pool points but I'd like to hear arguments otherwise.
If so I think having some kind of scaling deflection bonus while in this state would work out.
I don't think I want to scale back the touch attack mostly because as a standard action it is a pretty weak damage progression.
My first instinct would be to look at the dragon disciple PrC. Would your 20 level class look like Dragon Disciple if they chose draconic bloodline?
I'm just tossing that out there for right now, I will put some more thought in and come back soon.
A class wear you pick up mutations and special abilities appropriate to your bloodline might work. A 'sorcerer' slowly transforms into a dragon over 20 levels, or becomes like an angel or demon, that kind of thing.
Just produce a list of generic mutations and powers to choose from give each bloodline a few specific powers and have fun letting the player customize the being they transform into.
A class wear you pick up mutations and special abilities appropriate to your bloodline might work. A 'sorcerer' slowly transforms into a dragon over 20 levels, or becomes like an angel or demon, that kind of thing.
Just produce a list of generic mutations and powers to choose from give each bloodline a few specific powers and have fun letting the player customize the being they transform into.
That's the general idea of the Endowment abilities. For future reference I should call the Abilities that are set in stone for the bloodline it's 'Manifestation' the touch attack 'Arcane Touch' and the talent-like options 'Endowments'.
The logic for the Arcane Touch was some kind of base ability that can be diversified much like a warlock's arcane blast or an alchemist's bombs. I like Kolokotroni's advice of keying off of arcane touches by day rather than the blood pool. Flavor-wise the Arcane Touch is being mutated in a sense by the Exemplar's nature. This does make it seem to be going into 'touch mage' territory but I'm not all the way beat up about that.
The logic behind Manifestation was to physically mutate the Exemplar to look more like her bloodline theme and get physical features from them while the Endowments were to be a series of generic monster abilities and feats.
One Manifestation I'm trying to figure out for example is an Aberrant bloodline one where they gain a reach-like ability, make their Arcane 'sticky' so that the damage persists for a few rounds, get another set of arms, get a chance to negate crits/sneak attack, Some DR, and can make their arcane touch acid damage. Now if they take some endowments like multiarm fighting, and claws and things like that I imagine this wierd cross between Goro from Mortal Kombat and Stretch Armstrong that webslings using his stretchy arms and attacks people with a storm of acid coated limbs.
Endowments are supposed to be on the same level as feats in terms of power so I guess one question to as is how powerful should Manifestations be considering that there are about 6.
I'm doing something similar with leveled mutations. Rather than another class, which means the bloodline vanishes if they elect to be a fighter, cleric, rogue, or something, a leveled mutation would have an effect whatever class they choose. They just miss out on bonus spells and class skills.
I'm doing something similar with leveled mutations. Rather than another class, which means the bloodline vanishes if they elect to be a fighter, cleric, rogue, or something, a leveled mutation would have an effect whatever class they choose. They just miss out on bonus spells and class skills.
May I see? Although I've been working on this quite a bit I have limited computer time and would love to avoid doing more work if someone is doing something that adequately represents what I'm trying to represent.
You might be better off using the bloodrager rather than the sorcerer as your starting point. The bloodrager has a sorcerer-like bloodline but a very limited spell progression (much like that of a paladin or a ranger). Doing that would simplify your design to deciding what you want to replace the bloodrager's spells with.
How would trading in bloodrager bloodline abilities and all bloodrager spellcasting for the corresponding full sorcerer bloodline work? For most bloodlines, everything would work except for the bloodline arcana and the bonus spells.