
Tarantula |

Does a character with cat's grace cast have a 50% chance to not have +4 dex vs the incorporeal creatures attack?
The spell does not affect the incorporeal creature. It affects the target of the spell.
Lets go to a different mechanic.
"Spell Resistance
Spell resistance is a special defensive ability. If your spell is being resisted by a creature with spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature's spell resistance for the spell to affect that creature."
If a creature has spell resistance, and the spell is subject to the spell resistance, you must beat the creatures spell resistance or it is not affected.
Blur can be affected by spell resistance. It is Yes (Harmless) because blur affects only the target of the spell.
If the creature is not the target of the spell (or in the area that the spell targets) then it is not affected by the spell, and incorporeal or spell resistance does not apply.

Numarak |
Ok, blaphers I think you nearly got me convinced. There's still the point, of the third effect, caused by the same barrier, the one that prevents evil summoned creatures to attack you if you are warded with PfE that itches me. But let's say I buy your explanation. PfE bonus that affect the target happens but bonus that affect the incorporeal has 50% misschance. Actually for me Prayer spell constitutes what you are defending but not PfE. But let's say I buy your explanation as I said.
Now, let me question you something. I would like you to tell me if an incorporeal creature triggers the Alarm spell?
Anyhow I have to thank the patience of many, who put an effort so I could see this rule clear, since you, blaphers, were not the first to point that.

blahpers |

Ok, blaphers I think you nearly got me convinced. There's still the point, of the third effect, caused by the same barrier, the one that prevents evil summoned creatures to attack you if you are warded with PfE that itches me.
Not at all. The spell doesn't do anything to the creature; it simply protects the target from the creature's attacks. If you like, you can flip a coin to decide whether the creature "recoils", but the protected creature takes no damage either way.
But let's say I buy your explanation. PfE bonus that affect the target happens but bonus that affect the incorporeal has 50% misschance.
It isn't a matter of whether the bonus affects the incorporeal creature. It's a matter of whether the spell affects the incorporeal creature. Creatures get bonuses and penalties for lots of things that don't actually affect them--usually when those creatures try to affect something else. There's the distinction. If protection from evil actually flung the offending attacker back 30 feet, that would be subject to the 50% check. If it hacked into the mind of the attacker to remove the protected creature from the attacker's vision, granting a miss chance to the attacker's attack, that would be subject to the 50% check. But if it merely affects the subject such that attackers would get a penalty (such as by blurring, shielding, teleporting, whatever), that penalty is not subject to the 50% miss check.
Now, let me question you something. I would like you to tell me if an incorporeal creature triggers the Alarm spell?
Yes. The alarm does not affect the creature; the creature affects the alarm (by triggering it).
Anyhow I have to thank the patience of many, who put an effort so I could see this rule clear, since you, blaphers, were not the first to point that.
It's an admittedly confusing rule set, and a lot of where I land on the subject comes from following alternative stances to their logical conclusions.
Cheers!

Tarantula |

Yes. The alarm does not affect the creature; the creature affects the alarm (by triggering it).
I have to disagree with you here.
Alarm states: "Ethereal or astral creatures do not trigger the alarm."
Incorporeal is neither of these. If the incorporeal creature is Tiny sized or larger, and enters the area, there is a 50% chance of the alarm going off. The alarm is targeted on an area and affects creatures entering or touching the area which is alarmed. Therefore the incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to enter the area and be unaffected (no alarm).

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@Diego
1)
Again, is you saying that Ghosts don't have items, I've found differenty."When a ghost is created, it retains incorporeal “copies” of any items that it particularly valued in life (provided the originals are not in another creature's possession). The equipment works normally for the ghost but passes harmlessly through material objects or creatures."
Actually, looks perfect for my example. The beautiful portrait of his lover whom killed him. So poetic. Maybe, you can, for story sake reasons, decide that you have to destroy not the copy but the real one, but that would be a story decision as a GM; another GM can decide that after 2.000years the real item has decoyed and the only copy that exists is the one in possession of the ghost.
Instead it is you again reading something different from what was written and then repling to your version to shore your position.
1) A ghost (or any incorporeal creature) can't pick up items unless the item has the ghost touch ability. And that mean that it is magic, so not a valid target for shatter.2) Even if the ghost was capable to pick up an item, that don't make the item incorporeal. The ghost hasn't a power that allow it to make items incorporeal.
3) If your portrait is part of the ghost from the start, it is part of a creature, and so not a valid target for shatter.
In that situation it is not a real item, is part of the apparent equipment of the ghost. A ghost appearance can be that of a full plate armored knight or a frail damsel, but that don't change in any way how they attack, their AC and any other characteristic, it is only a cosmetic change.
Noticeably different from "ghost can't have items".
to repeat it again:1) Ghost can't pick up items that lack the ghost touch ability.
- Your quote don't confute it.
2) Ghost can't make items incorporeal
- Your quote don't confute it.
3) Ghost can have an apparent equipment, but it has no game effect.
- The piece you cite only reinforce that (with a small difference). It is a incorporeal copy of the equipment the ghost had, but "The equipment works normally for the ghost but passes harmlessly through material objects or creatures." Let's look "work normally": a copy of a weapon pass harmlessly through a creature or object, so it has no game effect at all, a piece of armor don't protect the ghost at all (from the ghost creation rules: "It loses the base creature's natural armor bonus, as well as all armor and shield bonuses not from force effects or ghost touch items."). What is left? Potions and scrolls? it is possible that they will work for the ghost, but get a copy of a item it should be an "item that it particularly valued in life." I have a hard time seeing the ghost valuing so much a potion or scroll and using it as soon as it encounter some PC.
Miscellaneous magic items? Yes, probably the copy of the cloak of elvenkind work for the ghost.
Other items? Maybe, depend on their nature. GM call for each one.
The painting: it is a copy of a real painting, part of the ghost, not a real item. It can be seen, but it can't be interacted without interacting with the ghost. And it can't be targeted separately from the ghost.
It is a clue to the existence of the real painting, not something that can be destroyed. Note that it disappear from the ghost possessions if someone get hold of the real painting.
To repeat again, it is a copy that is part of the ghost, not a separate object.
2)
On the other hand, you haven't explained me yet why the barrier of Repulsion and the barrier of PfE work differently; the reason you presented was that the barrier of the PfE only produced one of the effects of the spell, then I proceeded to show a text in the rules that turns that statment false and which I reproduce here -again."It creates a magical barrier around the subject at a distance of 1 foot. The barrier moves with the subject and has three major effects."
Nefreet even dismissed the problem accepting your version that both spells work differently (Repulsion, PfE).
First, the subject gains a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saves.
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw ...(etc.)
The subject, i.e. the target of the spell. who is the attacker isn't relevant. The spell affect the target of the spell giving the specified benefits. The ghost ability don't cancel the spell, so the target get the benefits and then the ghost attacks are influenced by the benefits that the target is getting.
Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by evil summoned creatures.
Only the third effect affect the attacker and not the target of the spell.
3)
On the Mind Blank I would like to point that, in fact, wasn't me asking about it, was Rikkan. Explain to him why Mind Blank works -because is a powerful spell of level 8- and not hocuspucus incorporeality, I did not bring it to the table, although shows my main point: things are not clear, and we want clear rules.
And my reply cited Rikkan post, so where are you trying to go with this comment?
4)
What I told to KalEl was that, actually, au contraire of what he was stating -that there is no such place in the rules that defines Incorporeality as "not having a physical body", and that is the reason why assuming that when we talk about a corporeal spell or effect we have to regress to its source- I pointed out that 'yes', there's actually some -more than one!- places that refers to incoporeality as "not having a physical body". Yea, it refers to creatures, but we play RPG, we can all extrapolate -basically, we have to because there is no place where
incorporeal spells and effect are defined, not even described.
And? Again your reply is a not sequitor to my reply.
Numarak wrote:
....
Instead of that, someone says: no, incorporeal effect or spell has nothing to do with having a physical body, it has something to do with the source of them. Why?Because originally what is now "incorporeality" was "being ethereal", so you were half in this plane and half in the ethereal plane and that mentality has sticked even when the incorporeal status was applied to other things.
A creature in the ethereal plane attacking another creature on the ethereal plane didn't suffered from the 50% failure rate.
And I amazed by this in your comment above:
Numarak: "What I told to KalEl was that, actually, au contraire of what he was stating -that there is no such place in the rules that defines Incorporeality as "not having a physical body","I had the distinct impression that your post was saying exactly the opposite.
Numarak: "Extract from the rules. First entrance of Incorporeal:
"An incorporeal creature has no physical body."
Actually, the rest of the entrance explains effects derived from this fact, the fact of not having a physical body in terms of game rules, but those are descriptions of the incorporeality. Yea, incorporeal creatures are immune to precision damage, but not all creatures immune to precision damage are incorporeal. Again, as a matter of fact, all incoporeal creatures does not have a physical body, and all creatures that does not have a physical body, you won't believe this, are, yea, you guess it, incorporeal."
I can't reconcile that two statements.
5)
I'm still waiting for an answer to the question about a corporeal caster that tries to Dispel Magic a Resist Energy casted by an incoporeal creature.
Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell.
If the caster target Resist energy he is not targeting the creature, he is targeting the spell. If he is targeting the spell the abilities of the creature don't matter.

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I would totally agree with you if the sentence had read "Corporael spells that do not cause damage..."
But it actually reads "Corporeal spells AND EFFECTS that do not cause damage..."
I have to conclude that for you, the effects described by PfE as "effects", is not me saying that, is the spell, are not effects? Or they are not corporeal but the spell is? When they stop being corporeal if the spell was and the caste too?
Dudes, effects are also included in the protection derived from incorporeality. Effects caused by any spell have to be included if you included the spell. Or is it only me reading the word effects in the sentence. The target of the spell is never mentioned. But the effects are. Thus I do not understand why you make a difference in regard of the target, when the rule never mentions the target as an exception, like, let's say: the effects produced by spells where the target is not the incorporeal creature, do not have this 50% misschance. No mention. We have to assume then all effects are affected.
Because a creature defensive ability interact with things that directly affect that creature. Not with things that target other creatures. That is the point you fail to comprehend.
The Blur affects you. Some of the effects of the Blur affect the incorporeal creature. I fail to see why you dismiss this fact. I'm not refering to the spell. Agreed. The incorporeal is not the target of it. I'm refering to the fact that the incorporeal creature, by the words of the rule, is also protected by the corporeal effects.
If we assumed that: caster is corporeal > spell is corporeal. Are we assuming that the effects of the corporeal spell are not corporeal? Are we assuming that? Or are we rejecting the words "and effects" of the rule just ignoring they are written?
For me would be easier to accept all PfE, Repulsion and Blur has 50% chance of failing on a incorporeal creature, by assuming the source of the entity is what determines the corporeality/incorporeality of the entity.
Well, light affect the incorporeal creature, it allow him to see. so 50% of the time the incorporeal creature is blind.

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I almost always see channel positive energy played as having full effect on incorporeal undead.
It has full effect on incorporeal creatures. It was FAQued and then a errata was issued.
Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.

blahpers |

"blahpers wrote:Yes. The alarm does not affect the creature; the creature affects the alarm (by triggering it).I have to disagree with you here.
Alarm states: "Ethereal or astral creatures do not trigger the alarm."
Incorporeal is neither of these. If the incorporeal creature is Tiny sized or larger, and enters the area, there is a 50% chance of the alarm going off. The alarm is targeted on an area and affects creatures entering or touching the area which is alarmed. Therefore the incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to enter the area and be unaffected (no alarm).
I disagree. Alarm does not affect creatures entering its area at all--it waits for a creature to enter its area before doing something.

Tarantula |
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"Alarm
Area 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a point in space"
"Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres."
Alarm is an emanation area spell. Emanation spells function like burst and they last for the duration of the spell. Burst affects creatures in the area. Therefore, alarm spells affect incorporeal creatures in their area, and have a 50% chance of going off when the incorporeal creature enters the area.

KalEl el Vigilante |

"
I'm with Nefreet and Drejk. The effect can be physical or mind-affecting, and that doesn't have nothing to do with it being corporeal or incorporeal. The source of the effect would be what defines corporeality.
"Stating that being physical has nothing to do with being corporeal or incorporeal is the same, in this argumentation, as saying that "having a physical body".
We all understand "be physical" as having a "physical body", don't we?
I don't: to me, a fireball is a physical spell (or one with physical effects) and a charm person a mind-affecting, non-physical effect. But both may be incorporeal if cast by an incorporeal caster and both may be corporeal if cast by a corporeal caster.
Incorporeal beings don't have a body. That doesn't automatically mean that anything that doesn't target a body or has an effect over a body (but over a mind, for example) is incorporeal. Hence, my defense it depends on the source, not the spell itself.

GinoA |

So, having read the whole thread (I think I even commented once, up there someplace), I'd like to suggest a definition for "affects". For our friendly neighborhood ghost, the 50% rule would apply anytime one of these happens (except for explicit exceptions, like force* and channel).
An object/creature (the subject) is affected when one of the following happens:
- The subject takes damage or is drained. In other words, one of the numbers on his stat block goes down.
- The subject is required to make a saving throw.
- The subject's Spell Resistance is checked against.
- The subject acquires a condition.
- The subject is compelled to do something/not do something, including being moved.
- An attack is rolled against the subject.
- The subject is outright prevented from attempting something he might otherwise do. Not when a modifier makes his attempt fail, but his attempt is preempted.
Feel free to suggest items I've missed.
*Force only exists if called-out, not just because it makes sense.

blahpers |

"Alarm
Area 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a point in space""Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres."
Alarm is an emanation area spell. Emanation spells function like burst and they last for the duration of the spell. Burst affects creatures in the area. Therefore, alarm spells affect incorporeal creatures in their area, and have a 50% chance of going off when the incorporeal creature enters the area.
Being a burst or emanation is not sufficient to say that a spell affects creatures; the spell must actually actually affect creatures. The bolded text assumes that the spell in question is a spell that affects creatures because the majority of such spells are for harming or healing creatures. I maintain that alarm affects the area itself, not the creature entering the area.

Tarantula |

I might have been premature in my calling on Alarm. I can see the effect is that "an alarm sounds", not doing something to the creature triggering it. I'll agree that alarm is unaffected by incorporeal.
Though... you'd think that if Diminutive creatures don't set it off, and incorporeal are body-less, that they wouldn't set it off either.

blahpers |

I might have been premature in my calling on Alarm. I can see the effect is that "an alarm sounds", not doing something to the creature triggering it. I'll agree that alarm is unaffected by incorporeal.
Though... you'd think that if Diminutive creatures don't set it off, and incorporeal are body-less, that they wouldn't set it off either.
True, that's a bit weird. I'll have to think about how I run it.

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"blahpers wrote:Yes. The alarm does not affect the creature; the creature affects the alarm (by triggering it).I have to disagree with you here.
Alarm states: "Ethereal or astral creatures do not trigger the alarm."
Incorporeal is neither of these. If the incorporeal creature is Tiny sized or larger, and enters the area, there is a 50% chance of the alarm going off. The alarm is targeted on an area and affects creatures entering or touching the area which is alarmed. Therefore the incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to enter the area and be unaffected (no alarm).
About that, someone remember a old thread about how incorporeality changed between the 3.X and Pathfinder? From what I recall 3.x was still anchored to the idea that etherealness and incorporeality were the same thing while Pathfinder has disjointed them. The thread I remember had some dev input.
- * -
@Numarak
I apologize as some of my post were too harsh. I have learned posting on a way more abrasive forum and that sometime show.

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I might have been premature in my calling on Alarm. I can see the effect is that "an alarm sounds", not doing something to the creature triggering it. I'll agree that alarm is unaffected by incorporeal.
Though... you'd think that if Diminutive creatures don't set it off, and incorporeal are body-less, that they wouldn't set it off either.
I think that incorporeal but not ethereal creatures have a 50% chance of be detected, checked when they enter the alarm area. After entering they can move freely in the area but the chance is re-checked if they leave the area and reenter.
Note that the alarm spell text is unchanged from the older editions, when the normal (and maybe only) way to become incorporeal was to become ethereal, so the RAI can be that incorporeal creatures don't trigger the alarm.

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I give another example; imagine a ghost which holds a portrait. The portrait, as the ghost, both are incorporeal. Your character have learned that destroying the portrait is the way for banishing the ghost. Now, the corporeal caster of your party casts a Shatter to destroy the incorporeal portrait, would you apply the 50%. Consistency says you should. But then, why incorporeal spells and effects casted by an incoporeal caster do not benefit from the same rule? Where do you draw the line?
It's not a good example. as the thing that holds the ghost to the world, it should be corporeal.