The multitude of Save or Die stuff at higher levels makes things very bothersome. When so many creatures are packing them, eventually one of them will stick.
I kinda have an unspoken contract with my players. I generally won't throw save or dies at them and they won't at me.
Unless its a module =P
Then the gloves are off and they know it.
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I find that high level play works just fine if you actually follow all the rules and use monsters of appropriate CR.
Many GMs fall into the "challenge cleric will save" trap with AC to "challenge the fighter". Everything tends to go straight to hell as soon as GMs edit stat blocks to "challenge the party" or play balors as melee brutes who don't use their SLAs.
Likewise keeping up with the complexity requires a skilled GM, who can keep track of the rules, AND be able to look at a stat block and quickly make effective tactics for monsters.
I always thought the math breaking down thing was when bonuses get so high that dice rolls stop mattering. For example, if you can do hundreds of damage without rolling dice then the system tends to collapse as the main mechanic stops being relevant: chance.
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See I always hate low levels because everything depends on how you roll the dice and less on the choices you make.
I like the middle levels. (8-12/13ish) You've got a good array of abilities you've worked for if you leveled up organically and your bonuses are high but not so high they trivialize play. You could rightly rule a kingdom or have a similarly high station but you're not messing with the cosmos.
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...You cannot teleport if you don't have astral plane. The vast majority of settings not based on D&D have no astral plane...LOTR with 20th level characters in Pathfinder would just be a simple teleportation spell..."One does not just simply teleport into Mordor..."
"One does not simply wind-walk into Mordor..."
You cannot teleport if you don't have astral plane.Too bad the text for teleport doesn't mention that. Towards the end of chapter 13 in the CRB, in ~2 pages spent describing the planes, we see
Powerful spellcasters utilize the Astral Plane for a tiny fractoin of a second when they teleport,
But that isn't a rule. Which makes sense; how teleport works is a setting-specific detail. As you mentioned, not all settings have an astral plane. How teleport works of course depends on the setting.
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I like the middle levels. (8-12/13ish) You've got a good array of abilities you've worked for if you leveled up organically and your bonuses are high but not so high they trivialize play. You could rightly rule a kingdom or have a similarly high station but you're not messing with the cosmos.
I'd place my ideal levels a little lower, but can't say some of the high level stuff can't be fun anyway.
You cannot teleport if you don't have astral plane.Too bad the text for teleport doesn't mention that. Towards the end of chapter 13 in the CRB, in ~2 pages spent describing the planes, we seePowerful spellcasters utilize the Astral Plane for a tiny fractoin of a second when they teleport,But that isn't a rule. Which makes sense; how teleport works is a setting-specific detail. As you mentioned, not all settings have an astral plane. How teleport works of course depends on the setting.
Also misses the point about teleport making the adventure short if you split hairs. I think the point was about the plot, not whether its feasible.
Planar binding is cool but the payments and potential risk of an escaped outsider are nontrivial at those levels.
I like the middle levels. (8-12/13ish) You've got a good array of abilities you've worked for if you leveled up organically and your bonuses are high but not so high they trivialize play. You could rightly rule a kingdom or have a similarly high station but you're not messing with the cosmos.I'd place my ideal levels a little lower, but can't say some of the high level stuff can't be fun anyway.
*yawn* planar binding. That's another one of those things that if you bother reading the rules, doesn't work out very well.
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The game can break down, but that does not mean it has too. It really depends on how the group plays and the skill of the GM.If the break down is a function of the basic math of the game, your assertion seems counter intuitive to me. Please explain.
There are ways to cheat the CR system so the GM can use a monster and make it much higher than its CR. Using the young and advanced template is one example. Changing a stock(directly from the book) monster's feats and tactics and terrain it appears in also makes a fight much more difficult. Some monster also synergize well together so that can an encounter tougher. Another idea is to ignore XP which means the CR system puts less burden on the GM to use monsters of CR Y. The GM can also just accept the fact that players now need CR+2 encounters versus CR=APL encounters to get the same results. Using less combats can still allow him to control the pace of the leveling. The list goes on.
The breakdown is not just math related. Another issue with higher level characters is that they have so many options that it is hard to challenge them with making sure they can't just use spell/magic time X to bypass it. As an example if they are in a murder mystery adventure you have to find a way to block divination spells. Teleport spells help bypass time restrictions. The options are much more difficult to deal with than the math in my opinion..YMMV.
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The game can break down, but that does not mean it has too. It really depends on how the group plays and the skill of the GM.If the GM had to fix it, it means there was an inherent problem in the first place though. Never been a big fan of the philosophy that a GM should fix it myself. Lays blame on individuals instead of citing flaws.
Anyways, I've always thought the scaling was a bit off with saves vs. DC, AC/CMD vs. attack, and the options casters have vs. the options martials have. High level play can devolve into rocket tag easily too.
I was not so much talking about fixing anything. Different GM's just use different tactics, and I am not talking about making up or breaking rules.
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*yawn* planar binding. That's another one of those things that if you bother reading the rules, doesn't work out very well.I like the middle levels. (8-12/13ish) You've got a good array of abilities you've worked for if you leveled up organically and your bonuses are high but not so high they trivialize play. You could rightly rule a kingdom or have a similarly high station but you're not messing with the cosmos.I'd place my ideal levels a little lower, but can't say some of the high level stuff can't be fun anyway.
Couple things here:
1) When people talk about using Pathfinder abilities (such as teleport) to solve a problem the implicit suggestion is "assuming this works as it would in a Pathfinder setting". Since teleport would work in a Pathfinder setting it would in fact solve the problem.
2) Having read the rules of Planar Binding I can assure its quite safe assuming you make you sure to off the outsider before the service expires. The spell states: "The creature might later seek revenge." To pretend that suddenly other creatures will come looking for you would actually go outside the rules. So prove to me that summoning then offing the outsider isn't safe RAW.
3) At this level casters make planes of existence and create/summon/control armies (proportional to time spent) and very little beats a caster + army save another caster + army.
The outsider can escape. Also, magic circle against x spells are pretty tough deterrents against summoned creatures. There's also the control summoned creature spell.
The outsider can escape. Also, magic circle against x spells are pretty tough deterrents against summoned creatures. There's also the control summoned creature spell.
Well I was just joking that I could totally mess with the cosmos, not that you should. Anything beyond the joke is just details that murder the humor.
2) Having read the rules of Planar Binding I can assure its quite safe assuming you make you sure to off the outsider before the service expires. The spell states: "The creature might later seek revenge." To pretend that suddenly other creatures will come looking for you would actually go outside the rules. So prove to me that summoning then offing the outsider isn't safe RAW.
1. Most outsiders don't stay dead when killed on the material plane (namely devils and demons).
2. Outsider tend to not exist in isolation. Meaning someone will notice outsider disappearing. If PCs can solve murders at low levels, how much more so an outsider with divination SLAs/asking other outsider with SLAs where the other outsider went.
3. Not to mention most of the risk comes from the outsider twisting the words of request.
"Demon, protect me from monster!" Demon cast minor buff spell on you and then just stands there. "No Demon, prevent me from getting hit by this monster" Demon kills wizard before monster can get in another hit. "Demon, kill that monster" Demon proceeds to use commoners as bludgeoning weapon. "Demon use scorching ray SLA to kill that monster!" Demon uses scorching ray to burn down trees to one day kill monster with global warming. "Demon use scorching ray SLA on that monster" Demon intentionally misses shots. "Demon your contract is almost up. Lay down and let the fighter chop off your head" Demon finds that request unreasonable.
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2) Having read the rules of Planar Binding I can assure its quite safe assuming you make you sure to off the outsider before the service expires. The spell states: "The creature might later seek revenge." To pretend that suddenly other creatures will come looking for you would actually go outside the rules. So prove to me that summoning then offing the outsider isn't safe RAW.
You can't be serious. But assuming you are, okay.
Please refer to the bestiary in the monster section relevant to what you're summoning. Refer to the attribute line and notice that for most outsider sections neither Int, Wis nor Cha are non-abilities. Also in most cases they are not of animal level intelligence.
Therefore these creatures are capable of self-directed action, anticipating future events and have a concept of self (and thus self-preservation is a possibility). As NPCs these actions are determined by the GM (refer to gamemastering, NPCs or 'how the game is played' in CRB).
Thus by RAW, the GM is entitled to determine the actions of the former summoned creatures extraplanar comrades to act in order to protect their own self-interest.
2) Having read the rules of Planar Binding I can assure its quite safe assuming you make you sure to off the outsider before the service expires. The spell states: "The creature might later seek revenge." To pretend that suddenly other creatures will come looking for you would actually go outside the rules. So prove to me that summoning then offing the outsider isn't safe RAW.1. Most outsiders don't stay dead when killed on the material plane (namely devils and demons).
2. Outsider tend to not exist in isolation. Meaning someone will notice outsider disappearing. If PCs can solve murders at low levels, how much more so an outsider with divination SLAs/asking other outsider with SLAs where the other outsider went.
3. Not to mention most of the risk comes from the outsider twisting the words of request.
"Demon, protect me from monster!" Demon cast minor buff spell on you and then just stands there. "No Demon, prevent me from getting hit by this monster" Demon kills wizard before monster can get in another hit. "Demon, kill that monster" Demon proceeds to use commoners as bludgeoning weapon. "Demon use scorching ray SLA to kill that monster!" Demon uses scorching ray to burn down trees to one day kill monster with global warming. "Demon use scorching ray SLA on that monster" Demon intentionally misses shots. "Demon your contract is almost up. Lay down and let the fighter chop off your head" Demon finds that request unreasonable.
Keep in mind that that's a very adversarial gamestyle and it doesn't benefit anyone.
Keep in mind that that's a very adversarial gamestyle and it doesn't benefit anyone.
Which part? The PC murdering contractors or the GM roleplaying the outsiders?
Believe it or not planar binding is most effective when you convince the outsider that they should help you and THEN make the cha check.
2) Having read the rules of Planar Binding I can assure its quite safe assuming you make you sure to off the outsider before the service expires. The spell states: "The creature might later seek revenge." To pretend that suddenly other creatures will come looking for you would actually go outside the rules. So prove to me that summoning then offing the outsider isn't safe RAW.You can't be serious. But assuming you are, okay.
Please refer to the bestiary in the monster section relevant to what you're summoning. Refer to the attribute line and notice that for most outsider sections neither Int, Wis nor Cha are non-abilities. Also in most cases they are not of animal level intelligence.
Therefore these creatures are capable of self-directed action, anticipating future events and have a concept of self (and thus self-preservation is a possibility). As NPCs these actions are determined by the GM (refer to gamemastering, NPCs or 'how the game is played' in CRB).
Thus by RAW, the GM is entitled to determine the actions of the former summoned creatures extraplanar comrades to act in order to protect their own self-interest.
Ok... what part of that prevents me from killing them off while they are under my control? Other outsiders trying to "solve" the murders as MArthkus suggests is not RAW. The RAW on Planar Binding is as I quoted that "The creature may seek revenge." Please show me RAW where other creatures may seek revenge for it.
Second. Outsiders that are *CALLED* (as in you know Planar Binding) are perma-killed if they are killed while called on the material plane.
If your going to try and argue rules please bring some to the argument.
@Buri - If the outsider can escape, you have made a mistake.
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Ok... what part of that prevents me from killing them off while they are under my control? Other outsiders trying to "solve" the murders as MArthkus suggests is not RAW. The RAW on Planar Binding is as I quoted that "The creature may seek revenge." Please show me RAW where other creatures may seek revenge for it.
Second. Outsiders that are *CALLED* (as in you know Planar Binding) are perma-killed if they are killed while called on the material plane.
If your going to try and argue rules please bring some to the argument.
@Buri - If the outsider can escape, you have made a mistake.
The GM roleplaying NPCs isn't RAW?
You and I must be playing different games. This thread is about pathfinder right?
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My experience is at higher levels, increasing the stakes is really the only way to make it manageable. Encounters can either be too hard or too easy for your party. Some monsters just happen to be a perfect counter for a party.
Once I made an encounter with 2 shining children (shining child) , they were supposed to be a barely challenging encounter. My party literally fled after they got blinded because they couldn't pass the fort save and one party member died under the at will scorching rays (10d6) of the shining children.
And Planar Binding is very specific about the creature (and only the creature) seeking revenge.
Or do you have a rule to the contrary?
Furthermore, if you are binding outsiders and killing them off, why would you care that some more bags of XP and treasure might get upset? It'll help you level up faster once you kill them. It's like having the adventure come to you.
You cannot teleport if you don't have astral plane.Too bad the text for teleport doesn't mention that. Towards the end of chapter 13 in the CRB, in ~2 pages spent describing the planes, we seePowerful spellcasters utilize the Astral Plane for a tiny fractoin of a second when they teleport,But that isn't a rule. Which makes sense; how teleport works is a setting-specific detail. As you mentioned, not all settings have an astral plane. How teleport works of course depends on the setting.You're looking in the wrong place. Look in the magic chapter under the teleportation subschool of conjuration on page 210. It's the last sentence of the section.
Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation.Unless you want to argue that the absence of an astral plane in a setting's cosmology does not block astral travel it's a rule.
For some odd reason people assume that rules not immediately in the spell description don't apply and are house rules.
I assume that if you propose something that contradicts a rule that *IS* written down (isn't it odd I'm the only that has actually cited a rule from the spell?), that yes said rule is a house rule (at the very least it is not RAW).
And Planar Binding is very specific about the creature (and only the creature) seeking revenge.
Or do you have a rule to the contrary?
Furthermore, if you are binding outsiders and killing them off, why would you care that some more bags of XP and treasure might get upset? It'll help you level up faster once you kill them. It's like having the adventure come to you.
For some odd reason people assume that rules not immediately in the spell description don't apply and are house rules.
I assume that if you propose something that contradicts a rule that *IS* written down, that yes said rule is a house rule (at the very least it is not RAW).
I assume that you don't actually know the rules with statements like these.
Ya, I only know them enough to actually cite them to support my argument. That is probably is a poor strategy, since evidently I should just be posting comments with no backing about how others don't know the rules and generally not contributing the discussion.
Ya, I only know them enough to actually cite them to support my argument. That is probably is a poor strategy, since evidently I should just be posting comments with no backing about how others don't know the rules and generally not contributing the discussion.
You are also are saying that the GM roleplaying NPCs is not RAW.
The GM can freely roleplay the NPC, provided that it is the only creature seeking revenge. (It will be dead before it can do that of course.)
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The GM can freely roleplay the NPC, provided that it is the only creature seeking revenge. (It will be dead before it can do that of course.)
Ok, so I can murder a commoner with a greatsword and no one can seek revenge for it because the greatsword description doesn't say they can?
The spell description explicitly calls out only the creature seeking revenge. So if you summoned a commoner with it, yes no one could do anything (at least not RAW).
Now if you killed something outside of Planar Binding sure whatever makes sense goes.
You're looking in the wrong place. Look in the magic chapter under the teleportation subschool of conjuration on page 210. It's the last sentence of the section.
In that case it's a setting-specific detail intruding into setting-agnostic rules. *shrug*
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It should be noted that while Outsiders can indeed seek revenge. It's frankly pretty rare for them to bother, a year of service (at most) is nothing in the life of an outsider who literally lives forever. Plus usually Demons and Devil prefers to corrupt the person who summoned them, so they get another soul to torture when they die or amusingly interpret orders given.
"Save My friend!" The fiend could literally teleport your friend on an island far away with dangerous creatures or cast a spell like flesh to stone to change your friend into a statue so they wouldn't be in harm way.
Of course the conjurer could simply go all psycho and abuse the outsider non stop every day...but I find it very unlikely.
For some odd reason people assume that rules not immediately in the spell description don't apply and are house rules.You cannot teleport if you don't have astral plane.Too bad the text for teleport doesn't mention that. Towards the end of chapter 13 in the CRB, in ~2 pages spent describing the planes, we seePowerful spellcasters utilize the Astral Plane for a tiny fractoin of a second when they teleport,But that isn't a rule. Which makes sense; how teleport works is a setting-specific detail. As you mentioned, not all settings have an astral plane. How teleport works of course depends on the setting.You're looking in the wrong place. Look in the magic chapter under the teleportation subschool of conjuration on page 210. It's the last sentence of the section.
Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation.Unless you want to argue that the absence of an astral plane in a setting's cosmology does not block astral travel it's a rule.
It is a rule... but creating a setting in which there is no such thing as an astral plane IS a houserule.
Why? Because it means that you are banning teleportation spells. Remove the shadow plane and you just banned shadowstepping and shadow dancers. You can ban ethereal jaunt and summon spells as well.
Heck you can go ahead and ban divine magic too. The reality is that the existence of all of these things is a default assumption, and changing that changes the game. I think it is ridiculous to say, on one hand, that you can remove the astral plane to remove travel spells, and then in the same breath say that this is not a houserule.
Banning core options from right out of the CRB... yeah... houserule. The planes exist unless you choose to change the game.
Now if you killed something outside of Planar Binding sure whatever makes sense goes.
Oh? Do cite the rule that says a GM can roleplay an NPC to seek revenge on you for killing a commoner with a greatsword.
It should be noted that while Outsiders can indeed seek revenge. It's frankly pretty rare for them to bother, a year of service (at most) is nothing in the life of an outsider who literally lives forever. Plus usually Demons and Devil prefers to corrupt the person who summoned them, so they get another soul to torture when they die or amusingly interpret orders given.
"Save My friend!" The fiend could literally teleport your friend on an island far away with dangerous creatures or cast a spell like flesh to stone to change your friend into a statue so they wouldn't be in harm way.
Of course the conjurer could simply go all psycho and abuse the outsider non stop every day...but I find it very unlikely.
This is why it's best to dispose of them after they have to borrow a villainous phrase "outlived their usefulness". (If I had a dime for every time my Malconovker said this...)
This is why it's best to dispose of them after they have to borrow a villainous phrase "outlived their usefulness". (If I had a dime for every time my Malconovker said this...)
Also a good way to get yourself killed or worse.
It is a rule... but creating a setting in which there is no such thing as an astral plane IS a houserule.
Sure, it's technically a houserule. I understand that. The thing is that it's another case where setting-specific details have broken into the core books and become rules. Now, if you modify the planar structure of your setting, you have to houserule a sentence buried in the middle of the CRB or teleport does not work RAW. It's like animate dead having the [evil] descriptor. It's dependent upon the setting (necromancy being inherently evil is a setting detail), but it intrudes into the core rules.
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This is why it's best to dispose of them after they have to borrow a villainous phrase "outlived their usefulness". (If I had a dime for every time my Malconovker said this...)Also a good way to get yourself killed or worse.
*Citation needed.
Also, I'm still here so...
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This is why it's best to dispose of them after they have to borrow a villainous phrase "outlived their usefulness". (If I had a dime for every time my Malconovker said this...)Also a good way to get yourself killed or worse.*Citation needed.
Also, I'm still here so...
G-G-G-G-Ghost!
More seriously, might be a good time to stop responding.
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Honestly, despite the reverence Gygax receives, all the stuff he implemented has only managed to conviced me that he was a mechanical gamer first, and a petty one at that. I dont think it's a desirable "legacy feature".
I'm not sure how he's getting the blame for the latest iteration of a system that Monte Cook, Jonathan Tweet, and skip Williams created.
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This is why it's best to dispose of them after they have to borrow a villainous phrase "outlived their usefulness". (If I had a dime for every time my Malconovker said this...)Also a good way to get yourself killed or worse.*Citation needed.
Also, I'm still here so...
You still need to cite why killing commoners with a greatsword may cause people to take revenge on you.
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Yeah, I have to jump in here as well ... to williamoak - we pretty much owe everything to Gygax. He was an incredibly creative and clever guy who created the game we all know and love. Heck, he created the very concept of the RPG. From everything I've read and heard, he was an amazing DM who ran amazing games. Don't disparage Gygax, just because modern high level play has issues.
As usual, Dave Arneson's contributions are ignored...
Honestly, despite the reverence Gygax receives, all the stuff he implemented has only managed to conviced me that he was a mechanical gamer first, and a petty one at that. I dont think it's a desirable "legacy feature".I'm not sure how he's getting the blame for the latest iteration of a system that Monte Cook, Jonathan Tweet, and skip Williams created.
Shhhhh with your relevant "facts"
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*Citation needed.
You need a rule to have allies of the NPCs you've murdered come after you for revenge?
That's a very strange campaign to me.
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LOTR with 20th level characters in Pathfinder would just be a simple teleportation spell..."One does not just simply teleport into Mordor..."Sigh. Nobody who claims that PF high level outstrips the gods of other settings actually reads the rules.
You cannot teleport if you don't have astral plane. The vast majority of settings not based on D&D have no astral plane.
You cannot summon if you don't have outside planes to summon from. The vast majority of settings not based on D&D or the Lovecraft mythos do not have outside planes.
You show a rather remarkable lack of imagination, for someone who supposedly plays a game fueled by imagination. I've played in games where the setting doesn't have the D&D cosmology, or anything that resembles it. You know why a teleport spell works in such a setting?
BECAUSE ITS F&%#ING MAGIC!!!
Hell, I remember playing an adventure where the entire genesis was that we, the party, were the "monsters" that got summoned when some wizard cast a variant of summon monster. Of course, this was before 3rd edition and it's obsessive need to catalog, classify, and categorize virtually everything that could be done, how it was accomplished, etc.