But as I've asked before - can any of you 5-star GM's, VO's, or Paizo folks tell me in real numbers how many people this will really make a difference for? I think the pushback is coming from the vast majority of PFS players who just aren't that into this thing as much as you are.Vast majority? Can you please provide data?
IMNSHO, if any regional reward system gets just one person to venture out to a new area and meet new people, it's worth it. They may just be the next Brock, Compton, Courts, Moreland, etc...
That's a little extreme isn't it?
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But as I've asked before - can any of you 5-star GM's, VO's, or Paizo folks tell me in real numbers how many people this will really make a difference for? I think the pushback is coming from the vast majority of PFS players who just aren't that into this thing as much as you are.Vast majority? Can you please provide data?
Supposition only based on a Vic Wertz post indicating that fully 88% of PFS players play two or fewer scenarios per month.
Can you provide the numbers I've asked for? You went to GenCon. How many people played PFS there? More than 600? That would represent about 1% of the player base, for instance.
And I agree - if this idea keeps the campaign vibrant and alive I'm supportive of it in general. If that means we use it to mine the next great talent, or whatever.
I really don't mind waiting extra time for a scenario to come out. If you guys get all excited and that keeps this thing going, great. We need every leg up we can get with 5e on the way. And I'm not going to be a Wizards customer. For that, I would stop playing.
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Supposition only based on a Vic Wertz post indicating that fully 88% of PFS players play two or fewer scenarios per month.
Can you provide the numbers I've asked for? You went to GenCon. How many people played PFS there? More than 600? That would represent about 1% of the player base, for instance.
And I agree - if this idea keeps the campaign vibrant and alive I'm supportive of it in general. If that means we use it to mine the next great talent, or whatever.
I really don't mind waiting extra time for a scenario to come out. If you guys get all excited and that keeps this thing going, great. We need every leg up we can get with 5e on the way. And I'm not going to be a Wizards customer. For that, I would stop playing.
Careful not to make an assumption that the people who post here even remotely represent the average player base. Our demographics are way skewed toward the avid (rabid) gamer.
At Gen Con there were about 1000 people playing Siege of the Diamond City. If you include Goblin Attack, Kids Track and BBB, I'd be willing to bet more than 2000 people, probably closer to 3000 people played at least one session of PFS in some for or another.
Here's a better question, how many people traveled more than 2 hours at least once in the past 12 months to play a game of PFS?
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If that is that case, then I am impressed. I had no idea GenCon was such a large event, or had such a heavy PFS focus.
I only know of one or two people personally, who have ever gone. I've heard several speak about being able to go just once as something akin to a dream. None of them are active on these boards. But again, that is me allowing anecdotal evidence to color my perspective (which is natural)
In any event, I've never driven 2 hours to play an RPG, and I'm not sure I ever will. If people want to, that's their choice. It doesn't hurt me.
If you want Paizo to introduce certain specials in advance based on region, income, BMI, or whatever measure that's fine with me.
Now you say that the boards draw more avid gamers. I guess I fall in this category even though I play only a fraction of the volume others here do.
So what of those who don't follow the boards? Are these less rabid, avid gamers more or less likely to travel for a regional special they're going to get access to next month anyway?
Your proposed initiative doesn't HAVE to reach the masses, and it doesn't HAVE to make numerical sense. Maybe it will achieve both these aims. Maybe we'll uncover the next Gary Gygax, who knows?
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Here's a better question, how many people traveled more than 2 hours at least once in the past 12 months to play a game of PFS?
*raises hand* Twice. Gen Con and once a very much longer drive than it should have been from Denver to Colorado Springs. However, that was the first time I have done either of those things and probably will be the last for a while.
Honestly, first impression of the idea for a boon based on how far a player travels really struck a chord with me. I can see it as available universally where anyone can print it off and bring it on their travels. Milestone rewards for 50 miles travelled, 100, 500, 1000, & 2000. Maybe a Grand Master Traveler for going across an ocean or somethisomething. Special content? Check. Withholding scenarios? Nope. Need a con? Nope. Seems a good thought. Will have to mull it over.
I am also wary of the hard lines for regions. Travelling from Florida to Washington is more of a trek than travelling from Arizona to Mexico or even Italy to France. That's not even talking getting from North America to Europe or from Australia to ... well, anywhere else. (Sorry for the generalization, Aussies, I just hear that a lot from the more vocal few.) People should be rewarded for not just going out of country but out of state or even out of city, especially when that next city over is a 3+ hour drive.
Truth be told, having now gone to Gen Con and the local cons here in Denver, my 5-to-10-year goal is to go to Paizo Con and at least one con or game day in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Utah, and Wyoming. Maaaayyyybe Kansas and Nebraska. But I do it for the experience of playing with new people in a new place. Those who want that experience will do that regardless of rewards. I doubt many more will start traveling who aren't already. If your goal is for one person, grand. I can understand that. But it may not be worth the resources beyond the boon mentioned.
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If someone's location or finances didn't allow her to get to a convention that offered Bonekeep, or Siege of the Diamond City, would you counsel her to quit the campaign?I am going to try to remain call here, but where the hell did I suggest I would counsel anyone under any circumstances to quit PFS, WHERE? This one really pisses me off.That would be here, in your very first post in this thread, where you said "if Regional Specials became a thing I would probably walk" and further that "If not being able to regularly travel to other regions means I can't access special content, then I have little interest in continuing with the organization."
Granted, you were *technically* saying that you would quit and not that you would counsel others to do so, but Chris having made that connection hardly seems like enough of a leap to merit "really piss[ing] [you] off."
If you get that upset when people read your posts, you might be more comfortable leaving your thoughts and then using the "Hide Thread" feature so you don't get "really pissed off" by people asking about the things you apparently forgot you said.
No where in my post did I suggest that I would counsel others to leave the organization. NO WHERE! I said I would leave. Show me the words where I said I would suggest others leave. You quoted a post that proves that I did not say I would counsel others to leave. It is unreasonable to extrapolate that in leaving I would then counsel others to leave. So yes he put words in my mouth.
I have met Chris several times and I have no issue with him personally. That said his post said something inappropriate when he suggested that I, or anyone in the thread, said that they would counsel others to leave.
Before I posted that response, I went back through the thread, I looked for anything I, or anyone else, said that could have suggested such a course of action. I found none.
Jiggy, you are correct I "*technically*" never said that I would counsel others to leave. That is true because I in no way said or implied that I would counsel others to leave.
I will continue to read threads and expect that when I post things that people will read the post not something other than what I posted. I will not hide from issues. I will continue to post where I feel my opinion has merit. Especially when I see people suggesting something that in my opinion goes against fairness and equality.
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Three notes, folks:
1) if there were regional adventures, you'd be in one of those regions. You'd have easy access to an adventure that people three states away wouldn't, and vice versa.
So what, I don't want access to something that other people don't have access to, I want access to the same things that everyone else has access to.
2) So far as I understand the Paizo system, and I might be very ignorant of it, it's not set up to give "every GM in these ZIP codes an Irrisen scenario, and every GM in these other ZIP codes a Jalmeray scenario..." Regional adventures would flow through Venture Officers, the same ay they request convention scenarios be dropped in to our accounts when we agree to help GM at conventions.So I confess, I still don't understand "convention specials are fine, but not regional specials." Regional specials probably would be convention specials. If not, then you local Venture Officer is making your regional special even easier to play, by bringing it to game days.
Okay Chris I will try again to explain this point. Let's just assume that the furthest other region from me is New York. For me that is over 1000 miles. This does not take into account travel out side of the country. Hell if there is a region separate from mine in Los Angeles that is basically 2000 miles away. So to get to play a Regional Special that I want to play, I could have to travel 2000 miles. This doesn't even account for any Foreign travel it could require, if there are regions out side of the US that are not duplicated locally.
For Convention Specials, I will use the furthest distance I have traveled for a Con recently. This would be to Duluth, approx. 160 miles. This does not even take into account that I could try to run 15 tables in 3 days to get access locally.
So Con Specials, 160 miles (if not local). Regional Specials, 2000 miles (if not foreign). Does that illustrate the difference enough?
3) I tried very hard to explain that I wanted to understand a point of view I find alien, that I knew I must be mischaracterizing that point of view. If you still think that I was "putting words in your mouth" or suggesting that you would do this or that terrible thing, that wasn't my intention.
Chris you outright suggested that people who had an issue with this concept would counsel others to leave. No one suggested that. I have met you several times and I respect you. Perhaps you misremembered some post and thought someone had suggested counselling others to leave I don't know. Frankly it no longer matters, you say it was not intentional I am fine with that. This does not mean however that I will stop defending myself from the people who seem to think I was unreasonably offended. As far as I am concerned you and I are good on that issue, hopefully you feel the same.
But I still don't understand that attitude. It sounds like "I have all the scenarios I used to have, and a local regional one, besides. But I would probably walk away from the campaign -- greywulfe's words -- if the campaign management offered anybody else a regional scenario, too."
I wish you could see those words from my perspective. You, in your quoted text now suggest that we want regional specials all to ourselves. I suspect this is not your intention. To be clear, I could be in the only region that received a regional scenario, I would still find it offensive. I am against Regional Specials, period. For the record Regional Specials are one of many reasons I did not participate in LG.
So, put it in simple words for me: if you don't mind things like the PaizoCon Grand Convocation, or the Gen Con specials that never get played anywhere else, or any other event that's a big deal and really cool, but really far away, why are regional specials so much worse?
PaizoCon and GenCon are special. One is the convention for the company that makes the ever loving game that we are playing. The other is the biggest, hell probably the first, gaming convention in the world. I can accept that they get special things I do not get access to. Does it irk the fairness and equality trigger in me, sure. But I can accept that I miss out on a couple things a year. I can not accept that a large portion, depending on the quantity of regions up to a third,of Paizo's resources earmarked for PFS would go to material that I would not have easy access to. Let me be absolutely clear, there is a huge difference between, two special conventions and several, or many regions. It is a matter of scale.
To people questioning my math, think about how many scenarios we get right now. What is it, 2 scenarios a month? Now lets assume 12 regions, I don't know I am just pulling a number here. Now lets assume Paizo magically finds extra resources to process these additional 12 scenarios a year, something that has been said to be highly unlikely. That is now 1/3 of Paizo's Resources for PFS going to regional scenarios, of which I will have easy access to one, maybe two.
Now the reality, if we implemented Regional Scenarios today, in other words no increase in resources dedicated to PFS which limits us to 2 scenarios per month. That is now half of the resources for PFS going to Regional Scenarios, and it is even more unlikely that I am close to a second region.
People who want to travel will travel, people who don't want to travel won't. I played for over a decade in an organization where if you were not in the correct region, you were second class citizens. I won't waste any time in an organization that heads down that road, and if you don't think Regional Specials is one short step away from that, then I don't know what else I can say to convince you.
EDIT: added a response to point 1
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I still am not convinced that adding regional scenarios will increase the number of people traveling to conventions. Can someone provide data to support the argument that it will? So far I have seen only hypotheticals and anecdotes.
Be honest, this proposal will most benefit people who already attend lots of conventions, and is coincidentally supported strongest by those selfsame individuals.
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Here's a better question, how many people traveled more than 2 hours at least once in the past 12 months to play a game of PFS?
I did, but it was a fluke, and probably, until my finances ever settle out, a one-time thing.
As someone who did have a small amount of excperience with LG, I would have to say I am against the regional idea. Strongly. Then again, that may be because of the region I was in. The Theocracy of the Pale had so many weird rules that it made it difficult to do several character concepts.
And LG had some ... less-than-great ... Intro modules. I mean, really? An Intro module where you either wind up as a cannibal, with some bad notes on your cert, or you have a good chance of winding up fighting a benefactor, who saved your lives? Bleh.
We won't even mention the chase scene through a swamp with no prior warning. Which would be mostly trivialized in PF by the simple memorization of the Create Water orison...
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When living Greyhawk started, I helped organize battle interactives and regional plot.
It was the coolest aspect of the campaign.
I think con attendance was at a max when "cool and unique" items were the rewards. Sometimes just a regional flare item; regional vanities, land, titles, etc. Sometimes custom items not available anywhere else, prestige class access, minor artifacts, banned classes, etc...
LG also started along the lines of Living City where items were "certed" thus requiring con attendance. This allowed the campaign coordinators to completely control what was distributed. That passed away due to cries of "Living Paperwork" to a single cert based system. The big regional cons thrived however some regions simply had more people, they got more stuff and the cries of "open access" were heard. Home gaming was approved however interactives continued to help keep the con gaming going with the unique certs. It eventually got out of control (my opinion) but it was fun to travel and enjoy the diversity. I'd do it again in a minute. Even though my local group would run monthly gamedays, our biggest attendance (and events) were due to interactives and specials.
The best part of regional flare was that adventures could be run with a goal (conclusion)of a certain interactive or battle or crawl. Knowing that how your group did or didn't perform in a mod affected the next adventure, tied everything together and kept the story going. At Gencon, Siege of the Diamond City was run fairly well. If I would have done it, I would have had a mod written that lead directly into the special; whom was involved, what the goals were, preparations, etc.
Since playing PFS for the last year, it has been difficult to follow the story. Perhaps its too complex at the moment, too much going on or a site just needs created that explains the state of past events.. /shrug.
The benefit of regional mods was the discriptor that they followed the regional plot, you came to recognize the story characters and the regional coordinators helped to apply the story in monthly or quarterly web posts. The early LG in Pittsburgh went from 20 players to almost 100 after the first battle interactive went off. We averaged 80 players for 3 years before the campaign fell apart. Thus was a small local con that averaged 200-300 prior for various table top and miniature based games. In two years, a third of the attendance was for LG play.
So the above is the flavor and the ideals...how to make money?
One way; Cons that are organized have and make money. They rent hotel space, they have lots of volunteers, they have the structure in place to run events.
Paizo can sell the specials or interactives or even regional flare events. Combine a prepared set of miniatures, maps and mods. The Con can raffle those off at the end to recoupe some cash or provide them as prizes. I've seen this done and I know it works.
Example, we'll use bonekeep as the foundation. A full size color map, 10-15 figures, printed and water marked chronicles. At $200, the con should be able to recover enough to run the event perhaps 5 times (6 players x 5 slots x $5) = ~$150 plus raffle it off. At even $100, I would think Paizo could still break even. But I don't presume to understand someone else's business structure. Make it just like an ordered event package. These events become the poster children for PFS.
I think if regionalism is to be considered, you start small, gauge interest and income, and go from there.
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so, would it increase the number of people traveling to conventions? the answer would be yes. Would it increase the number much? I have no idea....
I think that the more pertinent question would be is the increased draw to cons, whatever it is worth the use of already strained resources that could go to content for everyone?
This is obviously something that Paizo has do decide after crunching their internal numbers.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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Here's a better question, how many people traveled more than 2 hours at least once in the past 12 months to play a game of PFS?
I have!
But I didn't do it for a boon (biu I confess I used to do so in the LG years and I am happy I got addicted to meeting new gamers.)
My advice: If you travel somewhere for reasons other than Pathfinder Society and you've got time to spare: Try to play Pathfinder Society with the people living there!
Some more advice: If you travel somewhere to play Pathfinder Society with the people living there, try to explore the place you are visiting!
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Forgive my asking, but there's an attitude here that I'm not understanding. I'd appreciate someone taking the time to explain it to me.
Background: There was a Grand Convocation at PaizoCon 2012. I didn't make it to that convention, and didn't get to experience a lot of that content. That's a shame in several ways, but I didn't have the money, and I had other commitments. That's life. (I also didn't get to PaizoCon UK.)
Some years before that, there was a similar gala at PaizoCon. Lots of gaudy boons were handed out, like Taldan noble titles and all. That happened; I wasn't there.
I don't understand people like MrRetsej, or greywulfe, who say that if there's content offered, and they can't access it, that they would quit the campaign. Do you feel the same way about Race to the Runecarved Key, Part Two? (Not the Goblin race boon for the winners, but for the entire second half of the adventure?) That's content that you won't ever get to access, legally for Pathfinder Society. Obviously, you haven't quit the campaign, and I'm glad of that. But what's the distinction? Why is a rare convention-only scenario so much more precious, that being denied it -- because of time, money, other commitments -- would spoil the 26 scenarios and assorted other play opportunities for you?
If someone's location or finances didn't allow her to get to a convention that offered Bonekeep, or Siege of the Diamond City, would you counsel her to quit the campaign?
And, if we follow Dragnmoon's sage advice, you would get access to the convention-exclusive scenarios, when they receive a more general release a year later.
I ask because there's a whole thread just next door, where people are brainstorming about what we can do to make convention experiences better. But it sounds like any attempt to improve conventions will alienate and turn away envious players whose circumstances keep them from those events.
And I don't understand that attitude. I see it as jealousy, and so I'm...
Chris,
I do not see it that way. It is a financial issue and such. Not to mention being able to attend conventions is for those that are not disabled and or have issues where they can not walk a long ways and or stand for long periods of time. Not to mention being unable to go to conventions such as Paizo Con and Gen Con because of said limitations and or other reasons listed above is very real.Not every one has a car or a ride where they can make it. Not everyone is close enough to attend in such a way it is more than a simple financial burden but a travel burden as well.
Is there a little jealousy involved I am sure there is because people are able to go to it and they make it sound so simple, it is not THAT simple. When special boons are given out to ONLY convention goers... and then not being able to attend said conventions because of some type of hardship is grossly unfair. I do not believe in "special" boons for convention goers only and I think that it should be done away with or at least offered to people that do play PFS at local areas such as their own home and or close knit game days and such.
Just because person A has the finances and good health to be able to travel X amount of miles to go to the Grand Convocation and then get a special boon makes me want to quit at times too. I can not blame others for not liking the exclusivity of such events and the elitism that goes with it.
I attend one convention a year and if I get any special boons I 99% of the time give them away to someone that was unable to attend the convention because of it being unfair. I enjoy PFS and wish it would just do away with the elitism that it seems to be fostering right now.
Conventions do not NEED special boons and the like to be able to draw the players to them. As it is a fun way to join a bunch of friends and maybe be able to play a bunch of scenarios all in one weekend. To me THAT is enough and it should be. Not to mention in some of the larger conventions such as Pazio Con and Gen Con it is MORE then enough to draw a lot of players to them with the authors and the special dinners and the like and reveals that happen at them. Boons should not even need to be worried about unless the entirety of the PFS player base can have a chance at them.
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Beckett --
Good point about the regional competition thing discouraging "traitorous" attendance at distant conventions.
The goals, as I understand itare:
1) To encourage current PFS players to attend conventions that they might have otherwise passed on. The reasons for growing conventions has already been explained on another thread.
2) To get people who have come to a convention intending to play other games, to try out Pathfinder instead,and to get excited about the organized play campaign.
If we get lots of the first, that's helpful for getting the second.
To me there is only the second one. To get people to play PFS whether at Conventions, Game day events or at home.
Conventions are cool but again they should ONLY be scenarios and no "special" chronicle sheets and or boons. To me going to a convention should be about the play value and not the elitism of getting something special because "I" am able to go and others are not.
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Instead of regional Scenarios, here is a different Idea that can encourage Traveling to different Conventions and has less development of a full scenario.
Regional Boons.
Create Boons for Separate areas/regions that interact differently with each other as you gather different boons from conventions from different areas around the world.
Getting one boon from a local convention say here in Texas has minor boon, while if I get another boon from say Colorado or Seattle the 2 interact with each other for a better affect.
Say of I go all the way to Australia for a convention, all the boons I already have and due to the distance traveled come together for an even greater affect.
This is just a basic framework of an idea, a lot would have to be put into how they would actual work with each other and how to determine greater rewards based on the traveling.
This..
I think this is a FAR better idea for those who like to travel versus "regional scenarios".. Low development time, and we could get VO's to help out and create their own regional ones as well. Masters Compton and Brock would have to look over and approve them, and then they would only be good for a certain convention or period of time.
Those who travel win cause they get something they wouldn't get elsewhere, those who don't travel win because then they get boons of their own in their own local regions.
I don't buy the whole "Regional Scenarios" proposal based on my previous statements in this topic. You can put all the ideas and numbers you want to try and justify this proposal. (And I won't stop you!) But we're still coming back to the issue of we just want more things to play. We have been told multiple times that we are getting what we are getting, and until we have the numbers to prove otherwise, don't expect any more than that. So we need to be focused on building a stronger and more positive presence for PFS so that we can earn more scenarios. Cause us talking about this isn't doing it.
But at the end of the day, I prefer quality over quantity. And so if quantity is not going to be increased, I'll take quality games wherever I go over a "special event" any day.
I think, instead of all these "we demand more things" threads, we should be talking about how we grow our bases and make our PFS communities stronger, better, and worthy of our demands. There is a saying that goes, we have to back up what we want. Other posters in this thread have let us know, that we do not back up what we want based on raw data, and how we treat each other in these threads.
So why would anyone want to give us more stuff to squabble about? Food for thought.
/soapbox and goes back to doing more productive things for PFS.
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Up thread Kyle mentioned merely delaying access to "Regional Scenarios", by a month or so. Personally this would not bother me anywhere near as much, as long as every region got an equal number in a given year.
I don't see any real gain in this system, nor do I feel it would be a good thing, but I do not find it objectionable.
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Here's a better question, how many people traveled more than 2 hours at least once in the past 12 months to play a game of PFS?
I traveled over two hours four times this past year (would have been five except the con fell on my anniversary). I met some great people, formed friendships, and learned a thing or two about being a better GM, player, and organizer.
When I travel to other places, I almost exclusively GM; I don't go to play. If I have the time and ability, I volunteer. If I don't volunteer my time to GM then someone else might not get to play and this is a bad thing.
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Here's a thought...
What if playing in other 'regions' is not about playing in adventures you could never play anywhere else? What if you tied the regions to player benefits? Perhaps opening up a couple of regional-flavored classes or prestige classes...access to interesting items...even loose 'hard-to-quantify' regional benefits, such as extra prestige which can only be used for certain in-game benefits, such as spellcasting, unusual familiars, etc.? That would pull much of the burden of writers and 'production' away from Paizo staff. At most, you'd have someone who would go through each module (as they did with the revamp on fame/prestige older scenarios) deciding what 'additional benefit' might be had from playing in certain regions?
It would pull a bit of the 'regional flair' from the old LG days into PFS, without the need for limited-play events.
Just brainstorming.
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I'd love regional events. I love to go to Con's. I love to travel and inject money into an area while participating in my hobby.
However, Paizo needs to give me a reason to go to a con, because as it stands with the current system, I can play at home and judge and never have to travel, and it's BORING.
Winter Fantasy is coming next month, and to me that was one of the 3 Cons I go to every year. Last year I was more than excited because of Bonekeep. This year they will not have Bonekeep level 3, and so I wont go.
That means that I won't inject a little over a thousand dollars into the economy of that Area and convention. (Between dealer purchases, gas, food, lodging, cost of con, cost of the bar etc.)
It would be fantastic if there would be Battle Interactives, special con only scenario's and more. I wouldn't mind going and spending money on paizo product to make this happen.
I'd love to go and see some friends I havent seen in forever, but for a limited amount of play opportunities and nothing unique for the offering, why expend the money? If they had regional events, I'd have a reason to go, a reason to travel out of state and engage people and it would be awesome.
#longingforlg
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I'd love regional events. I love to go to Con's. I love to travel and inject money into an area while participating in my hobby.
However, Paizo needs to give me a reason to go to a con, because as it stands with the current system, I can play at home and judge and never have to travel, and it's BORING.
Wait, why can't you just go to cons because you love cons and throwing money into things? Isn't that a reason?
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No, it is not.
If I am going to spend a lot of money traveling, than I want something for it. I used to travel to 15 cons a year in my LG heyday, to play in different regions, that I couldn't play anywhere else.
That's not the case anymore.
At least with Region's that would be a fantastic way to get to meet new people at new cons that would pop up.
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Cons give the people that travel to them a chance to break out of the normal gaming community, however, in this economy there needs to be that draw to bring people out.
I agree with SoA on this one ... If I'm going to go to a con there are a few criteria it has to meet for me:
A: A con that I love to go to and will go regardless (i.e. Gencon, Ucon etc)
B: There is a super awesome kewl GM boon (because really when do I play)
C: There would have to be something that would make me want to play -- i.e. that the proverbial carrot waved looming in front of me that makes me spend my hardearned money on the trip and the hotel and the drinks etc.
So for those of you questioning SoA ask yourself, what would it take to get you to a convention (take real world restrictions out of the equation and just think with a gamer brain); and that is what we are talking about.
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That means that I won't inject a little over a thousand dollars into the economy of that Area and convention. (Between dealer purchases, gas, food, lodging, cost of con, cost of the bar etc.)
It also means that you WILL spend money in your local area instead. Gas, food, entertainment, maybe even some games and gaming supplies.
People have mentioned this argument several times, and I have questioned it several times, but no one has answered my question. Why does Paizo care WHERE you spend your money? Paizo wants you to buy their products. Do they really care that you are buying gas and food in some city you are visiting instead of buying gas and food in your hometown?
What incentive does Paizo have to spend their resources to try to entice me to spend my resources on air travel and hotel lodging? Shouldn't they be better served trying to convince me to stay home and spend money in my local game store on their new books and play with my local friends?
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B: There is a super awesome kewl GM boon (because really when do I play)My question for you is that if you don't actually play all that often, does the boon really matter? If you're not likely to utilize the boon, would it provide a lot of motivation to attend the event?
Because when I do play, I will have a really kewl character to play ..
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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What incentive does Paizo have to spend their resources to try to entice me to spend my resources on air travel and hotel lodging?
The most common argument is that a convention is the best place to find new customers, so it is in Paizo's best interests to have their presence at the con be as visible as possible. If a con offers two or three (or even ten) tables of Pathfinder games put on by individual GMs that's one thing; a large gaming area filled, every hour of the convention, by perhaps twenty tables of PFS tells a very different story.
Paizo aren't trying to convince you to buy their products; they are trying to use the fact that you choose to spend money on their products to convince other people that they too might like to try Pathfinder.
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Cons give the people that travel to them a chance to break out of the normal gaming community, however, in this economy there needs to be that draw to bring people out.
I agree with SoA on this one ... If I'm going to go to a con there are a few criteria it has to meet for me:
A: A con that I love to go to and will go regardless (i.e. Gencon, Ucon etc)
B: There is a super awesome kewl GM boon (because really when do I play)
C: There would have to be something that would make me want to play -- i.e. that the proverbial carrot waved looming in front of me that makes me spend my hardearned money on the trip and the hotel and the drinks etc.
So for those of you questioning SoA ask yourself, what would it take to get you to a convention (take real world restrictions out of the equation and just think with a gamer brain); and that is what we are talking about.
D: I'm there.
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D: I'm there.Cons give the people that travel to them a chance to break out of the normal gaming community, however, in this economy there needs to be that draw to bring people out.
I agree with SoA on this one ... If I'm going to go to a con there are a few criteria it has to meet for me:
A: A con that I love to go to and will go regardless (i.e. Gencon, Ucon etc)
B: There is a super awesome kewl GM boon (because really when do I play)
C: There would have to be something that would make me want to play -- i.e. that the proverbial carrot waved looming in front of me that makes me spend my hardearned money on the trip and the hotel and the drinks etc.
So for those of you questioning SoA ask yourself, what would it take to get you to a convention (take real world restrictions out of the equation and just think with a gamer brain); and that is what we are talking about.
OOoooooo there is that too
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I agree with SoA on this one ... If I'm going to go to a con there are a few criteria it has to meet for me:
Less that I'm questioning SoA, (and the bleeding irony of that statement is not lost on me, ha ha ha), as wondering the way I interpreted what he/she said what they meant or would there be a better way to word that differently to make their point more clear?
It seemed a bit, . . . entitled, and wasn't sure if that was the point or not. I think that you (general) and I (general) also have different views on Cons. To me, they are not something that had better be worth the time and money I put into it and better than just played an otherwise crappy game at home. They are a sort of combination of vacation and a special opportunity to see how even more other players do things, to learn new styles and tactics, and maybe to pick up some cool stuff, either by winning Boons (which I do not expect at all, but neither am I against), or different books, knick-knacks, dice, mini's, or whatever that I don't normally see in the local shops. It is basically it's own reward, so asking for even more exclusivity, at the expense of (r with the illusion of at the expense of everything else) just doesn't sound like a good idea.
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I agree with SoA on this one ... If I'm going to go to a con there are a few criteria it has to meet for me:Less that I'm questioning SoA, (and the bleeding irony of that statement is not lost on me, ha ha ha), as wondering the way I interpreted what he/she said what they meant or would there be a better way to word that differently to make their point more clear?
It seemed a bit, . . . entitled, and wasn't sure if that was the point or not. I think that you (general) and I (general) also have different views on Cons. To me, they are not something that had better be worth the time and money I put into it and better than just played an otherwise crappy game at home. They are a sort of combination of vacation and a special opportunity to see how even more other players do things, to learn new styles and tactics, and maybe to pick up some cool stuff, either by winning Boons (which I do not expect at all, but neither am I against), or different books, knick-knacks, dice, mini's, or whatever that I don't normally see in the local shops. It is basically it's own reward, so asking for even more exclusivity, at the expense of (r with the illusion of at the expense of everything else) just doesn't sound like a good idea.
On one hand I agree with you, they are vacations and they are a chance to see friends, hang out and have fun. On the other hand if you are one like who volunteers to GM the whole thing, then there are other things that I look at versus just being a vacation.
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On one hand I agree with you, they are vacations and they are a chance to see friends, hang out and have fun. On the other hand if you are one like who volunteers to GM the whole thing, then there are other things that I look at versus just being a vacation.I agree with SoA on this one ... If I'm going to go to a con there are a few criteria it has to meet for me:Less that I'm questioning SoA, (and the bleeding irony of that statement is not lost on me, ha ha ha), as wondering the way I interpreted what he/she said what they meant or would there be a better way to word that differently to make their point more clear?
It seemed a bit, . . . entitled, and wasn't sure if that was the point or not. I think that you (general) and I (general) also have different views on Cons. To me, they are not something that had better be worth the time and money I put into it and better than just played an otherwise crappy game at home. They are a sort of combination of vacation and a special opportunity to see how even more other players do things, to learn new styles and tactics, and maybe to pick up some cool stuff, either by winning Boons (which I do not expect at all, but neither am I against), or different books, knick-knacks, dice, mini's, or whatever that I don't normally see in the local shops. It is basically it's own reward, so asking for even more exclusivity, at the expense of (r with the illusion of at the expense of everything else) just doesn't sound like a good idea.
Yeah, working a Con is not really a vacation. Even though its doing something you love, you aren't just there for your own personal entertainment.
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Yeah, working a Con is not really a vacation. Even though its doing something you love, you aren't just there for your own personal entertainment.On one hand I agree with you, they are vacations and they are a chance to see friends, hang out and have fun. On the other hand if you are one like who volunteers to GM the whole thing, then there are other things that I look at versus just being a vacation.I agree with SoA on this one ... If I'm going to go to a con there are a few criteria it has to meet for me:Less that I'm questioning SoA, (and the bleeding irony of that statement is not lost on me, ha ha ha), as wondering the way I interpreted what he/she said what they meant or would there be a better way to word that differently to make their point more clear?
It seemed a bit, . . . entitled, and wasn't sure if that was the point or not. I think that you (general) and I (general) also have different views on Cons. To me, they are not something that had better be worth the time and money I put into it and better than just played an otherwise crappy game at home. They are a sort of combination of vacation and a special opportunity to see how even more other players do things, to learn new styles and tactics, and maybe to pick up some cool stuff, either by winning Boons (which I do not expect at all, but neither am I against), or different books, knick-knacks, dice, mini's, or whatever that I don't normally see in the local shops. It is basically it's own reward, so asking for even more exclusivity, at the expense of (r with the illusion of at the expense of everything else) just doesn't sound like a good idea.
exactly
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And there is a big difference between going to a con and volunteering. The implication of going to a Con in your A, B, C was to go for the carrot. Obviously volunteering at a Con should offer special rewards. I assumed that went without saying, just like that the majority of people that go to Cons and Events do not volunteer or run them.
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Yeah, working a Con is not really a vacation. Even though its doing something you love, you aren't just there for your own personal entertainment.
Something I strongly disagree with. Why "work" a convention if it isn't fun and a break from your daily life? Is that not the definition of a vacation?
va·ca·tion
vāˈkāSHən,və-/Submit
noun
1. an extended period of recreation, esp. one spent away from home or in traveling.
I've done the whole "GM 5 days straight" thing at Gen Con (not quite like Todd Morgan, but that dude's insane). At the end of it I was exhausted, in pain, and swearing I'd never do it again. Will I do it again? Probably not, but in the end I still had fun. It was still a vacation and a great chance to see my friends and meet new people. I still remember Steve Miller's paladin playing at my table in the last slot in Among the Dead. Hadn't met Steve before that day. So very glad I did.
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And there is a big difference between going to a con and volunteering. The implication of going to a Con in your A, B, C was to go for the carrot. Obviously volunteering at a Con should offer special rewards. I assumed that went without saying, just like that the majority of people that go to Cons and Events do not volunteer or run them.
Everyone is going to have a different "carrot" that they need or look for when they are going to a convention, regardless of the capacity in which they are going.
I gave you mine, those are things I look for no matter what role I'm filling when going to a convention. My role when going to conventions is changing as I don't feel the push to "catch up" to those that I hang out with at conventions. It's hard to not be a 5-start GM and hang with the likes of Doug Miles, Kyle Baird, Bob Jonquet, Todd Morgan, etc... So I put the pressure on myself to get there faster which meant that I was GMing the entirety of conventions.
Now that I don't have that pressure, I can take more time at conventions to relax and have fun away from the table.
So before, my criteria basically was can I judge the scenarios I want to.. it has now expanded to the list I gave you before.
Different carrots for different people and different roles at the conventions. There is no way to please everybody, but there has to be a way to draw people to conventions -- both big and small -- and make it so that they want to take time off of work and travel outside of the local area, and spend money and spend time sitting at a table with other smelly people (summer conventions lol).
There HAS to be that carrot to draw them in regardless if you like/attend conventions. There has to be that draw... what that draw is .. who knows.. but fighting against having that draw is the equivalent of running into a brick wall repeatedly.
Is it unfair to those that for whatever reason cannot make it to conventions -- it's more of a sucky situation than an unfair situation; taking away the boons and carrots for those that attend conventions because you (general) can't is unfair.
*** before anyone starts on me about entitlement I'm not using that as an argument. I'm saying that saying You can't have x because I can't have x is unfair.
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Was it a bit entitled? Sure when isn't something that someone wants an entitlement?
I play with the same people a lot. I like to go out and meet new people at conventions and show off my creations. Because. They are really creations.
I'd like conventions to have something to make me want to show up for them. With Greyhawk, I had a reason to travel and spend time and money elsewhere. I couldn't play the mods anywhere in my area so I had to travel.
I'm sorry, but if I have money to spend on going to a convention, and that convention has an exclusive, if I can I will go. Some are saying entitlement, but in all honesty. Everything in this entire thread is all about entitlement.
If there is a mod that plays somewhere at a Con and you can't go, than it shouldn't exist because you don't get a chance to play it. Hey that's being entitled no more than me saying. "Hey I have money to blow and vacation days so I'm going to this Con for a weekend of Mods that I wont be able to play back home."
I've gone to Con's. I've Iron Maned Gen Con three years back to back, including pregames at Scotties. The last time I did it I just about died from getting whupping cough.
That for just Gen Con alone puts me at 48 tables run at three different Gen Cons. I went and worked, and I had zero time to do anything else fun. But I did it because it gave other people a (semi) good time.
Kyle, I myself personally worked Conventions like Origins / Gen Con, because I didn't have the income level I do now, and it was my only way to go.
Going back to my point. Paizo is actively trying for my business. They want me to participate in their shop, buying Mini's, maps, books etc. The way they accomplish actively vying for my business is through the PFS game world. I have no complaints now about how this is done.
However this also comes with the understanding that, because there are no reasons to travel or pay money to a Convention to play Paizo product - I can't help them actively recruit new players in a setting that is entirely acquisition based. That is a Con setting first and foremost. Game Days help in a local store, but Places like Gen Con, Origins are places where Paizo can bring more people into their fold and thus increase product sales.
All I'm saying is, give a reason for your local area to have something to draw other people in, to increase attendance, and by having higher visibility in your local cons you can thus increase player acquisition because people will want to know what the large crowd is from.
(On that point, if this thread is being watched. The Goblin Delves? Those are fantastic and I hope you guys release those to Cons at least to help garner interest in Society!)
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.... an author can write region specific things into the regional scenario (such as retired characters and meta-regional plot lines)...
This is finally starting to make a bit more sense to me. I never played any of the previous Organized RPG games, and I have never understood any appeal to regional content, but I can see an appeal in this.
This can be done independent of regional limitations, but many of the previously mentioned limiting factors are of course still in effect.
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I must be a member of an ever-decreasing minority who don't need any extra incentive to attend a convention. Having a good time, getting a lot of condensed play, hanging out with old friends and meeting new ones, helping provide others with a good experience, etc. is reward enough. I'm sorry, but if you require something in addition to those things and the normal rewards for playing (level advancement, chronicles, etc) then maybe you should take stock in how you view your gaming experience. And no, I'm not saying you're doing it wrong, just saying that your expectation for "extra" rewards for playing might not be reasonable.
I find it funny (odd not comedic) that some people seem to think Paizo owes them something extra for attending a convention or that they owe it to the rest of the players that could/would not attend the convention to get the shiny as well. I did not get a goblin boon from GenCon despite GMing both the first and second parts of the special, nor have I attended PaizoCon where some exclusive boons have been released. Neither of those, nor anything else I've missed out on, has negatively impacted my experience with PFS or my enjoyment of it.
Just my 2cp