The first thing you do is find a weapon close to what you are using. The problem here is there isn't any.
If I where to give damages, I'd say they wouldn't deal ANY damage. My reason is simple. Fill a backpack with 3 pounds of feathers. Have fun at the pillow fight... Now look at a coin. Around the same size as a throwing star without the sharp edges to cause any damage. At best I might let it deal 1 damage on fragile objects like glass.
Considering that a handy haversack is light weight and its contents exist in another plane, you can't do any damage with it. You're basically hitting someone with an empty bag.
The coin is too small and not sharp enough to do any damage. A coin is NOT the same size as a shuriken unless it's a really big coin. The only way you could do any damage with something as small and weak as a coin is when using Arcane Strike.
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
For the coin its damage is 1d2 if you would treat it as medium size weapon and range 10 feet, or just 1d1 if a small weapon with a range of 10 feet. Either way it would be using the coin as an improvised weapon since coins are not crafted to be used as weapons. More power to you if you got some 20 strength hulking character that tosses a coin for an easy 1+7 damage at first level with point blank shot. I admit its weird to think of a pc tossing his money at enemies to hurt them, but that is pretty much the point of the Catch Off-Guard / Throw Anything feats; being inventive with whatever you can find to use as a weapon.
Ahhh... Why would a coin do the same damage as a shuriken when it weighs 1/5th the weight and isn't sharp? It's like giving a kitchen knife longsword damage...
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.For the coin its damage is 1d2 if you would treat it as medium size weapon and range 10 feet, or just 1d1 if a small weapon with a range of 10 feet. Either way it would be using the coin as an improvised weapon since coins are not crafted to be used as weapons. More power to you if you got some 20 strength hulking character that tosses a coin for an easy 1+7 damage at first level with point blank shot. I admit its weird to think of a pc tossing his money at enemies to hurt them, but that is pretty much the point of the Catch Off-Guard / Throw Anything feats; being inventive with whatever you can find to use as a weapon.
Yes, but it must still be within practicality. A coin would not be 'a small weapon'. Coins would be a tiny weapon at best, probably even smaller. When a weapon gets that small, it would be a logical conclusion to arrive at that it wouldn't be able to do any lethal damage.
If you're not convinced, feel free to try this: Take out a quarter right now. From ten feet away, throw it as hard as you can at a hard surface you don't mind damaging.(Mine was a already damaged interior door in my 100+ year old house) Assess the damage and then see if you can conclude that it could do damage to a human being, not even considering clothes, armor, or other gear. My conclusion: Not even close.
There is even a myth buster episode where they test if a penny going 60mph could hurt someone. They concluded that it couldn't. They even took turns shooting it at each other. Do you think you could throw a coin at 60mph?
Either way, what can be used as an improvised weapon is generally up to the GM, and if we try to give meaningful statistics to items that are utterly and completely impractical as weapons we are going into murky waters.
Ahhh... Why would a coin do the same damage as a shuriken when it weighs 1/5th the weight and isn't sharp? It's like giving a kitchen knife longsword damage...
Kitchen Knife = 1d4 = Knife = 1d4
@ IQuqrent: I agree realistically it wouldn't work. I agree that its up GM discretion on what can be used generally as an improvised weapon but anything not specifically crafted for normal warfare is fair game.
I can certainly use a coin as an improvised melee weapon, by pushing it through the goblin/kobold/duregar/drow/etc's eye. Normally I could just use my thumb for the exact same purpose but by doing it this way I am using a non-conventional weapon to harm another. Absolute minimum for such a weapon is 1, add the strength score of say 20, maybe throw in power attack, and you get 1+6 or 7 bludgeoning damage.
The entire world is filled with Improvised Weapons.
Improvised Weapons are NEVER conventional weapons.
Improvised Weapons are NOT specifically crafted to be used as weapons.
A Chair Leg
A Tankard
A Shard of Glass
Rocks (Any Wield-able Size)
Sticks (Any Wield-able Size)
A Torch
A Fork
A Butter Knife
A Spoon
A Inkwell Quill
A Pipe
A Crowbar
A Frozen Fish
A Brick
A Anvil
A Balancing Scale
A Shoe
A Book
A Tiny Wooden Effigy
A Vase
A Anchor
A Wooden Stitching Needle
A Ceramic Dinner Plate
A Ceramic Bowl
A Backpack Full of Coins
A Bust (Statue)
A Pair of Tongs
A Trophy
A Snow Globe
A Metal Helmet
A Steel Pipe (For Smoking)
A Table
A Chair
After the short list, I still just find it strange that a coin cannot be used as a ranged improvised weapon.
You didn't get what I was saying. A shuriken weighs 5 times a coin, much like a longsword might weight 5 times that of a kitchen knife. Hence my statement.
And I disagree that 1 in the minimum damage. Looking on the weapon damage dice by size, you'll notice that under 1 damage there is a - entry, meaning that less than 1 damage deals NO damage. (see tiny/large weapon damage table) That is why you don't see coin as an ranged improvised weapon.
EDIT: for me, to deal real damage with a coin, you'd need a feat like Deadly Dealer that lets an item that doesn't normally deal damage to do so.
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It would be 1d1 (Bludgeoning) 10 Foot Range.
Melee shortsword +0 (1d2-4/19-20)
Ranged shortbow +7 (1d2-4)
Str 3, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 10
Sure its conventional weaponry but I wanted to bring up the size, damage for dice, and the STR score.
1d2 for a Diminutive Shortsword.
3 STR (-4 Penalty)
Damage can never deal anything below 1 so long as their is a damage die, no matter how low the STR penalty. The higher the STR score, the more one can deal damage. I can toss a smoothed rock (bludgeoning) of similar size and weight to a coin and it is considered a valid Improvised Weapon to use. If I change the fluff or description of the rock to a coin... "A rose by any other name smells just as sweet".
Weight hardly has any meaning in the matter as magical materials for weapons and armor can halve that weight. Size only reduces the damage die if you go smaller, it increases in the damage die for each size category larger than medium. The second I treat something as an improvised weapon it is assigned a damage dice. No matter how out of the ordinary for conventional combat.
ALSO: This is a fantasy world created by using Fluff and Game Mechanics.
Early Guns exist.
Magic bends the law of physics.
Cthulhu exists.
Gods exist.
Divine Magic exists.
Arcane Magic exists.
Ghosts Exist.
The dead can be raised as Zombies/Skeletons.
People can be resurrected from death's doorstep.
Golems Exist.
Goblins/Orcs/Hobgoblins/Kobolds EXIST.
Alchemical Formulas used to make bombs, mutagens, and extracts... exist.
Every Cryptoid such as Sasquatch, Mothman, or a Chupacabra do indeed... exist.
If you want a realistic world, I hate to break this to you, but Pathfinder is very far removed from what we know in reality as "realistic". That is not to say that people on Golarion eat stones, drink tree sap, never sleep, and never age. Oh no its not that at all. What it is that you take OUR reality and then put it Pathfinder where the entire world gets blended with all the things that we consider SHOULD NOT HAPPEN OR CANNOT EXIST.
So I will ask you, how is it impossible that a coin can be used as a ranged improvised weapon? This is one of the most bizarre arguments I ever seen on here, right up there with the threads that talked about "Can I use my elbows/knees/feet/etc for Stunning Fist?" and how it was argued FOR AND AGAINST being able to do that IS just as baffling.
The reason why people are disbelieving the idea is simple. Shock Value. Its not normal, it works, the concept sounds ridiculous. Simply because in Pathfinder the money is treated as an abstract concept rather than a physical object. It is still used to buy goods and services, however you got people lugging around several thousand Gold Piece coins just to buy some +1 Flaming Sword.
Excuse me, I will be letting myself walk away from this as I nearly gave my headache over this bizarre topic
I'll once again point towards the Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage. Looking at it, it is in fact possible to take damage to nothing, making the statement "Damage can never deal anything below 1 so long as their is a damage die" 100% false. Look at the table and you see 1 and - damage on the chart. A tiny 1d2 weapon deals NO damage as per the RAW chart. A coin 1/5th the weight of a shuriken should be at least 1 size smaller taking the damage from 1d2 to - and that's before you take in the fact that it's not sharp...
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I'll once again point towards the Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage. Looking at it, it is in fact possible to take damage to nothing, making the statement "Damage can never deal anything below 1 so long as their is a damage die" 100% false. Look at the table and you see 1 and - damage on the chart. A tiny 1d2 weapon deals NO damage as per the RAW chart. A coin 1/5th the weight of a shuriken should be at least 1 size smaller taking the damage from 1d2 to - and that's before you take in the fact that it's not sharp...
Diminutive Shortsword: 1d2-4 = 1.
It is literally impossible to do damage below 1 unless special conditions are used as well. I list three examples, not all of the possibilities but here they are:
1) Damage Reduction (IE: DR 1/-)
2) Nonlethal on Undead* = No Damage
3) You are attacking a Fine or Diminutive Swarm with a Weapon.
*=Not restricted To Undead, but limited to only any creature immune to nonlethal damage.
To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list TO FIND A REASONABLE MATCH. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
The only reasonable match for a coin is 1d1 or 1d2, a Shuriken.
... (Bludgeoning) 10 Foot Range.
You have two options:
1) Make a needless new rule or to reinvent the wheel2) Use the blanket statement rule to simplify the process and to prevent rules headache.
If you chose option 1, this is a House Rule and is thus considered invalid in any Sanctioned Play.
Does this mean I can use belly button fluff, a rabbit's foot, a live spider, a piece of paper, a rubber band, a common swab, or a wig as weapons that can deal damage?
If a throw a grape at someone a hundred times, does this mean that they would die because it's "impossible" to do less than 1 damage?
Saying that any item is a valid improvised weapon that can deal damage, let alone lethal damage, is illogical.
Yes, you have to do a minimum of 1 damage on a hit with an actual weapon, be it improvised of otherwise.
Technically if a weapon would do less than 1 lethal damage due to modifiers, it does 1 point of non-lethal
Minimum Damage
If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.
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Does this mean I can use belly button fluff, a rabbit's foot, a live spider, a piece of paper, a rubber band, a common swab, or a wig as weapons that can deal damage?
If I throw a soft plush animal at you does it hurt? If I toss a metal coin at your face does it hurt?
It doesn't need to break the skin or break a bone to cause damage.
Most of what you suggest is more ridiculous than a piece of metal flying at your face.
If a throw a grape at someone a hundred times, does this mean that they would die because it's "impossible" to do less than 1 damage?
A grape. Really? Please sir go for a fruit with a tougher exterior than a grape such as a Watermelon, Honey Dew Melon, Grapefruit, or even an Apple or Orange. A grape would bounce harmlessly off, its not of the same as an apple which is actually tougher and can actually hurt more than a simple grape.
I also refer you to the following quote. Not only arrows but other items of fragile materials such as a Crystal Chakram.
Durable arrows don’t break due to normal use, whether or not they hit their target...
Saying that any item is a valid improvised weapon that can deal damage, let alone lethal damage, is illogical.
Unlike several lines of games run by the company known as White Wolf for the World of Darkness universe where there is Bashing/Lethal/Aggravated for damage levels, in D&D/PF there is only Nonlethal and Lethal.
If it cannot do lethal damage as you suggest, it has to deal nonlethal.
Also you know whats really illogical?
Does this mean I can use belly button fluff, a rabbit's foot, a live spider, a piece of paper, a rubber band, a common swab, or a wig as weapons that can deal damage?
The comment in the beginning of your quote. Its nothing more than a swing at the cheap seats in a flimsy attempt of a rebuttal.
You made your point T.M. Right now there is not much else you can say. You should take it easy and just ignore this topic as I am guessing from this comment you made that its not making you to happy.
Excuse me, I will be letting myself walk away from this as I nearly gave my headache over this bizarre topic.
If people want to continue discussing this topic, that is just fine. However please try to be polite and reasonable in the thread.
Does this mean I can use belly button fluff, a rabbit's foot, a live spider, a piece of paper, a rubber band, a common swab, or a wig as weapons that can deal damage?If I throw a soft plush animal at you does it hurt? If I toss a metal coin at your face does it hurt?
It doesn't need to break the skin or break a bone to cause damage.
Most of what you suggest is more ridiculous than a piece of metal flying at your face.
If a throw a grape at someone a hundred times, does this mean that they would die because it's "impossible" to do less than 1 damage?A grape. Really? Please sir go for a fruit with a tougher exterior than a grape such as a Watermelon, Honey Dew Melon, Grapefruit, or even an Apple or Orange. A grape would bounce harmlessly off, its not of the same as an apple which is actually tougher and can actually hurt more than a simple grape.
I also refer you to the following quote. Not only arrows but other items of fragile materials such as a Crystal Chakram.
Durable arrows don’t break due to normal use, whether or not they hit their target...Saying that any item is a valid improvised weapon that can deal damage, let alone lethal damage, is illogical.Unlike several lines of games run by the company known as White Wolf for the World of Darkness universe where there is Bashing/Lethal/Aggravated for damage levels, in D&D/PF there is only Nonlethal and Lethal.
If it cannot do lethal damage as you suggest, it has to deal nonlethal.
Also you know whats really illogical?
Does this mean I can use belly button fluff, a rabbit's foot, a live spider, a piece of paper, a rubber band, a common swab, or a wig as weapons that can deal damage?The comment in the beginning of your quote. Its nothing more than a swing at the cheap seats in a flimsy attempt of a rebuttal.
You have COMPLETELY MISSED MY POINT. The choice of a grape was intentional, BECAUSE it would bounce harmlessly off. You seem to be claiming that any object would do damage if used as a weapon even if the object is literally incapable of hurting someone.
In your haste to prove that I am an idiot you have completely failed to address my argument. I really don't see the point of personally insulting me. You believe what you want. If you are going to be disrespectful than I think I would rather leave the discussion than try to explain your misunderstanding of my argument.
Bye.
Keep it civil, folks. Thanks!
Diminutive Shortsword: 1d2-4 = 1.It is literally impossible to do damage below 1 unless special conditions are used as well. I list three examples, not all of the possibilities but here they are:
Pull out your core rulebook once. Open it to page 145. Look at table 6-5. Find shuriken damage on THAT table. What does it tell you the damage is if you drop it's size? It does NO damage as a weapon of that size deals none!
Remember the coin is 1/5th the weight of a shuriken so that sounds like a size reduction as per table. If not you end up saying that a 1lb table knife could do the damage of a 4 lb long sword...
As noted above a 1d2-4 weapon deals NO lethal damage. I think problem with the way you are thinking is that a weapon HAS to stay a lethal weapon. How much damage are you letting a mug do? At 10 times the weight of a d2 coin it must do huge damage.
Also, by the chart, a Diminutive Shortsword should do 1 point of damage. I'll assume the 1d2 you are talking about was from a monster entry as they don't have to follow the normal rules.