Correct. The friendship is a lie. Does a lie make it rape?If she was already okay with sleeping with her friends, then charm person isnt forcing anything on her.You are not her friend! She thinks you are, because magic!
Exact. I frankly cannot understand how people are arguing that lying to them = rape. What is going on here? What the spell does is clear. What is written on the faq is clear. Youre not forcing them, They have the free will to choose.
Holy hell this thread has gone to a really dark place.
INFORMED CONSENT IS SACRED. Charm Person violates it.
End of story.
Diplomacy > friendly > ask them to sleep with you > they accept = rape.
What?
To sum this up: ANYTHING BUT...
A conscious
Sober,
18 years or older,
Uncoerced "Yes"
... IS A NO!Charm person would clearly not fulfill the last one, and thus wouldn't count as consent.
if you use charm person if would not be coerced. no GM trying to follow the spirit of the spell Charm Person should allow said NPC to perform said act if under the alternate method of performing said action the NPC would not comply. using the dominate line of spells would be coercing the NPC. the charm person spell only makes the person reguard you as a trusted friend.
if you use charm person if would not be coerced. no GM trying to follow the spirit of the spell Charm Person should allow said NPC to perform said act if under the alternate method of performing said action the NPC would not comply. using the dominate line of spells would be coercing the NPC. the charm person spell only makes the person reguard you as a trusted friend.
To sum this up: ANYTHING BUT...
A conscious
Sober,
18 years or older,
Uncoerced "Yes"
... IS A NO!Charm person would clearly not fulfill the last one, and thus wouldn't count as consent.
Thats exactly what im saying, they wont do it if they dont want to. Its so simple!
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Holy hell this thread has gone to a really dark place.
INFORMED CONSENT IS SACRED. Charm Person violates it.
End of story.
Then you agree that convincing someone you have a better car or job then you actually do is rape? Having sex with someone who thinks you are a cat person when really you hate cats, is rape? Any lie violates informed consent, does it not?
Diplomacy/bluff to convince someone to have sex with you must be rape then.
Oh my...
Thats exactly what im saying, they wont do it if they dont want to. Its so simple!You are a disgusting piece of s*&%.
I didnt attacked anyone here, keep it civil. Name calling is against the "no jerks" rule of the forum.
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I'm bowing out at this point, because I find this reasoning really disturbing.Ill have to disagree with this, depending on the situation of said NPC. If she was already okay with sleeping with her friends, then charm person isnt forcing anything on her. She sees you as a friend, and if shes okay with it then its not rape. Charm person isnt a compulsion spell, youre not taking away her free will to choose. If she does it, its consensual. Remember, charm person is a Charm spell, not compulsion one.She didn't consent to sleep with you. I'm not sure what's unclear about this. YOU DO NOT HAVE HER CONSENT.Im gonna chime in be the black sheep and say this is not rape for real.
If the barmaid sleeps with her friends, then its her problem. Charm person makes you look like her friend. If she gets convinced to sleep with you, its because she have no problems with doing so.
Its easy to put morals in front of facts, but it doesnt change the fact the she still have to be okay with sleeping with friends for the spell to do it. Its not rape, its consensual.
Yeah, this is quite disturbing.
Even the very fact that it can be called "reasoning" makes salient how the dominant discourse (what bell hooks calls imperialist white supremacist capitalist patriarchy) infiltrates our very language. What part of the faculty of reasoning does the objectification of women arise out of? It must be a very dark place, manifesting in incidences like this thread.
I am not entirely sure what purpose this discussion even has, seeing as the basic premises that women are people and that sex has been taken into institutions of unequal power seems completely lost on some of the rape apologists here. Where does one even being to start a dialogue when these conditions haven't been met?
I'm bowing out at this point, because I find this reasoning really disturbing.Ill have to disagree with this, depending on the situation of said NPC. If she was already okay with sleeping with her friends, then charm person isnt forcing anything on her. She sees you as a friend, and if shes okay with it then its not rape. Charm person isnt a compulsion spell, youre not taking away her free will to choose. If she does it, its consensual. Remember, charm person is a Charm spell, not compulsion one.She didn't consent to sleep with you. I'm not sure what's unclear about this. YOU DO NOT HAVE HER CONSENT.Im gonna chime in be the black sheep and say this is not rape for real.
If the barmaid sleeps with her friends, then its her problem. Charm person makes you look like her friend. If she gets convinced to sleep with you, its because she have no problems with doing so.
Its easy to put morals in front of facts, but it doesnt change the fact the she still have to be okay with sleeping with friends for the spell to do it. Its not rape, its consensual.
Yeah, this is quite disturbing.
Even the very fact that it can be called "reasoning" makes salient how the dominant discourse (what bell hooks calls imperialist white supremacist capitalist patriarchy) infiltrates our very language. What part of the faculty of reasoning does the objectification of women arise out of? It must be a very dark place, manifesting in incidences like this thread.
I am not entirely sure what purpose this discussion even has, seeing as the basic premises that women are people and that sex has been taken into institutions of unequal power seems completely lost on some of the rape apologists here. Where does one even being to start a dialogue when these conditions haven't been met?
Its not apology to rape. Its a discussion about how the spell works. Its no different than convicing with a lie or diplomacy, Arlandor showed the faq that proves this one page ago. Its simple.
Now if you think that using a skill check to convince someone to sleep with you is rape, then thats up to you.
So it's rape because of Charm Person? Magical lies are rape, mundane lies are not? If it is rape either way (which it is) then why is Charm Person the culprit?How much difference is there between a saving throw (and possible subsequent charisma check) and a bluff check? If a character makes a bluff or diplomacy check to seduce someone, is that rape? Is it purely because it's magic and not skill that makes it rape?Let me take a different approach...
Uther Pendragon uses Merlin's spell to assume the likeness of Igraine's husband, seduces her, and beds her. Knowing Igraine would have never consented to Uther otherwise, are Uther's actions rape? Don't they carry more weight than just a magical lie?
Yes, that is clearly rape.
Again yes, but it would still be rape if he used a high bluff check instead of charm person, would it not?
Now assume that Uther isn't under a disguise self spell, but instead Igraine is charmed. Uther convinces Igraine he is her husband but "under a magical curse" to appear as Uther. He seduces her, she fails her save, and he beds her. Knowing Igraine would have never consented to Uther otherwise, are Uther's actions rape? Don't they carry more weight than just a magical lie?...but that is exactly the way using a Charm Person spell would work... so you have just admitted that it is rape to get a charmed person to sleep with someone.
Why is it, that I get the feeling that, while there are both male and female players saying that this use of a charm person spell would be rape, that there only male players saying that it would not be?
Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that it is not rape if it is mundane lies.
My thread imploded T.T
Im working on the premise here that you folk dont consider mudane lies = rape. But if thats how you think, I can understand your reasoning.
But to me, diplomacy/bluff doesnt equal rape.
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My thread imploded T.T
Not the first time this has happened if it makes you any happier. Charm Person is one of those things.
Im working on the premise here that you folk dont consider mudane lies = rape. But if thats how you think, I can understand your reasoning.
But to me, diplomacy/bluff doesnt equal rape.
Could you and the others stop hijacking my thread? This was supposed to be a healthy discussion...
I dont want my thread to get locked, but if this continues, this is probably what is going to happen. Please tone down folks!
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no what is disturbing is how you keep trying to change the subject from how a spell functions in a make believe game, to how we are somehow responsible for your issues from the real world. we are just ppl having an adult discussion, if its not your cup of tea leave us to it. thanks
Im working on the premise here that you folk dont consider mudane lies = rape. But if thats how you think, I can understand your reasoning.
But to me, diplomacy/bluff doesnt equal rape.
Could you and the others stop hijacking my thread? This was supposed to be a healthy discussion...
I dont want my thread to get locked, but if this continues, this is probably what is going to happen. Please tone down folks!
I fail to see how this could be considered "hijacking". Were discuting how the spell is supposed to work, with is entirely within the intent of thread. The details may be uncomfortable for some, but its necessary to understand the spell.
Just to make it clear, no one is making apologies to rape. Were just saying that the spell doesnt force you to do something you dont want to. Its simple.
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My thread imploded T.TNot the first time this has happened if it makes you any happier. Charm Person is one of those things.
Someone in that thread mentioned this item. I think we can all take a moment and say how messed up it is that Pathfinder includes a literal magic roofie as an item you can buy for only 150 gp.
My thread imploded T.TNot the first time this has happened if it makes you any happier. Charm Person is one of those things.
Ha! I was in that one too! Maybe I should just shut up.
*Puffs in*
I knew that this was going to be one of those threads...
*Rushingly puffs out*
Someone in that thread mentioned this item. I think we can all take a moment and say how messed up it is that Pathfinder includes a literal magic roofie as an item you can buy for only 150 gp.My thread imploded T.TNot the first time this has happened if it makes you any happier. Charm Person is one of those things.
By your definition of Charm Person...
By your definition of Charm Person...Someone in that thread mentioned this item. I think we can all take a moment and say how messed up it is that Pathfinder includes a literal magic roofie as an item you can buy for only 150 gp.My thread imploded T.TNot the first time this has happened if it makes you any happier. Charm Person is one of those things.
Exactly, we have proven many times already how charm person works, people just refuse to understand the facts.
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Ha! I was in that one too! Maybe I should just shut up.My thread imploded T.TNot the first time this has happened if it makes you any happier. Charm Person is one of those things.
Quick, we know where this is headed. You get the safehouse, I'll get the food, a third stranger will mug us for the both of them!
Or maybe it'll all turn out okay.
Ha! I was in that one too! Maybe I should just shut up.My thread imploded T.TNot the first time this has happened if it makes you any happier. Charm Person is one of those things.
Quick, we know where this is headed. You get the safehouse, I'll get the food, a third stranger will mug us for the both of them!
Or maybe it'll all turn out okay.
Really, there's literally a faq explaining how the spell works, why should this create such a lenghty discussion? And people still goes out of their way to call us rape apologists, when we are just trying to prove our point. What the hell is going on here?
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Ill have to disagree with this, depending on the situation of said NPC. If she was already okay with sleeping with her friends, then charm person isnt forcing anything on her. She sees you as a friend, and if shes okay with it then its not rape. Charm person isnt a compulsion spell, youre not taking away her free will to choose. If she does it, its consensual. Remember, charm person is a Charm spell, not compulsion one.She didn't consent to sleep with you. I'm not sure what's unclear about this. YOU DO NOT HAVE HER CONSENT.Im gonna chime in be the black sheep and say this is not rape for real.
If the barmaid sleeps with her friends, then its her problem. Charm person makes you look like her friend. If she gets convinced to sleep with you, its because she have no problems with doing so.
Its easy to put morals in front of facts, but it doesnt change the fact the she still have to be okay with sleeping with friends for the spell to do it. Its not rape, its consensual.
So what about when the spell wears off and she realizes that YOU ARE NOT HER FRIEND? Her will was compromised whether you will admit it or not.
Or do you think it is not rape if she doesn't scream or struggle?
Ill have to disagree with this, depending on the situation of said NPC. If she was already okay with sleeping with her friends, then charm person isnt forcing anything on her. She sees you as a friend, and if shes okay with it then its not rape. Charm person isnt a compulsion spell, youre not taking away her free will to choose. If she does it, its consensual. Remember, charm person is a Charm spell, not compulsion one.She didn't consent to sleep with you. I'm not sure what's unclear about this. YOU DO NOT HAVE HER CONSENT.Im gonna chime in be the black sheep and say this is not rape for real.
If the barmaid sleeps with her friends, then its her problem. Charm person makes you look like her friend. If she gets convinced to sleep with you, its because she have no problems with doing so.
Its easy to put morals in front of facts, but it doesnt change the fact the she still have to be okay with sleeping with friends for the spell to do it. Its not rape, its consensual.
So what about when the spell wears off and she realizes that YOU ARE NOT HER FRIEND? Her will was compromised whether you will admit it or not.
Or do you think it is not rape if she doesn't scream or struggle?
If you use bluff/disguise to pass as someone else and she notices later is rape?
Again, im acting on the premise that you dont consider skill checks to sleep with someone as rape. If you do, I can see your point, but I dont see diplomacy/bluff = rape.
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If you use bluff/disguise to pass as someone else and she notices later is rape?
JESUS!! YES!!
JESUS!! YES!!If you use bluff/disguise to pass as someone else and she notices later is rape?
Ill reiterate my point.
Diplomacy > friendly > ask to sleep with her > she accepts = rape.
If you see it that way, thats up to you.
But if you convince her and she agrees, its consensual.
If you use bluff/disguise to pass as someone else and she notices later is rape?
God what is wrong with you.
That is rape by deception.
If you consider lie = rape, then its up to you.
But she wasnt forced to anything. She had to agree for it to occur. Thats not rape in my book. Its consensual. A bad one for lying, but consensual.
Please tell me this is a sick trolling attempt.
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If you use bluff/disguise to pass as someone else and she notices later is rape?
God what is wrong with you.
That is rape by deception.
If you consider lie = rape, then its up to you.
But she wasnt forced to anything. She had to agree for it to occur. Thats not rape in my book.
Tough s~@%. It's rape.
INFORMED consent, dammit.
Bailing on this. This is NOT something we need s#+#ting up the forums on Christmas.
Just reiterating a point needed to understand the spell, mind you I dont favor rape, but I dont see the use of skill check to convince someone as this.
If you use bluff/disguise to pass as someone else and she notices later is rape?
God what is wrong with you.
That is rape by deception.
If you consider lie = rape, then its up to you.
But she wasnt forced to anything. She had to agree for it to occur. Thats not rape in my book.
Tough s~#*. It's rape.
INFORMED consent, dammit.
She had to agree in the first place! If she doesnt want to, if she doesnt sleep with friends or whatever, she can just refuse. Shes not under a dominate person effect.
Ill have to disagree with this, depending on the situation of said NPC. If she was already okay with sleeping with her friends, then charm person isnt forcing anything on her. She sees you as a friend, and if shes okay with it then its not rape. Charm person isnt a compulsion spell, youre not taking away her free will to choose. If she does it, its consensual. Remember, charm person is a Charm spell, not compulsion one.She didn't consent to sleep with you. I'm not sure what's unclear about this. YOU DO NOT HAVE HER CONSENT.Im gonna chime in be the black sheep and say this is not rape for real.
If the barmaid sleeps with her friends, then its her problem. Charm person makes you look like her friend. If she gets convinced to sleep with you, its because she have no problems with doing so.
Its easy to put morals in front of facts, but it doesnt change the fact the she still have to be okay with sleeping with friends for the spell to do it. Its not rape, its consensual.
So what about when the spell wears off and she realizes that YOU ARE NOT HER FRIEND? Her will was compromised whether you will admit it or not.
Or do you think it is not rape if she doesn't scream or struggle?
Ignoring Newly GM's comment,
What about when she realizes you don't drive a Ferrai?What about when she realizes you don't play for the Packers?
What about when she realizes your dad wasn't one of the Beach Boys?
Were they not rape until she found out?
Ill have to disagree with this, depending on the situation of said NPC. If she was already okay with sleeping with her friends, then charm person isnt forcing anything on her. She sees you as a friend, and if shes okay with it then its not rape. Charm person isnt a compulsion spell, youre not taking away her free will to choose. If she does it, its consensual. Remember, charm person is a Charm spell, not compulsion one.She didn't consent to sleep with you. I'm not sure what's unclear about this. YOU DO NOT HAVE HER CONSENT.Im gonna chime in be the black sheep and say this is not rape for real.
If the barmaid sleeps with her friends, then its her problem. Charm person makes you look like her friend. If she gets convinced to sleep with you, its because she have no problems with doing so.
Its easy to put morals in front of facts, but it doesnt change the fact the she still have to be okay with sleeping with friends for the spell to do it. Its not rape, its consensual.
So what about when the spell wears off and she realizes that YOU ARE NOT HER FRIEND? Her will was compromised whether you will admit it or not.
Or do you think it is not rape if she doesn't scream or struggle?
Ignoring Newly GM's comment,
What about when she realizes you don't drive a Ferrai?
What about when she realizes you don't play for the Packers?
What about when she realizes your dad wasn't one of the Beach Boys?
Were they not rape until she found out?
This ^. I just used a bad example, but he nailed it down well.
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Normally I try to leave the moderation of threads where I'm actually involved in the discussion to my colleagues, other than very black-and-white rules violations such as profanity or blatant off-topic-ness, since it seems like a conflict of interest.
However, given that no one's in the office right now, that this thread's already devolved into profanity and so on, that it seems to have outlived its usefulness, and that I'm not interested in spending my holiday vacation trying to ride herd on a potential flamewar, I'm locking it. If anyone's in the office on Monday, they can unlock if they feel there's any merit to be had in letting the conversation continue.
If you use bluff/disguise to pass as someone else and she notices later is rape?
God what is wrong with you.
That is rape by deception.
If you consider lie = rape, then its up to you.
But she wasnt forced to anything. She had to agree for it to occur. Thats not rape in my book.
Tough s!$%. It's rape.
INFORMED consent, dammit.
Informed, valid consent. That means she, while sound of mind, uninfluenced by any external factors, whether that be chemical or magical or an abuse of a position of authority or a freaking disguise you put on, decides to sleep with YOU, because SHE WANTS TO.