I have a question about the following line in Black Tentacles, as it got brought up in gameplay:
The black tentacles spell receives a +5 bonus on grapple checks made against opponents it is already grappling, but cannot move foes or pin foes. Each round that black tentacles succeeds on a grapple check, it deals an additional 1d6+4 points of damage. The CMD of black tentacles, for the purposes of escaping the grapple, is equal to 10 + its CMB.
The player in question cast black tentacles with a CMD of 22. The next round the creature did not attempt to escape and so the tentacles received their +5 bonus as normal.
However, the next round the creature attempted to escape, and my player informed me he believed the tentacles CMD to be 27. I informed him that an escaping character is the one making the check, therefor the +5 bonus shouldn't apply. He countered with the fact the tentacles where receiving a +5 bonus to CMB so the 10+CMB should reflect that.
Having played a grappler myself to level 18, I do not think the +5 bonus should apply to CMD on this spell, but I hesitate to come down hard on this. The player in questions CMD for this spell isn't super-high (he's a bard) so I am willing to let it slide.
That being said I'd like to hear what other people think.
I agree that the +5 should not apply.
If you want to get lawyery about it, point out that the +5 applies to Grapple checks, not to CMB in general, while the CMD is specifically designated as 10+CMB, not 10+Grapple CMB or anything else.
The +5 the spell mentions is listed in the general grapple rules, and I doubt it's intended to apply to CMD.
I agree that the +5 should not apply.
If you want to get lawyery about it, point out that the +5 applies to Grapple checks, not to CMB in general, while the CMD is specifically designated as 10+CMB, not 10+Grapple CMB or anything else.
That's a pretty good point, and an issue I had to overcome on my fighter a lot (it's really hard to increase your CMD).
I think his copy of the core book might be first print and might have:
spell receives a +5 bonus on cmb checks; written in there, which might be throwing him. That's going off memory though.
When determining the tentacles' CMB, the tentacles use your caster level as their base attack bonus and receive a +4 bonus due to their Strength and a +1 size bonus.
The black tentacles spell receives a +5 bonus on grapple checks made against opponents it is already grappling, but cannot move foes or pin foes. Each round that black tentacles succeeds on a grapple check, it deals an additional 1d6+4 points of damage. The CMD of black tentacles, for the purposes of escaping the grapple, is equal to 10 + its CMB.
I read it as the tentacles get a +5 to grapple checks (to maintain their grapple) but I don't believe the +5 is added to it's CMD.
Agreeing with the general consensus: The CMD does not include the +5 bonus because that only applies when the tentacles actually attempt to grapple something.
That's how I interpret the spell as well: the +5 bonus only applies when the spell is making the grapple check.
The attempt to break the grapple is not specified as a grapple check itself in the grapple combat maneuver description:
Of you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). [/quote[
That said, the fact that the roll allows you to reverse the grapple might imply that it's a grapple check. But the ability still seems like it would only apply the bonus to the CMB of the actual checks made by the tentacles to maintain the grapple.
You should read the rules carefully on grapple. Page 200 of the core rulebook makes it mostly clear. It says, "If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds."
As you can see, there is nothing "unique" about black tentacles and the +5 bonus, because everything that enters grapple gets a +5 bonus if the target doesn't break the grapple. Furthermore, the +5 bonus only applies "against" the same target, which I read as the bonus only applies when you are doing something to the target, not when the target is doing something to you (such as escaping), although your opinion could certainly vary.
Another way of looking at it would be to consider the "grab" rule for monsters. That ability gives +4 to the CMB to initiate the grapple, but doesn't do anything for the CMD.
Finally, when looking at the rule about what to do when you are grappled (see page 200-201), it just mentions going against the CMD, not CMD plus any grapple benefit of the +5 circumstance bonus. Since every grapple that goes beyond 1 round results in a +5 circumstance bonus, this probably would have been mentioned when attempting to escape.
Essentially, if you were to apply the +5 bonus to CMD as well for black tentacles, then you would have to apply it to every grapple situation since the +5 bonus applies to all grapple situations, not just to black tentacles.
The +5 Bonus is essentially a "If you're a good grappler, you shouldn't have much trouble holding onto your target when they haven't managed to escape." It doesn't apply to CMD because that includes many other bonuses (typically higher than 10+CMB+5 would be).
Black Tentacles is an exception, b/c it has no Dex, Deflection, Dodge, Insight, or other bonuses to increase it's CMD, but that is how it works. Black Tentacles is good at grabbing and squeezing people, but not so good at holding on if they actually try to escape.
