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Greetings,
I am GM'ing a long term campaign for the first time in pathfinder and I'm running into so issues that didn't come up as much back in my 3.5 days.
Item creation: The party wizard seems to basically grant a large discount to all the player's magic items due to the spellcraft check being so low for item creation and the penalty for missing a requirement only being a +5 DC. That seems to really take the steam out of any non-gold reward in the campaign and makes the party able to handle encounters pretty far above their level. Is this normal for pathfinder or are we likely doing something wrong?
Party Balance: We are playing through Kingmaker and the party is easily handling the encounters. I initially thought that this would not be the case so I allowed a 25 point buy for characters, but I don't feel that should make that much of a difference. Basically challenges of 2 CR above their use about 20% of the daily fighting ability. Is this usually the case with adventure paths; are they usually easy?
Also, what are some good ways keep characters involved that are not prime damage dealers/wizards. Most combats last 2 rounds and all the glory goes to the barbarian and wizard. I'd like to find more encounters that can keep the secondary combats busy to draw them into the action. Any ideas? I've got more novice players this round, so it hasn't been as much of an issue in the past.
Downtime: What in pathfinder prevent crafting wizards from embarking on a life of luxury and riches by just grinding out and selling magic items? I could, and kind of have, suggested use of the ultimate campaign book, but if the wizard does want to just crank out +2 arms and armor and sell them, does anything stop him in the core rules (He has also taken a high diplomacy to aid in being a merchant)?
Thanks in advance!
Lets go down the list:
Magic Item Crafting: You've mentioned Kingmaker, which is arguably the single most suited AP for crafting, due to long downtimes that just do not exist in the other paths. Its actually quite possible "in game" for every other AP to happen while Kingmaker is happening. This alone is a major advantage to item crafters, who often are just too pressed for time to really make use of it.
That said, keep these things in mind.
Is this a guarantee? Yes. Is this bad? No. In 3.5, magic item crafting was actually MORE guaranteed, and was only restricted by how much XP was spent (which was a troublesome system due to the level disparity it would eventually create, something noticed by the designers at the time due to the release of several feats/abilities/errata that allowed other party members to shoulder the burden).
In PF, magic items cost time and gold. PCs come across gold by design, but time is usually an issue, far less so in Kingmaker. Now, if PCs try to make something BEYOND their capabilities, things could get interesting. Lets look at making a +3 weapon (9000k to create) at say level 6 when you may have accumulated that much (and taken the feat at level 5). +3 weapon is both CL 9, but having CL 9 is also a requirement for weapon enhancement. So DC 19. 18 days to craft. Could do it in 9 days, but DC 24. 24 is out of the range of all but a dedicated item crafter at 6th level. (skill focus: spellcraft or such). And even 9 days is a fair amount of time. Players may know that nothing it going to happen in 9 days, but do the PCs?
Party Balance: 25 is crazy strong. The baseline game, and all the APs, assume a 15 point buy. You may not have noticed if this is your first foray into PF, but the point buy arrays are actually built differently. The 25 "heroic" array from 3.5 is now a 20 points, and is still technically higher, because PF starts the point buy from baseline 10 rather than 8.
Involving other party members: Your high point buy may be a large cause of this. Fighters and Wizards with jacked up primary stats are just going to dominate at lower levels compared to other classes. Without knowing what the other classes are, I can't give much advice beyond offer some skill challenges, but the wizard may have enough skill points to steal that show as well. Even stealth/scouting/stealing becomes inconsequential if the wizard can just color spray 3/4 of the enemies and the fighter power attack/cleave everything left.
Downtime: What stops merchant wizards? The rules, basically. Selling items occurs at half market price. Crafting items occurs at half market price. The wizard crafts and sells it for the same, netting him no profit besides something to occupy his time for a few days. Unless you are using the haggling rules from Ultimate Campaign, there are no ways within the core material to "mark up" a sale as an adventurer. With those rules, yes, some profit can be made, but again, time must be spent and the relative profit is not that high. Keep in mind a community has a hard limit on how much gold is floating around for merchants to buy things off of adventurers with. Selling a +2 sword in a village will net you 2500gp, not 4150+half of base weapon+haggling percentage, because that is the total amount of GP that town has to scrounge together to buy such an item. There is no listed time for how fast such funds "recharge" either, although most would go with the same week that is listed for other buying/selling effects in settlements.
In summary, while I agree that item crafting can be powerful, I personally think it is the 25 point buy that is responsible for the majority of your problems. Unfortunately, short of a very very very understanding group of players and a retcon rebuild, that is going to be the hardest to correct. I would suggest adding 50% in number to enemies. Action economy drives the game, so making one monster 2 CRs stronger will not have nearly the challenge of adding a second monster of the same CR. Minions help spellcasters do their thing before fighers cut their heads off, and can soak up wizard antics as well, giving the others time and room to do things.
Hope this helps, and I hope you don't take my tone as condescending; we all make mistakes, and even after multiple years I'm still finding rules I took for granted were the same in PF from 3.5, or had misunderstood from the beginning. Fighting defensively as a standard action was recently discovered; we had always thought it was full round, and nobody bothered to double-check for over 5 years, because we thought we knew.
So, keep
Greetings,
I am GM'ing a long term campaign for the first time in pathfinder and I'm running into so issues that didn't come up as much back in my 3.5 days.
Item creation: The party wizard seems to basically grant a large discount to all the player's magic items due to the spellcraft check being so low for item creation and the penalty for missing a requirement only being a +5 DC. That seems to really take the steam out of any non-gold reward in the campaign and makes the party able to handle encounters pretty far above their level. Is this normal for pathfinder or are we likely doing something wrong?
Its really a function of kingmaker, other campaigns dont really have the time built into them to allow this. I personally wouldnt allow such crafting in a kingmaker game because of this problem.
Party Balance: We are playing through Kingmaker and the party is easily handling the encounters. I initially thought that this would not be the case so I allowed a 25 point buy for characters, but I don't feel that should make that much of a difference. Basically challenges of 2 CR above their use about 20% of the daily fighting ability. Is this usually the case with adventure paths; are they usually easy?
The adventure paths assume a 15 point buy, and it does make a big difference, basically you go from having primary stats starting at 18-20, to having them 14-17. That +2 might not seem like alot but it keeps the party ahead of the curve through the whole adventure. My group optimizes pretty heavily, but I have found since I instituted a system that lowers initial ability scores (I do a 25 point buy but cap starting bonuses at 17 after racial mods, and dont allow bellow a 10 before racial mods) that normal challenges are once again a challenge to my players. It was actually pretty surprising how much of a difference it makes.
Also, what are some good ways keep characters involved that are not prime damage dealers/wizards. Most combats last 2 rounds and all the glory goes to the barbarian and wizard. I'd like to find more encounters that can keep the secondary combats busy to draw them into the action. Any ideas? I've got more novice players this round, so it hasn't been as much of an issue in the past.
Never have a single enemy encounter. Ever. Always have at least 2 enemies preferably 4. This way even if the barbarian is taking out one guy in a turn, the other characters will have an opportunity to get involved in the action. Aside from that we would need to know some specfics on what the other characters are to keep them involved.
Downtime: What in pathfinder prevent crafting wizards from embarking on a life of luxury and riches by just grinding out and selling magic items? I could, and kind of have, suggested use of the ultimate campaign book, but if the wizard does want to just crank out +2 arms and armor and sell them, does anything stop him in the core rules (He has also taken a high diplomacy to aid in being a merchant)?
Yes, as a person without a business, you sell items at half price (the cost to make them) by the rules. And if you want to have a magic item business, you have to use the downtime rules. Also remember as the dm, you can simply say no one is interested in buying your +2 arms and armor. Thats part of why the downtime rules dont have the kind of profits he would make from just cranking out magic items. There has to be a market for such things, and it wont always be an easy sell.
Right, what the bard sez. Basically, a PC makes money from adventuring or from making “Profession” checks (and this is only supposed to be pocket change to keep from starving between adventures) . If you need to explain this with some reality, it’s because yes, the Wizard can make a $2000 item for $1000 but without a Profession check doesn’t have the business sense to market it properly so as to actually make $1000. I have actually known some very skilled artisans who can’t make a living doing what they do so very well as a craft as they have no business sense.
Add some extra low level encounters and more mooks to each combat. These would not give more eps, as already the party’s CR is high due to high point buy and extra WBL. Combats should take at least 4 rounds and each ‘cost’ ¼ resources. Thus, if you notice the wizard novaing ¾ of his spells in one encounter, you need to throw 3 more at him and the party so he can’t nova on a regular basis. Sure, you’re running a AP, but nothing sez you can’t toss a few random low level Mook encounters (no significant loot, of course) just to keep things balanced.
Next, explain to them the WBL guidelines. If they make funds by crafting, you have to reduce loot found to make up for it. Would they rather place merchants or adventurers?
1. Item Creation: If all character wealth gained is sold for gp and then used by the magic-item-creation PCs then this should, effectively double the PC wealth by level (as crafting costs half as much market value). so where an 8th level PC normally should have 33,000 gp, with solely item-creation application it means they'd have around 66,000 gp worth of magical items (just better than starting 10th level characters) but this will take them 33 days on average (1 day per 1,000 gp value, round up). And of course the complexity of when the feats can be taken and if the other requirements can be met are not taken into consideration in the above.
So there's two key options here. 1. Keep the PCs on their toes. "Well, on day 3 of the 8-day magic item creation you're working on the demon-gnolls invade the nearby village...you going to put that on hold or is the party going to do something?" 2. Note that NPC wealth averages about 27% of NPC wealth for the same heroic level. It's much higher at lower levels (78% at 2nd level, 55% at 3rd, 40% at 4th, 33% at 5th, 29% at 6th, 26% at 7th, 24% at 8th, 22% at 9th, 21% at 10th, 20% at 11th, 19% at 12th through 16th, and 18% from 17th to 20th. I make it simple and just shoot for heroic-classed NPCs having 25% the wealth as a PC of the same level. But if the PCs are doubling their own wealth through magic item creation then I'd shoot for a +50% (or about a total of ~40%) NPC wealth. So if the PCs are doing it often then assume the NPCs are also. That way the 9th level heroic-classed NPC with normally 10,050 gp in equipment would have about 15,075 gp (+50% to base).
Party Balance: I second what tkul says. Additionally, add in "minions." Low level peons to harry the less involved PCs. If these peons are each less than 1/2 the main encounter's CR then they'll not do much to overthrow overall balance but will be a cause of concern and annoyance. If APL is 10 and the encounter is normally two CR 8's (For an encounter CR of 10), then adding 8 CR 2's (making them a CR 8 in and of themselves, bringing the total encounter CR up to CR 11) will at the very least give the PCs pause until they notice how easily the CR 2's go down (but if they don't deal with them they may still interrupt the spellcasters, get in the way of the melee PCs so the bigger baddies can regroup, recover, etc.).
Downtime: Nothing stops the character's in the rules from just becoming merchants (magical or otherwise). It's the necessities of the campaign that do so and the call to adventure. Making a dynamic plan for the bad guys is key here, something like "If no one does anything the bad guy will do X on day 1, Y on day 3, Z on day 7, etc. And gain appropriate XP/levels as well as its minions and so on." So if the players spend a month making items, then the bad guy has a chance of gaining levels and more minions to do his/her bidding. You can make it dangerous for the players to not take action...but just don't overly penalize them as they should be able to make some magic items as they've spent the feats to do so rather than feats to make them more, immediately, combat effective.
I agree the 25 point buy is scewing a lot of things. My kingmaker campaign also used a 25 point buy. Magic items are a given in kingmaker, so much so that its not unheard of for players to basically get unlimited items through crafting during the app. With aps being based around 15 point buy that's the base points for creatures in the beastiary. Basically if you want it to be somewhat challenging your going to need to rebuild every monster stat with a 25 point buy with NO change to CR. More monsters just won't cut it outright-trust me. I found even adding the advanced template and class levels to all enemies pcs were still able to plow through encounters +3 and even +5! If you start rebuilding monster with a 25 point buy with no cr increase it then allows you to still add advanced template and class levels to even the turf. Its a lot of work but that method should put encounters back on par. You don't have to do it for every creature but a few built up random monsters stats can be reused and leutenants and bbeg should use this method.
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Ah, Thanks.
I didn't realize the point buy had changed so much in pathfinder...
The group has cleric and a ranger, and occasionally a rogue, but I hear the solution is more enemies in encounters, group 'once a day' encounters together, up the heat a little over all. I was a little hesitant to due so with the adventure path simply to keep the party level right but I might just give out levels when appropriate rather than track experience.
I was a little hesitant to due so with the adventure path simply to keep the party level right but I might just give out levels when appropriate rather than track experience.
That's what we do. It works. besides with their extra wealth and extra point buy, their CR is higher so they wouldn't get the same eps anyway. They are effectively two levels higher.
[in the first spoiler]...
Could do it in 9 days, but DC 24. 24 is out of the range of all but a dedicated item crafter at 6th level. (skill focus: spellcraft or such)....
Per this thread, an average 5th level NPC Wizard can reliably hit DC 35.
A Wizard NPC uses the heroic array so he has a high stat of 15. Add the Human +2 Bonus, and the 4th level stat point on top of this, and you can get 18 for a normal NPC. Lets see the skill build:
* Int Mod: 4
* Skill Ranks: 5
* Class Skill: 3
* Skill Focus(Spellcraft): 3
* Masterwork Tools: 2
* Apprentices' Aid Another: 2
* Armillary Amulet (2500gp): 5
* Headband +2 (4000): 1
Add this up: 4+5+3+3+2+2+5+1 = 25. Using Take 10, lets him hit a DC of 35.
The Wizard's Apprentice has:
* Int Mod: 2
* Skill Ranks: 1
* Class Skill: 3
* Skill Focus(Spellcraft): 3
Total is 9, with any roll he gets 10+ and automatically gives aid.
If an average NPC can't be outdone by a PC, you haven't done your PC right. :-) Remember, your familiar has the same ranks as you, and use aid another Spellcraft to assist.
Crafting DC was never supposed to be the limit to crafting, but rather GP was.
/cevah
[in the first spoiler]...
Could do it in 9 days, but DC 24. 24 is out of the range of all but a dedicated item crafter at 6th level. (skill focus: spellcraft or such)....Per this thread, an average 5th level NPC Wizard can reliably hit DC 35.
** spoiler omitted **If an average NPC can't be outdone by a PC, you haven't done your PC right. :-) Remember, your familiar has the same ranks as you, and use aid another Spellcraft to assist.
Crafting DC was never supposed to be the limit to crafting, but rather GP was.
But that's exactly what The Black bard said "a dedicated item crafter".
Not 'average' at all, but dedicated to crafting. And, that's not one NPC, that's TWO NPCs.
[in the first spoiler]...
Could do it in 9 days, but DC 24. 24 is out of the range of all but a dedicated item crafter at 6th level. (skill focus: spellcraft or such)....Per this thread, an average 5th level NPC Wizard can reliably hit DC 35.
** spoiler omitted **If an average NPC can't be outdone by a PC, you haven't done your PC right. :-) Remember, your familiar has the same ranks as you, and use aid another Spellcraft to assist.
Crafting DC was never supposed to be the limit to crafting, but rather GP was.
But that's exactly what The Black bard said "a dedicated item crafter".
Not 'average' at all, but dedicated to crafting. And, that's not one NPC, that's TWO NPCs.
The second NPC could be the NPC's familiar, or a follower rather than the cohort. The second NPC only contributes 2 of the 35. The Black Bard was referring to a 6th level PC. That means a much higher Int score, easily getting back that +2. Not dedicating a feat to the skill drops 3 also. You still have enough for the 24 DC by a lot. If you check out the thread linked above, you can see ways to improve this even more. This NPC is a dedicated crafter of a lower level that The Black Bard's PC. That PC will have better stats, equipment, feats, and traits. More than enough to equal the NPC.
The NPC is average for a magic crafting wizard. I took the stats from the NPC rules. I used 3.5's PHB2 for the equipment and feat selection, since PF did not define a crafting NPC but 3.5 did. This NPC has several available feats, which allows much variety. Likewise, it could be a witch as easily as a wizard, and any caster with a decent Int score as well. It is not overly optimized, as there are ways to get at least another +5 by using feats and other items that I saw without changing WBL or stat array. Given the 25 point buy, the OP's wizard will have a huge Int, making crafting very easy.
My point was The Black Bard's idea of a 24 DC being high for a 6th level caster was wrong. My cohort hits 23 and only has a +2 Comp item rather than a +5, and does not have a stat booster, equipment, or dedicated feat.
/cevah
Cevah is quite right, DC 24 isn't impossible to hit at all. Likewise, DrDeth is right in that I was referring to an "average" character having issues with DC 24. In that, I meant a rounded 15 point buy PC who hasn't upped spellcraft outside of max ranks. So 6 ranks, 3 class skill, 4 int bonus, total of +12.
When I use the term average, I don't assume any previous variable results like successfully finding/buying a +2 stat booster. Yes, he could have one by now, putting him at +14. Its very reasonable. Yes, he could spike his int higher than base 16, but other stats are dropping, and I consider part of being "average" is not having wildly high or low stats.
Adding in a second item, a feat or two, a skilled assistant, mw tools (which I personally do not see spellcraft reasonably having, as per the exception clause in the masterwork tools entry, but others can certainly choose to allow it) are all things taking this "average" character away from average and towards "dedicated".
But yes, I agree that GP and, as a secondary, time are the built in limiters to abuse of magic item crafting, before GM step in is required. Kingmaker is simply very fertile grounds for an abundance of both of those.
I still think the point buy is the biggest problem though.