Casting Control Water on mud or on Create Water

[Tendentious]

So here is Control Water:
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CONTROL WATER
School transmutation [water]; Level cleric 4, druid 4, sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a pinch of dust for lower water or a drop of water for raise water)
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area water in a volume of 10 ft./level by 10 ft./level by 2 ft./level (S)
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; see text; Spell Resistance no
This spell has two different applications, both of which control water in different ways. The first version of this spell causes water in the area to swiftly evaporate or to sink into the ground below, lowering the water's depth. The second version causes the water to surge and rise, increasing its overall depth and possibly flooding nearby areas.

Lower Water: This causes water or similar liquid to reduce its depth by as much as 2 feet per caster level (to a minimum depth of 1 inch). The water is lowered within a squarish depression whose sides are up to caster level × 10 feet long. In extremely large and deep bodies of water, such as a deep ocean, the spell creates a whirlpool that sweeps ships and similar craft downward, putting them at risk and rendering them unable to leave by normal movement for the duration of the spell. When cast on water elementals and other water-based creatures, this spell acts as a slow spell (Will negates). The spell has no effect on other creatures.

Raise Water: This causes water or similar liquid to rise in height, just as the lower water version causes it to lower. Boats raised in this way slide down the sides of the hump that the spell creates. If the area affected by the spell includes riverbanks, a beach, or other land nearby, the water can spill over onto dry land.

With either version of this spell, you may reduce one horizontal dimension by half and double the other horizontal dimension to change the overall area of effect.
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What would be the effect of casting Control Water on 10-foot deep mud? The spell description states the effect of the spell on water, but doesn't say much about the initial required state or condition of the water. Does it include mud? Ground water? The description does include the ambiguous phrase "water or similar liquid". What constitutes a "similar liquid"? Similar consistency, perhaps?

Suppose you cast Control Water on a room that's 10 feet deep in mud. A 7th-level caster can lower the water by 14 feet. If the mud is 10 feet deep, then you'd drive the water out, leaving (perhaps) 5 feet of silt behind. Alternately, if you raised the water by 14 feet, would you end up with 19 feet of muddy water (if you assume 5 feet of water plus 14 feet more, diluted by 5 feet of silt)?

Of course, if ground water is a legitimate target for the spell, then a caster would be able to create a massive flood on any open ground. A 7th-level caster would be able to raise a mass of water 70' by 70' by 14' (about half a million gallons) from any patch of moist earth - which is pretty much anywhere that isn't a desert.

As stated, their doesn't seem to be a minimum amount of water required to cast upon. Using Create Water, could you create a thin film of water across a stone floor, then use Control Water to add, in the case of our 7th-level caster, another 14 feet of depth?

My own inclination is that it's reasonable to use Control Water on mud - to convert it either to silt by lowering the water or to muddy water by raising the water. It's the sort of situation where inventive use of a spell outside of its normal application could reward a clever caster. I'd probably draw the line at raising ground water, or a film of Created Water.

Thanks for any input or suggestions.

[Ipslore the Red]

About the raising thing, it doesn't create new water, just like lowering doesn't actually destroy water. It's transmutation, not conjuration, so it's just moving existing water around. You probably could raise a thin film of water 14 feet, but it'd collapse immediately upon the end of the spell.

And the silt thing isn't exactly outside the normal application of Control Water. That's more or less exactly what it's for.

[blahpers]

I wouldn't consider mud "water or similar liquid", so it would not be a valid target. Another GM might allow raising or lowering the water table.

[Tendentious]

Ipslore the Red wrote:

About the raising thing, it doesn't create new water, just like lowering doesn't actually destroy water. It's transmutation, not conjuration, so it's just moving existing water around. You probably could raise a thin film of water 14 feet, but it'd collapse immediately upon the end of the spell.

And the silt thing isn't exactly outside the normal application of Control Water. That's more or less exactly what it's for.

Good point about transmutation vs conjuration, which I hadn't considered. That basically answers my questions regarding casting Control water on Create Water (as you've outlined) or on ground water: if the DM allowed you to use Control Water in that way you could raise or lower the ground water available in the area of effect, which typically wouldn't be much - you'd end up with a few puddles on the surface.

[Tendentious]

blahpers wrote:

I wouldn't consider mud "water or similar liquid", so it would not be a valid target. Another GM might allow raising or lowering the water table.

I suppose the way I see it, the area is described as "water in a volume of blah blah blah". It doesn't say that the area of the spell can't contain other things (in the case of mud, it contains silt), but that the spell only affects the water in the area. In effect, you're not casting the spell on the mud; you're casting it on the water (which is mixed up with silt), which is why the spell drives away the water and leaves the silt behind.

[Ravingdork]

Though I agree that control water doesn't actually create water (as it is not a creation effect), I do believe that it does expand or reduce it in the same way enlarge person or reduce person can expand and reduce mass (in effect, having the same consequences as if it were actually creating or destroying water). I don't know why people liken it to mage hand or telekinesis (which only moves things around) rather than spells that actually increase or reduce something. If it worked as many of you seem to indicate, then it couldn't possibly raise or lower water without changing the surface area it covered.

I also think we should take it's level into account here. It is, after all, alongside spells that let you bind powerful outsiders, crush multiple magical enchantments, see the truth in all things, or disguise a small army--and is in fact is considered more powerful than spells that let you travel hundreds of miles, posses other peoples' bodies or dominate their minds, or even change your enemies into newts.

The way some of you interpret it, it would be weak even for a 2nd-level spell.

In short, I disagree with what has been said, and truly believe you could cast this on a cup of water (or thin film of water) and cause it to flood a dungeon room.

To answer the OP, you could cast it on mud, but the actual effects of doing so would be up to the GM. You couldn't cast it on ground water because it generally has total cover relative to you. You also couldn't cast it on water in the air because you can't normally see it or feel it in order to target it. You can't cast it on the material component, because that is destroyed in the process of casting.

[blahpers]

Tendentious wrote:

blahpers wrote:

I wouldn't consider mud "water or similar liquid", so it would not be a valid target. Another GM might allow raising or lowering the water table.

I suppose the way I see it, the area is described as "water in a volume of blah blah blah". It doesn't say that the area of the spell can't contain other things (in the case of mud, it contains silt), but that the spell only affects the water in the area. In effect, you're not casting the spell on the mud; you're casting it on the water (which is mixed up with silt), which is why the spell drives away the water and leaves the silt behind.

That's fine. I get wary of allowing mixtures to count for things like this because inevitably someone wants to lower the water of, e.g., a human. This spell specifically excludes creatures, but there are plenty of other spells than can (and have been) abused by this sort of thing.