One of the players in my group thinks that he can use the effects of The Warleader's Rage feat to grant himself Sympathetic Rage while he is 30 feet away from a raging ally, the GM however does not agree. As the nuetral party I figured I'd bring the question here for clarification.
Example just to make the question clear:
Barbarian A has Warleader's Rage and Sympathetic Rage
Barbarian B is raging
Can Barbarian A activate his Sympathetic Rage feat even if he is standing up to 30 feet away from Barbarian B due to the effects of Warleader's Rage?
The main basis of the players argument is that according to the rules, you are your own ally unless specifically stated otherwise, which allows Sympathetic Rage to count as an ability that "allows an ally to rage" even when being applied to yourself.
Warleader's Rage
Your rages are so inspiring to your allies that they don't have to remain adjacent to you to stay raging
Prerequisite: Cha 13, half-orc or orc, non-lawful
Benefit: Feats and abilities that allow an ally to rage or enhance a rage if adjacent to you (such as Amplified Rage and Sympathetic Rage) persist as long as your ally is within 30 feet of you and can see you. The conditions to activate the rage effect remain unchanged. For example, an ally with Sympathetic Rage must be adjacent to you to enter his own rage, but once his rage begins, he can continue raging as long as he can see you and you are within 30 feet.
Sympathetic Rage (Combat)
Seeing an ally enter a rage causes you to enter a rage-like state.
Prerequisites: Half-orc or orc, non-lawful.
Benefit: Whenever you are adjacent to an ally who is raging, you may choose to enter a similar but less powerful rage as a free action on your turn. This weaker rage gives you all the benefits and penalties of a rage, except your morale bonus to Strength and Constitution is only +2. There is no limit to how long you can rage, as long as you remain adjacent to a raging ally (for example, you could take a 5-foot step away from one raging ally toward another raging ally and maintain your rage). As with a barbarian’s rage, when this weaker rage ends, you are fatigued.
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Warleader's Rage
Your rages are so inspiring to your allies that they don't have to remain adjacent to you to stay raging
Prerequisite: Cha 13, half-orc or orc, non-lawful
Benefit: Feats and abilities that allow an ally to rage or enhance a rage if adjacent to you (such as Amplified Rage and Sympathetic Rage) persist as long as your ally is within 30 feet of you and can see you. The conditions to activate the rage effect remain unchanged. For example, an ally with Sympathetic Rage must be adjacent to you to enter his own rage, but once his rage begins, he can continue raging as long as he can see you and you are within 30 feet.
Sympathetic Rage (Combat)
Seeing an ally enter a rage causes you to enter a rage-like state.
Prerequisites: Half-orc or orc, non-lawful.
Benefit: Whenever you are adjacent to an ally who is raging, you may choose to enter a similar but less powerful rage as a free action on your turn. This weaker rage gives you all the benefits and penalties of a rage, except your morale bonus to Strength and Constitution is only +2. There is no limit to how long you can rage, as long as you remain adjacent to a raging ally (for example, you could take a 5-foot step away from one raging ally toward another raging ally and maintain your rage). As with a barbarian’s rage, when this weaker rage ends, you are fatigued.
even if i agreed with Barb A he's not adjacent to himself is he? also why would he want to do this? he wants to count as his own ally, fine, but sympathetic rage gives you a weaker morale bonus then his reaguler rage which has to be active for him to use it. morale bonuses don't stack so why?
With Sympathetic Rage he can still get half the bonus with no penalty and he doesn't have to expend rage rounds. And i guess the question is not if he can start it at 30 feet, because as you pointed out you still can't even with Warleader's Rage. The real question is, can he start the Sympathetic rage while adjacent to a raging ally, and then move away.
So new example:
Barbarian A and Barbarian B are adjacent at the beginning of an encounter, Barbarian B rages, allowing Barbarian A to activate Sympathetic Rage, then moves away from Barbarian A to attack an enemy, but stays within 30. Is Barbarian A still under the effects of Sympathetic Rage?
With Sympathetic Rage he can still get half the bonus with no penalty and he doesn't have to expend rage rounds.
Sympathetic Rage (Combat)
Seeing an ally enter a rage causes you to enter a rage-like state.Prerequisites: Half-orc or orc, non-lawful.
Benefit: Whenever you are adjacent to an ally who is raging, you may choose to enter a similar but less powerful rage as a free action on your turn. This weaker rage gives you all the benefits and penalties of a rage, except your morale bonus to Strength and Constitution is only +2. There is no limit to how long you can rage, as long as you remain adjacent to a raging ally (for example, you could take a 5-foot step away from one raging ally toward another raging ally and maintain your rage). As with a barbarian’s rage, when this weaker rage ends, you are fatigued.
he still gets penalties
So new example:
Barbarian A and Barbarian B are adjacent at the beginning of an encounter, Barbarian B rages, allowing Barbarian A to activate Sympathetic Rage, then moves away from Barbarian A to attack an enemy, but stays within 30. Is Barbarian A still under the effects of Sympathetic Rage?
Barbarian A needs to be next to Raging Barbarian B to enter the rage. Its a free action to enter. You cant do free actions on other peoples turn. If on barbarian A's turn, he is next to someone raging, then he can enter rage using Sympathetic rage. Looks like He can keep raging as long as he is within 30 ft of Barbarian B if he has the warleader's rage.
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Remember the most important disclaimer to the "count as your own ally" clause:
Ally: Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."
—Sean K Reynolds, 10/12/10
Barbarian A needs to be next to Raging Barbarian B to enter the rage. Its a free action to enter. You cant do free actions on other peoples turn. If on barbarian A's turn, he is next to someone raging, then he can enter rage using Sympathetic rage. Looks like He can keep raging as long as he is within 30 ft of Barbarian B if he has the warleader's rage.So new example:
Barbarian A and Barbarian B are adjacent at the beginning of an encounter, Barbarian B rages, allowing Barbarian A to activate Sympathetic Rage, then moves away from Barbarian A to attack an enemy, but stays within 30. Is Barbarian A still under the effects of Sympathetic Rage?
Warleader's Rage
Your rages are so inspiring to your allies that they don't have to remain adjacent to you to stay ragingPrerequisite: Cha 13, half-orc or orc, non-lawful
Benefit: Feats and abilities that allow an ally to rage or enhance a rage if adjacent to you (such as Amplified Rage and Sympathetic Rage) persist as long as your ally is within 30 feet of you and can see you. The conditions to activate the rage effect remain unchanged. For example, an ally with Sympathetic Rage must be adjacent to you to enter his own rage, but once his rage begins, he can continue raging as long as he can see you and you are within 30 feet.
I could see this working if Barbarian B had warleader's rage instead of Barbarian A but I was wondering if you could explain how barbarian A could move within 30ft and still continue raging in his example. I would think he would become fatigued as soon as barbarian B was no longer adjacent to him. Thanks
That was the question of the thread Ishian, read the above posts and your answer should be there. The answer I took to my group was that Barbarian A has to be adjacent to Barbarian B to activate Sympathetic Rage, but he may then move away and continue "Raging" as long as he remains within 30 ft, due to the fact that he can most likely consider himself his own ally for the effects of Warleader's Rage. You are correct that it would also work if Barbarian B had Warleader's Rage, but in this scenario he did not.
And here I was checking out the the new thread posts. "Hey wait that's me, I haven't created my own thread in a while. I wonder what this could be."
That was the question of the thread Ishian, read the above posts and your answer should be there. The answer I took to my group was that Barbarian A has to be adjacent to Barbarian B to activate Sympathetic Rage, but he may then move away and continue "Raging" as long as he remains within 30 ft, due to the fact that he can most likely consider himself his own ally for the effects of Warleader's Rage. You are correct that it would also work if Barbarian B had Warleader's Rage, but in this scenario he did not.
And here I was checking out the the new thread posts. "Hey wait that's me, I haven't created my own thread in a while. I wonder what this could be."
I appreciate the response and you starting this post awhile ago as it has answered a few questions I have had. I have read the other responses several times but I was just trying to understand the mechanics of how the feat worked "with you as your own ally". I read earlier that one person said it would work, but they did not give any details. Later in the post it was quoted that you are considered your own ally as long as it makes sense and it is otherwise impossible. In the feat warleader's rage it states that feats and abilities that allow an ally to rage or enhance a rage if adjacent to you persist as long as your ally is within 30 feet of you and can see you. The feat mentions you, not ally several times and I apologize if I am misreading this but if you are your own ally would you not always be within 30ft. of yourself with this interpretation? I guess what I am trying to say is with this interpretation after you have initially began the rage beside another raging orc or halforc as stated in the feat, you would count as your own ally as long as you can be within 30 feet of you and see yourself this feat will allow you to rage? I would like to take warleader's rage with an upcoming character build but I was having trouble understanding how barbarian A could have the feat and reap the benefits the way it was interpreted without abuse. I do not think the feat was intended to be read this way so I wanted to get other peoples opinion's because I thought both barbarians would have to take warleader's rage to allow a feats like amplified rage to continue while 30ft. from each other if each one wanted to gain the benefits at a distance. Meaning both barbarians have amplified rage and warleader's rage, but barbarian A's warleader's rage allows barbarian B to go 30ft away and continue with amplified rage and barbarian B's warleader's rage allows barbarian A to do the same. I would be happy if it works the way you stated as it would save one of us a feat but I just wanted some clarification. Thanks again and sorry if I missed something.
Remember the most important disclaimer to the "count as your own ally" clause:
Ally: Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."—Sean K Reynolds, 10/12/10
I think this is the key to your confusion, mostly because it is a very confusing ruling. In my opinion, counting yourself as your own ally so you can Sympathetic Rage at 30 ft makes sense within the rules, but counting yourself as your own ally so that you can always sympathetic rage forever because you're "adjacent to yourself" doesn't make any sense realistically or within the rules. Thus I came to the conclusion(Yours may differ), that you can begin the rage and then move away etc.
I think this is the key to your confusion, mostly because it is a very confusing ruling. In my opinion, counting yourself as your own ally so you can Sympathetic Rage at 30 ft makes sense within the rules, but counting yourself as your own ally so that you can always sympathetic rage forever because you're "adjacent to yourself" doesn't make any sense realistically or within the rules. Thus I came to the conclusion(Yours may differ), that you can begin the rage and then move away etc.Remember the most important disclaimer to the "count as your own ally" clause:
Ally: Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."—Sean K Reynolds, 10/12/10
I agree that being able to sympathetic rage forever would not make any sense as I stated in a earlier post that I thought that interpretation would only lead to abusing the feat, using it in a way it was not intended. I gave that example because the feat warleader's rage states that an ally (which could mean you or your allies) must be within 30 feet of you (not 30 ft. from you or your allies). That is why I came to reason that barbarian A in your original example would not be able to gain the benefits from the feat because doing so would not make any sense due to the fact it does not state anything about staying within 30ft. of your ally (in this case it would be barbarian B) it just says your "ally" must stay within 30 ft. of you and can see you (how can barbarian B can be "you" without taking the feat?). I appreciate the response and will talk it over with my group in the future to see if they agree that the feat should be allowed to be used in the way you mentioned or with both characters having to have warleader's rage to be able to move 30 ft. and still have the benefits from feat's like sympathetic rage or amplified rage. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I respect what you have stated earlier and I thank you for your input.
I agree that being able to sympathetic rage forever would not make any sense as I stated in a earlier post that I thought that interpretation would only lead to abusing the feat, using it in a way it was not intended. I gave that example because the feat warleader's rage states that an ally (which could mean you or your allies) must be within 30 feet of you (not 30 ft. from you or your allies). That is why I came to reason that barbarian A in your original example would not be able to gain the benefits from the feat because doing so would not make any sense due to the fact it does not state anything about staying within 30ft. of your ally (in this case it would be barbarian B) it just says your "ally" must stay within 30 ft. of you and can see you (how can barbarian B be considered "you" without taking the feat?). I appreciate the response and will talk it over with my group in the future to see if they agree that the feat should be allowed to be used in the way you mentioned or with both characters having to have warleader's rage to be able to move...I think this is the key to your confusion, mostly because it is a very confusing ruling. In my opinion, counting yourself as your own ally so you can Sympathetic Rage at 30 ft makes sense within the rules, but counting yourself as your own ally so that you can always sympathetic rage forever because you're "adjacent to yourself" doesn't make any sense realistically or within the rules. Thus I came to the conclusion(Yours may differ), that you can begin the rage and then move away etc.Remember the most important disclaimer to the "count as your own ally" clause:
Ally: Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."—Sean K Reynolds, 10/12/10
I guess a more simple way of stating what I was trying to say is that as you mentioned earlier it makes no sense to count yourself as your own ally so that you can always sympathetic rage forever because you're "adjacent to yourself" (I agree with this statement), but instead you are allowing the character (barbarian B in your example) that doesn't have the feat warleader's rage that was adjacent to barbarian A to be considered "you" like he also has the feat (which also makes no sense in my opinion) so barbarian A can gain the benefits of sympathetic rage from 30ft. away from barbarian B. Hope this helps clear up what I was trying to state earlier and sorry for any confusion.
see my example using the feats own wording as you are using it:Feats and abilities that allow barbarian A(ally) to rage or enhance a rage if adjacent to barbarian B(you) (such as Amplified Rage and Sympathetic Rage) persist as long as barbarian A(ally) is within 30 feet of barbarian B(you) and can see barbarian B(you). The conditions to activate the rage effect remain unchanged. For example, barbarian A (ally) with Sympathetic Rage must be adjacent to barbarian B(you) to enter his own rage, but once his rage begins, barbarian A(he) can continue raging as long as he can see barbarian B(you) and barbarian B(you) are within 30 feet.