Ishian Shade's page

For a chained Barbarian, the way it's written I can see most of the bonuses stacking, nix the heroism bonus to Will saves.

For an unchained Barbarian, no, as their rage directly influences attack and damage rolls.

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I should have clarified that it was a normal barbarian (not unchained) because of the strength bonus while raging.

I have read other threads about stacking issues and I apologise for bringing up this question if it has been answered elsewear. A barbarian gets heroism cast upon him, granting him a +2 morale bonus to his attacks and other effects. While still under the effects of the spell he goes into a rage, giving him a +4 morale bonus to strength as well as other effects. Would the barbarian get a plus 4 or plus 2 bonus to attack? I know bonuses of the same type do not stack when applied to the same ability, but in this case they are not applied to the same ability, but it does effect the same thing (in this case the barbarian's melee attack bonus) indirectly. Thank you.

Good day James, I had a quick question in regards to Curse of the Crimson Throne AP. I have read through the entire updated hardcover version and I am looking forward to running it for our gaming group in the near future. I had a question about the motivations in one part of the adventure that I am worried that I will not be able to answer well enough to satisfy my adventuring group (Most have been playing since AD&D was released).

The problem with that conception of the Rage ability is that the Rage ability can be activated or deactivated with a free action, at will. So "uncontrollable" simply isn't the case. Rage doesn't actually prevent a raging character from doing anything - it's simply a question of what they can do without rage ending.

In a "barfight scenario" the character would be consciously deciding to go into a Rage state, and his actions while in a Rage - what he does, who and how he fights - are totally under his control. He can stop and take a moment to size-up an opponent, it's just a question of whether Rage has to stop to do it, and personally I think that momentarilly studying a foe for a killing blow is plenty aggressive enough an action to fit with how Rage works.

You stated that " Rage doesn't actually prevent a raging character from doing anything - it's simply a question of what they can do without rage ending." If you read the rage ability it specifically states many things you can not do while raging. While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration. This is why I asked the original question of what class abilities a raging character can activate and/or use while raging.

It's been said before, and stands being said again: Rage isn't a form of mental retardation. It's also not some berserk state where you can't control yourself and have to attack things right away.

I'm not sure how much of an issue move-action Study would be anyways, considering that you can Study before entering rage, and then once you're actually in the thick of a battle you probably aren't giving up move actions to Study anyhow.

I do not believe that rage causes a form of mental retardation as you stated earlier. In my opinion it does alter how you would normally act or think. Anger definition - a strong feeling of annoyance, displeasure, or hostility. Hatred definition - intense dislike or ill will. Rage definition - violent, uncontrollable anger. Rage > Hatred > Anger, which would make me think that although you can take a feat (seething anger) to be able to focus your hatred to increase your damage during a battle, it should not mean that while in a uncontrollable fit of rage you should be able to stop and determine what your enemies weaknesses are (whatever action you use) with no feat invested (like in the seething anger case) and be able to use studied target in that way.

I guess I picture it this way, your character is having a drink at a bar talking with another patron. Someone walks up and spits in his face and curses him. Your character goes into a rage to knock the guy's head-off who just spat in his face. Do you believe that he would stop after the first swing for a second to study his target or continue to pound his face in? During a fit of violent, uncontrollable anger?

Perhaps it's useful to zoom in on what you can't do while raging;

Quote:

any ability that requires patience or concentration

Something that requires only a Move or Swift action to do clearly doesn't require much patience.

As for requiring concentration: is it something that you could interrupt and force a Concentration check on, like spellcasting? Are there any possible penalties for distraction (like searching a room with perception, in the middle of a fight)? If the concentration required for an ability is so minimal that it can't be hindered and broken, then Rage shouldn't get in the way either.

Quote:

Judgment (Su) Starting at 1st level, an inquisitor can pronounce judgment upon her foes as a swift action.

CRB > Combat > Use Special Ability > Supernatural Ability wrote:

Supernatural Abilities (Su): Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability's description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Judgement doesn't take long enough to pronounce to require concentration, and as a supernatural ability, by definition doesn't require concentration.

Great find and well put, I think that we all agree that there should be no issue using Judgments while raging. I wish it was as cut and dry when using studied target. I agree that a move or swift action can at times not need any patience or concentration, but there are also times when I think that there is a gray area as well. It sounds like the consensus so far is if you are raging and use an immediate action to activate the studied target during a sneak attack or as a swift action after level 7 you should have no issues. I still wonder about the move action, but then I think to myself if you can use the ability as an immediate action and swift action while raging, why the heck should it even matter if you use a move action to activate the ability...? You are doing the same thing / getting the same result regardless of what action it takes to do it. I guess my next question would be while in a rage you can not use any intelligence based skills. Although studied target is a class ability and not a skill, In my opinion one would think that a slayer using studied target is using his/her intelligence and past experiences of a certain creatures weaknesses to gain the benefits of studied target. Any thoughts?

I don't see any issues with mixing Inquisitor judgements and rage. Nothing about the description sounds like it requires patience or concentration. After all, it's just a swift action to basically say "I will kick ass in *Deity*'s name!" Heck, fluff-wise I could easily see merging the judgement and the rage into a single thing. I can totally see a Barb-quisitor charging into battle screaming "Blood for the Blood God!"

Studied Target is ... trickier. Personally, I'd think that once it's a swift action, it shouldn't be a problem for a barbarian. After all, at that point it's not really taking much in the way of patience or concentration; it's more like just being really good at sizing people up and spotting weak points.

I am in agreement with your thoughts on mixing the Inquisitor judgments and rage. They are using a divine power granted by their deity to declare judgment upon a foe. Not much concentration or patience needed in my opinion. The studied target question as you mentioned is definitely trickier. On one hand I see your point about a swift action not needing much thought or time to be able to complete, but on the other hand I think about something like a quickened spell, which uses a swift action as well. Is it more a question about the action you are using or what you are doing with the action? I am not really sure. Thanks for bringing up a good point.

One of the feats available for Slayers to boost Studied Target is called Seething Hatred. I take that as a sign that Slayers can study and rage just fine. Being really angry doesn't get in the way of going after your enemies one by one and tearing them apart.

As for the inquisitor, there's no clear rule saying you can't. It be a bit odd in flavour for some judgements (healing), but for others it makes perfect sense (destruction, smiting). If the inquisitor of Gorum is going all "kill them all, let Our Lord In Iron sort them out", I don't see how Rage gets in the way of that.

When we're talking about an inquisitor pronouncing judgment, what kind of mental image do you have? Is it a calm man in a wig reading a carefully considered text (in a Swift action) or is more of a Judge Dredd "GUILTY!!!" kind of verdict?

I would say it would depend of what deity the inquisitor worships as to how they would declare their judgment ability. As you mentioned earlier an inquisitor of Gorum I could see similar to Judge Dread when declaring their judgment seething in anger, but an inquisitor of Sarenrae would be more reserved in how they act and how they declare their judgment. It would just depend on the character in my opinion. Thanks for the thought about the seething hatred feat, it gives some insight on what a slayer can do when using studied target. I appreciate the response.

I recently read several threads about being able to sneak attack while raging (I believe most people agree this is not an issue), and casting while raging (I believe most people think that unless you take a class like bloodrager or use the moment of clarity rage power you can't rage and cast even if you use the urban barbarian archetype rage.) After reading these threads I was wondering what other class abilities can you use while raging? For instance the slayer class and it's studied target ability. It takes an action to be able to activate the ability, and to study anything you would think would take patience or concentration so I believe you could not be raging and activate the studied target ability. This leads to my real question of the thread.... What if you already have studied target activated, then go into a rage. I would think that your bonuses from studied target would continue due to the fact that you have already took the time/action to look at your target, determine his/her weaknesses, and therefore get your bonus to hit/damage from studied target. At this point you could activate your rage power and become a raging loony that knows where to really hit your target to cause maximum damage, which should not take any concentration or patience in my humble opinion. I hope I am not missing something but does this seem like a fair assessment on how both abilities would work together? What about when raging while using an inquisitor's judgment class feature? Thanks.

Studied Target (Ex)

A slayer can study an opponent he can see as a move action. The slayer then gains a +1 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks attempted against that opponent, and a +1 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against it. The DCs of slayer class abilities against that opponent increase by 1. A slayer can only maintain these bonuses against one opponent at a time; these bonuses remain in effect until either the opponent is dead or the slayer studies a new target.

If a slayer deals sneak attack damage to a target, he can study that target as an immediate action, allowing him to apply his studied target bonuses against that target (including to the normal weapon damage roll).

At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, the bonuses on weapon attack rolls, damage rolls, and skill checks and to slayer DCs against a studied target increase by 1. In addition, at each such interval, the slayer is able to maintain these bonuses against an additional studied target at the same time. The slayer may discard this connection to a studied target as a free action, allowing him to study another target in its place.

At 7th level, a slayer can study an opponent as a move or swift action.

Rage (Ex)

While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.

Judgment (Su)

Starting at 1st level, an inquisitor can pronounce judgment upon her foes as a swift action. Starting when the judgment is made, the inquisitor receives a bonus or special ability based on the type of judgment made.

At 1st level, an inquisitor can use this ability once per day. At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the inquisitor can use this ability one additional time per day. Once activated, this ability lasts until the combat ends, at which point all of the bonuses immediately end. The inquisitor must participate in the combat to gain these bonuses. If she is frightened, panicked, paralyzed, stunned, unconscious, or otherwise prevented from participating in the combat, the ability does not end, but the bonuses do not resume until she can participate in the combat again.

When the inquisitor uses this ability, she must select one type of judgment to make. As a swift action, she can change this judgment to another type. If the inquisitor is evil, she receives profane bonuses instead of sacred, as appropriate. Neutral inquisitors must select profane or sacred bonuses. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.

Alistus wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

Remember the most important disclaimer to the "count as your own ally" clause:

Ally: Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."

—Sean K Reynolds, 10/12/10

I think this is the key to your confusion, mostly because it is a very confusing ruling. In my opinion, counting yourself as your own ally so you can Sympathetic Rage at 30 ft makes sense within the rules, but counting yourself as your own ally so that you can always sympathetic rage forever because you're "adjacent to yourself" doesn't make any sense realistically or within the rules. Thus I came to the conclusion(Yours may differ), that you can begin the rage and then move away etc.

I agree that being able to sympathetic rage forever would not make any sense as I stated in a earlier post that I thought that interpretation would only lead to abusing the feat, using it in a way it was not intended. I gave that example because the feat warleader's rage states that an ally (which could mean you or your allies) must be within 30 feet of you (not 30 ft. from you or your allies). That is why I came to reason that barbarian A in your original example would not be able to gain the benefits from the feat because doing so would not make any sense due to the fact it does not state anything about staying within 30ft. of your ally (in this case it would be barbarian B) it just says your "ally" must stay within 30 ft. of you and can see you (how can barbarian B be considered "you" without taking the feat?). I appreciate the response and will talk it over with my group in the future to see if they agree that the feat should be allowed to be used in the way you mentioned or with both characters having to have warleader's rage to be able to move...

I guess a more simple way of stating what I was trying to say is that as you mentioned earlier it makes no sense to count yourself as your own ally so that you can always sympathetic rage forever because you're "adjacent to yourself" (I agree with this statement), but instead you are allowing the character (barbarian B in your example) that doesn't have the feat warleader's rage that was adjacent to barbarian A to be considered "you" like he also has the feat (which also makes no sense in my opinion) so barbarian A can gain the benefits of sympathetic rage from 30ft. away from barbarian B. Hope this helps clear up what I was trying to state earlier and sorry for any confusion.

Ssalarn wrote:

Remember the most important disclaimer to the "count as your own ally" clause:

Ally: Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."

—Sean K Reynolds, 10/12/10

I think this is the key to your confusion, mostly because it is a very confusing ruling. In my opinion, counting yourself as your own ally so you can Sympathetic Rage at 30 ft makes sense within the rules, but counting yourself as your own ally so that you can always sympathetic rage forever because you're "adjacent to yourself" doesn't make any sense realistically or within the rules. Thus I came to the conclusion(Yours may differ), that you can begin the rage and then move away etc.

I agree that being able to sympathetic rage forever would not make any sense as I stated in a earlier post that I thought that interpretation would only lead to abusing the feat, using it in a way it was not intended. I gave that example because the feat warleader's rage states that an ally (which could mean you or your allies) must be within 30 feet of you (not 30 ft. from you or your allies). That is why I came to reason that barbarian A in your original example would not be able to gain the benefits from the feat because doing so would not make any sense due to the fact it does not state anything about staying within 30ft. of your ally (in this case it would be barbarian B) it just says your "ally" must stay within 30 ft. of you and can see you (how can barbarian B can be "you" without taking the feat?). I appreciate the response and will talk it over with my group in the future to see if they agree that the feat should be allowed to be used in the way you mentioned or with both characters having to have warleader's rage to be able to move 30 ft. and still have the benefits from feat's like sympathetic rage or amplified rage. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I respect what you have stated earlier and I thank you for your input.

That was the question of the thread Ishian, read the above posts and your answer should be there. The answer I took to my group was that Barbarian A has to be adjacent to Barbarian B to activate Sympathetic Rage, but he may then move away and continue "Raging" as long as he remains within 30 ft, due to the fact that he can most likely consider himself his own ally for the effects of Warleader's Rage. You are correct that it would also work if Barbarian B had Warleader's Rage, but in this scenario he did not.

And here I was checking out the the new thread posts. "Hey wait that's me, I haven't created my own thread in a while. I wonder what this could be."

I appreciate the response and you starting this post awhile ago as it has answered a few questions I have had. I have read the other responses several times but I was just trying to understand the mechanics of how the feat worked "with you as your own ally". I read earlier that one person said it would work, but they did not give any details. Later in the post it was quoted that you are considered your own ally as long as it makes sense and it is otherwise impossible. In the feat warleader's rage it states that feats and abilities that allow an ally to rage or enhance a rage if adjacent to you persist as long as your ally is within 30 feet of you and can see you. The feat mentions you, not ally several times and I apologize if I am misreading this but if you are your own ally would you not always be within 30ft. of yourself with this interpretation? I guess what I am trying to say is with this interpretation after you have initially began the rage beside another raging orc or halforc as stated in the feat, you would count as your own ally as long as you can be within 30 feet of you and see yourself this feat will allow you to rage? I would like to take warleader's rage with an upcoming character build but I was having trouble understanding how barbarian A could have the feat and reap the benefits the way it was interpreted without abuse. I do not think the feat was intended to be read this way so I wanted to get other peoples opinion's because I thought both barbarians would have to take warleader's rage to allow a feats like amplified rage to continue while 30ft. from each other if each one wanted to gain the benefits at a distance. Meaning both barbarians have amplified rage and warleader's rage, but barbarian A's warleader's rage allows barbarian B to go 30ft away and continue with amplified rage and barbarian B's warleader's rage allows barbarian A to do the same. I would be happy if it works the way you stated as it would save one of us a feat but I just wanted some clarification. Thanks again and sorry if I missed something.

Alistus wrote:

So new example:

Barbarian A and Barbarian B are adjacent at the beginning of an encounter, Barbarian B rages, allowing Barbarian A to activate Sympathetic Rage, then moves away from Barbarian A to attack an enemy, but stays within 30. Is Barbarian A still under the effects of Sympathetic Rage?

Barbarian A needs to be next to Raging Barbarian B to enter the rage. Its a free action to enter. You cant do free actions on other peoples turn. If on barbarian A's turn, he is next to someone raging, then he can enter rage using Sympathetic rage. Looks like He can keep raging as long as he is within 30 ft of Barbarian B if he has the warleader's rage.

Warleader's Rage

Prerequisite: Cha 13, half-orc or orc, non-lawful

Benefit: Feats and abilities that allow an ally to rage or enhance a rage if adjacent to you (such as Amplified Rage and Sympathetic Rage) persist as long as your ally is within 30 feet of you and can see you. The conditions to activate the rage effect remain unchanged. For example, an ally with Sympathetic Rage must be adjacent to you to enter his own rage, but once his rage begins, he can continue raging as long as he can see you and you are within 30 feet.

I could see this working if Barbarian B had warleader's rage instead of Barbarian A but I was wondering if you could explain how barbarian A could move within 30ft and still continue raging in his example. I would think he would become fatigued as soon as barbarian B was no longer adjacent to him. Thanks

The ARG is the only one that is restricted to being the race that the feat/spell is listed in the section of.

Other books are not restricted as such, and that was mostly because of Paragon Surge when the ARG came out.

Thank you for the replies, I was thinking of taking this feat for a half-orc inquisitor in a upcoming campaign but I was not sure if it was legal. An inquisitor is somewhat swift action restricted but I think an extra attack would be definitely worth it for my character build.

Ms. Pleiades wrote:

He was wrong, Hurtful is a Bugbear feat.

Also, look into Cornugon Smash at higher levels.

Great! I could start using Hurtful at 2nd level thanks to Martial Flexibility. My level 1 feat is Enforcer. Bonus feat at 2 will be Power Attack. Level 3 may now be Hurtful. Somewhere I want to work in Intimidating Prowess.

Cornugon Smash, unfortunately, does not line up with the 2nd bonus feat at 5th, but I could always either retrain into it at 6th or take it at 7th. It would be useful against things that I don't want to non-lethal. Most if those, though, will likely be mindless anyway, and I could always use Martial Flexibility to grab it temporarily in those cases.

I apologize if I am missing something but how can you take a bugbear feat as a half-orc? The feat itself does not have a race requirement, but what from what I have read it is listed in the bugbear feats section of the Monster Codex. (Again I apologize if I have missed something as I do not have the Monster Codex book in front of me) How is it legal to take by any other race other than a bugbear?