My PCs just wrapped up burnt offerings, and the Lawful members of the party decided that Orik needed to be taken back to Sandpoint and tried for his allegiance to Nualia and her gang. I am wondering if anyone else has seen this, or if you have any good ideas for how the trial might pan out. How are trials in Sandpoint even decided?
I'd not let him stand trial in Sandpoint. Let him be shipped to Magnimar where he gets to know Justice Ironbriar. Next: evil GM(TM) fun ensues...
Otherwise: Sandpoint nobility as judges, maybe Zantus and Hemlock in addition.
Trial takes place in townhall.
Ruyan.
Yeah if he wants to follow the law, it dictates that he be tried in Magnimar. Unfortunately, later that may have consequences for him, though since it's Orik and not the other ones, maybe not.
If you want to have the pc's participate in his trial, have the Sherrif ask them to go to Magnimar to be witnesses of his crimes. Have a false trial where he gets fast-tracked into the dungeon (I believe it is called the Hells).
It might sidetrack the adventure for a little bit, but if your players like to roleplay I'd definitely do it, plus it will introduce Ironbriar, whom they should probably like at this point. Just make sure that the Sherrif stresses Sandpoints need for the heros and that their job isn't done yet, otherwise the PC's might not come back from the big city.
Yeah, like others have said I'd use this as an opportunity to introduce Justice Ironbriar in a cooperative fashion, and plant the seeds for what's to come in the next chapter. Note that he's also be wanted for murder in Riddleport, so depending on how organized law enforcement and bounty hunters are in Magnimar, that's likely to come up too. If it were me, here's what I'd do:
The PCs escort Vancaskerkin to Magnimar, and turn him over to the law.
There's a speedy trial, where they're introduced to Ironbriar, and perhaps he does some quick questioning of Orik and the PCs in a zone of truth spell. This serves not only to establish Orik's guilt but also to potentially ferret out some info about the PCs' identities, loyalties, and tactics in a very general way (explain exactly how he came to be in your custody, etc.).
As a mercenary employee rather than the mastermind behind the plot, Orik is found guilty of conspiracy to destroy one of Magnimar's holdings (Sandpoint), and his murder charges are simultaneously uncovered. The murder charges are deemed the more serious of the two.
Ironbriar throws him in a cell to await the next ship to Riddleport, and rewards the PCs with half of Vancaskerkin's bounty (they can just sell Vancaskerkin to whatever bounty hunter will escort him to Riddleport and claim the full reward). He commends them for their efforts in preserving the peace, and asks them to check in with his office if they find themselves in Magnimar and looking for work in the future.
This dovetails nicely with the events of The Skinsaw Murders, and positions Ironbriar as a highly-placed contact in Magnimar's government that they can come to in the future when they're following Aldern's trail. At which point he can send them on fool's errands, use them as patsies, or simply monitor their investigations to report back to Xanesha. Fun!
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In my game, not only did he (and Lyrie, and Ripnugget, in fact) stand trial before Justice Ironbriar, he was sentenced to life with the Black Arrows. Escorting him to Fort Rannick was my lead-in to book 3.
My group let him go with all his equipment. He did fight them alongside the bugbear, but upon the latter's death, he surrendered and sang like a canary.
I've decided to do what several other GMs have done, and have him have joined the Black Arrows. They'll find him along with the other three survivors with the Hillbilly Half-Ogres.
In my game Orik and Lyrie slipped away from Shalelu when she was alerted that the PCs were getting reamed by the yeth hounds. The set up: Orik surrendered without a fight and Lyrie was tricked into surrendering by some crafty PC bluffing. Shalelu (who had been a prisoner of Bruthazmus) agreed to escort the prisoners back to Sandpoint. But while trying to get her prisoners across the now broken bridge she received a whispered message that she was needed and was forced to abandon Orik and Lyrie. Of course by the time she got back to them they were long gone.
My PCs just wrapped up burnt offerings, and the Lawful members of the party decided that Orik needed to be taken back to Sandpoint and tried for his allegiance to Nualia and her gang. I am wondering if anyone else has seen this, or if you have any good ideas for how the trial might pan out. How are trials in Sandpoint even decided?
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What wrongdoings, exactly, do the PC's have evidence of? Living in the same place as someone evil? Taking money as a paid mercenary and being kept in the dark as to his employer's greater purpose? Fighting back against the 'lawful' invaders who attacked his home and began killing indiscriminantly?Nualia, sure, but Orik is a bit of a reach in my opinion as written.
In our game he was Charmed by our Sorcereress and fought alongside the PC's, eventually taking some pay and heading out on his own. The PC's encountered him later at Turtleback Ferry...
My PCs just wrapped up burnt offerings, and the Lawful members of the party decided that Orik needed to be taken back to Sandpoint and tried for his allegiance to Nualia and her gang. I am wondering if anyone else has seen this, or if you have any good ideas for how the trial might pan out. How are trials in Sandpoint even decided?.
What wrongdoings, exactly, do the PC's have evidence of? Living in the same place as someone evil? Taking money as a paid mercenary and being kept in the dark as to his employer's greater purpose? Fighting back against the 'lawful' invaders who attacked his home and began killing indiscriminantly?Nualia, sure, but Orik is a bit of a reach in my opinion as written.
In our game he was Charmed by our Sorcereress and fought alongside the PC's, eventually taking some pay and heading out on his own. The PC's encountered him later at Turtleback Ferry...
He is guilty of being a member of a terrorist organization/demonic cult which has already invaded Sandpoint once, causing mayhem and death, and has explicit plans to raze the town and kill everyone in the name of Lamashtu. Whether or not he shares their views or is just in it for the money is inconsequential, his associations make him guilty. Not sure where you are from, but US law is pretty clear cut on associating with terrorists.
Sandpoint is not the United States.
In fact, the region isn't even settled. It's a region perhaps akin to the early North American colonies with goblins counting as one of several "native" tribes, one that is hostile toward the settlers.
The only justice is that of the various religious orders. Sandpoint's authority ends at the edge of town. It doesn't even really have any authority over the farms though I suspect the Sandpoint militia does occasionally head out there to check on people (as you don't want to have the farms all destroyed lest the people starve).
So if the PCs slaughter every single entity in Thistletop? No one will care, outside of maybe a couple religious orders. If the PCs tortured everyone there, committed acts of rape and the like? No one would listen to the goblins and the humans there would be considered suspect and probably not listened to anyway.
It's easy to put 21st century mores into fantasy worlds but these realms are not in any way similar to ours. We live in a region that is civilized. Even those regions suffering from civil war are still more civilized than even many of the countries on Golarion.
It's perfectly reasonable to put him on trial. That's what trials are for - to find out whether he's guilty, and of what. And if guilty, what his punishment should be.
Sandpoint is not the United States.
In fact, the region isn't even settled. It's a region perhaps akin to the early North American colonies with goblins counting as one of several "native" tribes, one that is hostile toward the settlers.
The only justice is that of the various religious orders. Sandpoint's authority ends at the edge of town. It doesn't even really have any authority over the farms though I suspect the Sandpoint militia does occasionally head out there to check on people (as you don't want to have the farms all destroyed lest the people starve).
So if the PCs slaughter every single entity in Thistletop? No one will care, outside of maybe a couple religious orders. If the PCs tortured everyone there, committed acts of rape and the like? No one would listen to the goblins and the humans there would be considered suspect and probably not listened to anyway.
It's easy to put 21st century mores into fantasy worlds but these realms are not in any way similar to ours. We live in a region that is civilized. Even those regions suffering from civil war are still more civilized than even many of the countries on Golarion.
Thank you. This is exactly the type of morality discussion I was hoping for when I posted this thread. Thanks, everyone. As it stands, Orik has been taken back to Sandpoint to stand trial and our session ended there. I will post the results after our game Saturday.
Thank you. This is exactly the type of morality discussion I was hoping for when I posted this thread. Thanks, everyone. As it stands, Orik has been taken back to Sandpoint to stand trial and our session ended there. I will post the results after our game Saturday.Sandpoint is not the United States.
In fact, the region isn't even settled. It's a region perhaps akin to the early North American colonies with goblins counting as one of several "native" tribes, one that is hostile toward the settlers.
The only justice is that of the various religious orders. Sandpoint's authority ends at the edge of town. It doesn't even really have any authority over the farms though I suspect the Sandpoint militia does occasionally head out there to check on people (as you don't want to have the farms all destroyed lest the people starve).
So if the PCs slaughter every single entity in Thistletop? No one will care, outside of maybe a couple religious orders. If the PCs tortured everyone there, committed acts of rape and the like? No one would listen to the goblins and the humans there would be considered suspect and probably not listened to anyway.
It's easy to put 21st century mores into fantasy worlds but these realms are not in any way similar to ours. We live in a region that is civilized. Even those regions suffering from civil war are still more civilized than even many of the countries on Golarion.
I believe the motivation for secular involvement (from law enforcement and the like) outside of the cities proper would be economic. Are the bad guys interfering with trade? Go get em. Are the bad guys killing farmers and therefor disrupting their taxes? Wipe em out. Are they dancing around naked praying to snakes and engaging in orgies of vice? Nah, we've got bigger fish to fry.
One thing to consider is what crimes he's committed in Sandpoint and surrounding regions. He was not involved on any assaults on Sandpoint. He was a hired guard by Nualia in Thistletop, helping her and her companions investigate a Thassilonian ruin. Seeing he didn't help in the assaults and did surrender, I could see a fine being levied against him, possibly awarding his equipment to the PCs, and then set free with the knowledge if he's caught doing something illicit again, he's going to be sent to Magnimar and put into the Hells (the Magnimar prisons).
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The counterpoint is that if they can find out about his wanted status in Riddleport, they might be able to get him convicted of that. That's sort of the approach I'm taking for my table - they were able to convince Orik to turn over a new leaf, but failed to persuade Lyrie, so that's who's getting prosecuted. The Magnimar book is maddeningly vague on how the legal system works, since it basically comes down to "whatever the Justice presiding feels like." It's a frontier area, and Magnimar was founded by people who were escaping an oppressive regime that squashed down on freedoms, so there's not many actual laws.
In retrospect, this is great, because it lets you set up the trial however you want. Here's how it will work in my campaign: the defense presents its case on the first day of trial. The prosecution then has three days to raise objections to any of the statements made by the defense. If they cannot convince the Justice at the end of those three days that there is enough reason to convict, then they are set freed. Otherwise, the Justice rules at hands out a sentence immediately. Basically, I'll be creating a deposition for the players to read through, and then scour Magnimar for evidence to refute these claims. Each clue they find earns them Conviction points. Get enough of them, and Justice Ironbriar will sentence her to life in the Hells, or possibly even death.
Actually, that's a lie. As we know, Ironbriar is controlled by Xanesha. She'll be watching this trial with a bit of interest, as Nualia's a possible thread leading back to the Magnimar operation. Conviction points aren't actually influencing Ironbriar; they're convincing Xanesha that Lyrie's worth adding as an ally. If they get enough points, then she'll order Ironbriar to sentence her, but have her quietly taken into the conspiracy. She'll show back up in the Seven's Sawmill, allied with Ironbriar in that fight, which should make for a great moment of surprise when they realize that she's been given a second chance to strike at them. If she survives there, then I plan on adding her to the Scarecrow fight - firing a lightning bolt to heal it and injure the party is dirty pool, but that's the only kind I play.
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So, here is how his trial played out: Justice Ironbriar presided, and each PC was questioned and cross-examined by barristers to discern if they believed that he was guilty of the charges of "aiding and associating with a nihilistic religious cult that plotted the wanton slaughter of the peoples of Sandpoint." Then the alchemists brother from Riddleport was brought in as a character witness, adding in his story. To demonstrate the ruthlessness of Ironbriar, Orik was sentenced to 15 years in the Hells.
All in all, it was a success. Only one out of five thought it was a boring session, but she has an itchy trigger finger (er, archery finger, or whatever). The rest called it "Law and Order: D&D" and enjoyed the role-play opportunities after several sessions of dungeon-crawling.
Orik also survived and was captured in my game. They turned him over to the Sheriff. He also is more sympathetic than just how he is presented in the book. They questioned him and found him to be honorable despite his association with Nulia.
My pcs just finished Burnt Offerings and I have decided to have the initial trial in Sandpoint. Depending on how it goes, he may be tried in Magnimar, but they want to have the trial and sentencing here in Sandpoint. I know there is a lot of reasons to have the trial in Magnimar, but if Sandpoint ever wants to be taken seriously as a town, to the larger towns and what not its going to need a record of being able to meet out some justice with a council or authority of its own.
I like the sentenced to life as a Blackarrow idea Twowolves, and I'm putting that on the table as a option. The other options are death, sent to Magnimar for 'proper' trial which is likely to lead to a sentence in the Hells or become a unpaid townguard to Sandpoint for Life.
I'm going to say that because of the immanent danger presented by Nulia and her plans that the Mayor and the Sheriff exercise their legal rights via being the speakers for the aggrieved town, to hold the trial in the Sandpoint's Town hall.
The Pc's will be called in to be material witnesses. I have the mayor, the sheriff, and 3 undecided seats. I'm probably going to go with.. two Noble born npcs in the town to represent the major players and maybe a random npc that the townsfolk have a liking for. So the Nobles don't appear to 'not care' about their common fellows opinions. Appearances are everything.
I had the Sandpoint Nobles, plus Father Zantus and Sheriff Baylor act as a "grand jury" to hear evidence against Orik and Lyrie (the only survivors of Thistletop). They took about 90 seconds of listening to Lyrie admitting to helping Nualia try to unleash Malfy to agree she should go to the Justices in Magnimar.
It was more muddled with Orik, as the charges against him were less clear. As others have pointed out he hasn't "technically" done anything to break Magnimar law, just guilty by association. I threw in a curve that in another of his poor life choices he had worked for a while in Riddleport as hired muscle for a group of (unknown to him) slavers. Said work had him capture the brother of one of the PCs, with the PC escaping and later recognizing him at Thistletop. So, my Sandpoint Grand Jury decided it was best to let the Justices sort this out. Orik is in protective custody until he, Lyrie, and the PCs take off for Magnimar this weekend.
Due to his unapologetic reaction to the murder in Riddleport and evidence brought forward by the PCs, Justice Ironbriar will offer Orik the choice of the Hells or the Black Arrows, with him choosing the Arrows. Lyrie will be sentenced to the Hells.
Wow. We just let him go with all his gear and everything...
My group let him go but without any gear.
Orik surrendered in the middle of a battle between the pc's and Nualia, the hounds, Lyrie, Ripnugget and Bruthazmus. He was down to 1 hp. He tried to back away from the fight but he could not go too far. The players tried to recruit him to join them and the cleric included him in a channeled healing. Orik realized that having surrendered he was as good as dead if the pc's lost so he picked up his bow and started shooting. Afterward the party stripped him of his gear and tied him up. They kept him that way for the next couple days while they systematically eliminated the dungeon's remaining inhabitants, though both during the battle and afterward they got him to full hp. During the initial assault on the fort, the players had hacked the bridge down (to dangle from the mainland side) because they had gotten past Gogmurt and were concerned he would get more goblins and come upon them "from behind." They were puzzling out how to fix this and stumbled on the idea of climbing down, swimming over, climbing up and tying a rope to the bridge to pull it back. Orik volunteered. So they tied a rope on him, and across he went. Without armor his Climb check is pretty good and the Bunyip was still reeling from "goblin coma," having feasted on all the corpses hurled over the side by the pc's, so he didn't really have any problems. The players set him free with his shirt, pants and shoes and a "Don't let us catch you again." They had no evidence he'd done anything wrong and they weren't actually deputies or anything. And the only other people that knew he was ever involved are dead. I'm thinking about having him be on a 10-day drunken bender in Turtleback Ferry when the players get there in Book 3, the only survivor of the ill-fated Paradise.
Is there any connection between Nualia's group and Xanesha or the Skinsaw Cult?
If not, did anyone develop any? I know some people made Ironbriar into Tsuto's father...
Peet
I just ran a trial in Magnimar for one of my PCs. In his backstory, he stole a magic item for a crimelord in Korvosa, but ran off with it instead of turning it in. Orik had actually recognized the PC, and after escaping Thistletop: gave false testimony to the officials there that the rogue had not only stole from a paladin in Korvosa (true), that he murdered the paladin (false).
I work as a conduct officer at a University, and this shaped the way that I set up the trial. First, the PC was arrested and detained. He was given the opportunity to confess, and to accept the punishment immediately (which would in this case have been deportment back to Korvosa). As he denied the charge of murder, a hearing was set up. I determined that in Magnimar particularly, some of the crimes outside of their borders they wouldn't have cared about. If it was just the theft of a minor magic item: they wouldn't have gotten involved. But murder, and other offenses they would see as threats to their community and have more of an investment in addressing.
Prior to the hearing, the PC was able to state who his legal representative was. Initially he wanted Sheriff Hemlock, but as an officer of the law: he couldn't. So he selected the cleric in our party. The cleric reviewed the evidence (I made a statement from Orik, notes from the murder scene in Korvosa, as well as the opportunity to interview the PC.) A hellknight from Korvosa served as the complainant and presented the case against him, which was thorough.
Additionally, a Zone of Truth spell was cast to ensure honesty. With Zone of Truth, it's interesting because it doesn't compel answers, and like a polgraph: you have to ask very specific questions. If you ask, "Did you burgle and murder the paladin Gallonicus?" The PC could simply answer "No" truthfully, so a lot of time was spent to asking narrow questions.
Ultimately, in my hearing, they were able to exonerate the rogue, but as he admitted the theft and consort with criminals - he was given 24 hours to leave the city. This puts the heat on a bit because they're still in the middle of a murder investigation. It was also interesting because Justice Ironbriar was on the panel - and he was arrested coming out of Foxglove manor.
I would imagine that a Sandpoint trial might be a bit less formal