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I've had a bit of confusion wrapping my mind around the concept of "Summoning"
I was under the interpretation that when you Summon (opposed to Call) a creature, that the creature in question would vanish from wherever it was, and that something like an exact copy of said creature would appear before you.
When the copy died or was dismissed, it would take 24 hours for the real creature to re-materialize just the way it had been before it was affected by the spell.
Admittedly, I don't know where my concept of the copy came from, if I read it somewhere or was told that by someone, or if it was just an idea I had that stuck, but I've reread the description of the summoning school, and some of my thoughts have been flip-flopped around.
Another interpretation that I had was that, because the summon was just a copy, if you wanted to hand a weapon/object to the summon, that the object would still stick around after the summon left. But I can't find anything RAW that supports that thought. In line with that, I believed that any equipment that the summoned creature had on hand at the time of summoning would appear with it, and (just like the creature) would re-materialize in the same condition as when they left (making sundered weapons repaired after the summon wears off.
Someone once told me that if I wanted to hand something to a summoned creature that they could keep, I would have to do a Calling spell instead, but i don't see anything different in the description regarding the ability to take equipment back with them. they both seem to say that they bring the actual real creature to you. its just that in one, the creature can return to its plane by a granted special ability, and in the other, you can dismiss it.
Because of my concept of the copy, I also believed that a summoned creature would be restored to full HP upon rematerializing on its own plane. But I can't find anything RAW about that either. The summoning description simply says that if they die while summoned, that they just take 24 hours to reform in their home plane. Nothing about restoring them in any way.
So, after all that mumbling, I suppose my key questions are the following:
1. Can summoned monsters take equipment given to them back with them when they are dismissed?
-other awkward things follow I suppose: like if they eat something, would the undigested bulk of it fall to the ground when they dismiss?
2. Do summoned creatures retain wounds from when they were summoned after they rematerialize? And if so, if they die when summoned, in what condition are they restored since they 'dont really die'.
and what/where is the RAW regarding the answers?
~Thanks!
Summoned creatures can not take anything with them.
When you summon a creature there is no rule saying you summon the exact same one. A creature has to be called in order to die, and call creatures also gain the use of all of their abilities unlike a summoned creature. Basically the summoned creature is a copy.
The spells just intend for you to gain the use of whatever you want to summon for a limited amount of time.
Your "24 hour" idea might have been from the eidolon from the summoner class.
A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
Is this what you had in mind, Arden? From the school descriptions in the Magic chapter of the Core book.
It's unlikely to make any difference most of the time, unless you need to summon a specific creature. I tend to presume your spell just grabs a healthy specimen.
I do sometimes wonder whether intelligent creatures from other planes are aware of their own vulnerability to being summoned in this way. It must be irritating - in fact I'm sure that in a previous edition of the game, summoned elementals were hostile (small "h") by default and the first trick was to negotiate or otherwise exert control over them.
In game terms exactly what Wraithstrike said. In lore terms, and this is open to interpretation, the concept was metaphysical. Summoned creatures are the 'essence' of a creature. Like a copy or image, but you are only summoning part of their being. Most outsiders are creations of ideals hence the use of alignment subclass. This seems to be an old AD&D thing.
1.) You cannot give them equipment "to take back" as they are not entirely 'there'. They can use equipment while summoned though. They could eat/etc whatever as well, but unless they just want to get overly detailed with that, most DM's will say that's all they take with them.
2.) Summoned creatures just poof when duration or dmg destroys the 'image' of them. The connection is destroyed between that plane and their home plane.
There used to be a thing about summoning the same outsider in older systems. If you could summon the same outsider perhaps the 24 hour thing is to stop people from using spells like Lesser/Greater Planner Ally spells more than once a day. If the summoned creature was destroyed that day, etc.
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Hmmm...
@Wraithstrike
I'm pretty sure summoned creatures can take things with them. The astral deva for example, has a warhammer on its beastiary entry, and there isn't any note to cause me to believe that it wouldnt be able to bring it. or its clothes, etc.
The 24 hour thing is under the description of the Summoning magic subschool, it isn't specific to the eidolon, but rather Summoning in general (which the eidolon falls under since it is a summoning ritual rather than a calling ritual and stuff)
@gardengoth
Yeah! That was the 24 hour thing I was thinking of! Usually yeah, i guess it wouldn't matter unless you were summoning a specific creature, right. But sometimes you might want to. My character researches demons, and might want to summon specific ones rather than call them, at least for combat. Eidolons would also be considered specific outsiders, and my questions kinda apply to them too, because I also enjoy playing summoners for their eidolon too.
@Dahnakris
That was what I was thinking about summons! :D being a copy kinda thing, but I couldn't find ANYTHING about it, and RAW, it does not sound like a copy at all
"A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate."
How did you find out about the equipment thing? I was looking around but couldn't find a RAW stance on that.
As for their HP and condition, it would make sense if they were copies for them to just have the copy poof, but since that doesn't seem to be the case, it would be odd to base gameplay on the fluff than on RAW descriptions (and I can't even find where I read that fluff. if it is a remnant of AD&D, that would explain things, bc i played that, but that means it might be even further from Pathfinder canon, since it isn't only Fluff vs RAW, it turns into Fluff-from-an-outdated-version-of-a-different-game vs RAW)
Planar Ally spells are calling, which isn't affected by the 24 hour thing, because if they die they just, well die. Only the Summoning spells let the creature rematerialize 24hours later
Arden Oakwald, there are (at least) two meanings to "take things with them".
A) The summoned creature brings with it it's normal equipment.
B) The summoned creature can pick up an object after being summoned and when it vanishes the item also vanishes (goes with it).
He was answering your question:
1. Can summoned monsters take equipment given to them back with them when they are dismissed?
-other awkward things follow I suppose: like if they eat something, would the undigested bulk of it fall to the ground when they dismiss?
You were effectively asking question "B" to which he answered no.
The "24 hour" limit is misleading since I do not think there is a way to summon the same exact creature using spells like Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally.
There is no provision (that I am aware of) in the rules to summon a specific named creature. You get a generic creature each time you summon one. Perhaps there is a variant rule somewhere in 3.5 that prompted the 24 hour rule and it wasn't removed when it was brought over to Pathfinder.
Until the Summoner class came out I do not think there was a way to summon the same specific creature. Call yes, but not summon.
A summoned creature comes with any equipment listed in its entry. When it or its duration expires, it disappears along with any equipment it arrived with--no more, no less.
Even eidolons follow this rule unless your GM decides otherwise. Yes, this may make a summoner's Madge the Marilith idea less practical, but them's the rules.
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(@Gauss: yeah, two meaning XD, my bad >_<. i get it now)
but part of what i'm asking is where this rule comes from- where do the books talk about summoned creatures regarding items?
I can't find anything regarding this aside from the insights of the players. I mean, if its just generally excepted among players, I suppose that's one thing- but I don't see why it would be if it isn't backed up by RAW in any way, so I'm really hoping to get pointed to the RAW concerning summons and items, and their condition after rematerializing.
All i can find is this:
"Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have."
There is nothing in there saying they can't bring items to and from being summoned. There is also nothing in there that says anything about them being restored to as they were before being summoned, aside from saying that if they die, it takes longer for them to reform and that they aren't "really dead". Nothing says they get all of their HP and items back or anything.
Nothing says they are a copy- it directly states that a summoning spell "instantly brings a creature to a place you designate"
not a copy. that creature, exactly. So if it is that creature, and they are getting hit, they would probably retain damage even after the spell that is temporarily relocating them wears off. nothing says they dont.
I'm still lost as to RAW's take on summons regarding:
-if they can bring what is on their entry
-if they can take things back when they dismiss
-and if their items are restored after rematerializing (such as using up charges on wands, having something sundered or stolen, etc)
During the 2nd playtest there was discussion in the forums where they said that the eidolon's gear and carried items dropped when it vanished. These discussions never made it into the final print and there have been multiple lengthy faq request threads (some still open) that try to clarify what the eidolon shows up and leaves with/drops upon departure.
Its lack of clarification (or the omission of what could have been an official ruling mentioned in a playtest thread) in official print seems to indicate that after discussing it in playtest that they didnt want to specify it in final draft, leaving it up to fiat. To date the question remains fiat or at best, faq attempts have been responded to with 'no reply required'...
There are advantages and disadvantages to ruling that it can or cant take items with it when it goes. The question is which set of advantages and disadvantages make more sense to your table/seem more fun.
There have been at least 2 threads discussing the appearance of the eidolon and whether it is able to look like something as simple as a normal dog or a pit fiend and there are still a few gms out there that read the RAW and decided it must look like an aberration of even the creature its trying to emulate. Impossible to mistake it for another creature whether mundane or fantastic....
Our table has ruled for better or worse that items do go with it when it leaves and comes back with the items it left with. We've also ruled that the eidolon can properly emulate any creature normal or fantastic without requiring abberations. The restriction is simply that it cannot be made to resemble an npc or pc for the purposes of impersonation and of course always has its rune to match the one on the summoner's forehead..
A careful reading of the text will also show that although the rune on the summoners forehead does appear on the eidolon, it does not necessarily have to appear on the forehead of the eidolon. There are plenty of gms who freak out at the notion of an eidolon that looks like a normal dog with the rune on its belly or on its flank or somesuch.
People are people. What can ya do. The RAW answer to what happens to eidolon gear and what they can look like is, at the moment, pure fiat either way. I'm of the impression paizo prefers to keep it that way.
These threads do go into some detail about the advantages and drawbacks of how choosing gear going with or staying behind can be abused no matter which way your table rules on it.
Personally I'm voting for do whatever you like. It gets me what I want at my table without stepping on other tables toes that don't agree with me.
Supported by the text of existing hardback core books.
Additionally colorfully subverted by me in case your gm is one of the ones that reads the existing text and comes to the opposite conclusions we do and instead really wants you to do something odd to your eidolons appearance.
I found the reason for the 24 hours statement. It was a 3.5 variant rule.
Additionally, it also mentions that summoned creatures leaves items acquired while summoned behind.
While that is not Pathfinder RAW this may be the historical understanding that many people are operating from.
VARIANT: SUMMONING INDIVIDUAL MONSTERS
When a character casts a summon monster or summon nature’s ally spell, she gets a typical, random creature of the kind she chooses. As a variant in your campaign, you can rule that each spellcaster gets specific, individual creatures rather than just some random one. This variant lets players feel more ownership over the creatures that their characters summon, but it entails some special problems, so don’t allow it without considering it carefully.Specific Creatures: Whenever a spellcaster summons a single creature of a given kind, it’s always the same creature. A player can roll the ability scores and hit points for each creature that his character can summon. His specific creatures may be above or below average. Allow the player to take average statistics instead of rolling if he wants to avoid the risk of getting stuck with bad dice rolls. (There’s no hopeless creature reroll” for bad ability scores in this case.) The player can also name each creature and define its distinguishing characteristics.
Multiple Creatures: Whenever a spellcaster summons more creatures, the first one is always the same, and each successive creature is likewise always the same. Thus, if Mialee can summon up to three celestial eagles named Kulik, Skitky, and Kliss, then she always gets Kulik when she summons one celestial eagle, Kulik and Skitky when she summons two, and all three when she summons three. The player can roll ability scores and hit points for all three.
The summoner gets the same creatures no matter which version of a spell she uses. Mialee gets Kulik with summon monster II and she gets Kulik plus possibly Skitky and Kliss with summon monster III.
Summoning Limits: Getting the same intelligent summoned creature over and over again gives a summoner certain advantages. She can, for instance, send a creature to scout out an area for the duration of the spell and then summon it up again to get a report. If the creature is killed (and thus sent back to its home) or dispelled, however, that individual creature is not available to be summoned for 24 hours. The summoner summons one fewer creature of that kind because the unavailable creature still takes up its normal “slot.” Thus, if Kulik is killed and later that day Mialee summons two celestial eagles, she only gets Skitky (instead of Kulik and Skitky).
If a creature that a character summons is actually, truly killed (not just “killed” while summoned), it is no longer available, and the summoner gets one less creature of that kind than normal. On attaining a new level, however, the summoner may replace the slain creature (see below).
Replacing Creatures: Each time a summoner gains a level in a spellcasting class, she can drop out one of her creatures and roll up a new one to fill its “slot.” For example, at 5th level, Mialee can summon Kulik, Skitky, and Kliss with summon monster III. When she reaches 6th level, she can drop any one of her summonable creatures and replace it with a new one. If Kulik has low ability scores or if it has permanently died, she can drop it in favor of a new, randomly rolled creature, which then occupies her “first celestial eagle” slot.
Improving Creatures: Summoners can improve their creatures. Typically, they do so by giving them magic items or other special objects. The trick is, a summoned creature can’t take things back home with it. When a summoned creature disappears, it leaves all the things that it gained while on the Material Plane. Mialee can’t just summon up Kulik and give it a cloak of resistance. She has to go to its plane or bring it actually onto the Material Plane before she can give it anything it can keep. The way to get a creature to actually come to the Material Plane is to use a lesser planar ally, planar ally, greater planar ally, lesser planar binding, planar binding, greater planar binding, or gate spell, since these are all calling spells and actually bring the creature to the caster.
As another note, if a creature did not bring it's normal equipment with it then the Protection from... spells probably wouldn't specifically call out that the natural weapons of a summoned creature would fail. It would probably instead state that all of the summoned creature's attacks would fail.
In short, while it is not explicitly stated anywhere in Pathfinder the historical (ie: 3.5) understanding is as follows:
1) Yes, they bring what is in their entry
2) They cannot take back anything (that they did not bring with them) when they vanish.
3) Since you summon new creatures each time (barring the 3.5 variant rule) it doesn't matter if the equipment is sundered etc.
Perhaps this would make a good FAQ candidate.
Its definitely published and true that the 'concept of the summoner' is that he's formed a 'special bond' with a single extradimensional creature, so that same creature is the eidolon and that same creature shows up each time so that does lend itself to the notion that it's possible for the eidolon to take its gear when it comes and goes.
Our best current active faq on it is up to 18 flags at the moment ^_^
The more the merrier
@Arden. Your questions regarding Summoned creatures and their level of material plane interactivity, looks to be a GM prerogative. There is not a fleshed out description of Summoning in RAW that I can find.
I was curious so I took a good look at Binding and Summoning in the main Pathfinder books. There is a wealth of info on Binding in Ultimate Magic starting on page 101. There is a lot there that I remember from old AD&D editions. Stuff like Binding and Alignment ideals, True names etc. If you read between the lines for Summoning and Binding it appears Pathfinder rolls like this. This is my personal take on it of course. There is simply Summoning and Calling. If the creature isn't 'Called' to the caster's plane, then it cannot obtain 'native' gear and would not retain damage after being dismissed or killed.
Summoned creatures are brought to the material plane (or the plane the summoner is on) and they do what you tell them to as long as they understand you. They are not bound to the plane you summon them to. They are there for a few brief moments (rounds). If the spell ends or they are killed, they simply go back to their home plane.
It does not state they arrive with the gear in their stat blocks, but it is not implied one way or the other. I believe most would consider their gear to be part of their CR and give it to them though when summoned. Edit - Thank you Gauss, apparently they do by the old 3.5 rules. :)
The GM can decide if summoned creatures can bring/take stuff back with them or not. The summoned creature isn't bound to the plane they are summoned to, so it is debatable if they could take things that were bound (aka native) with them. You could reach on this as well into the whole 'the creature cannot use their teleports/summons'. Well why can't they...perhaps because the magic holding them to the casters plane isn't a strong enough to link for the creatures to use them. If the link isn't strong enough for them to even do that, how could they take items back with them. They are tentatively there at best and only for a short time.
Of course if the creature were Called then yea pretty much anything goes. Give them a nick name, hand them that Greatsword +3 to keep etc.
A good example of this is if you were to bind a pit fiend and then bargain with it for a service and attempted to bargain with it using an item....
If you couldnt 'give him the item' in a way that he can take it when he leaves... thats not much of a bargain.
Looking for the post, but as I seem to recall this was not completely true for eidolons (at least in PFS). I seem to recall that the equipment the eidolon has equipped travels with them to and from their home plane.
Nope. Though if you really know of a developer post like that, I'm more than happy to eat summoned crow on the subject.
Of course, there's nothing preventing a GM from allowing it. It begets more issues, of course, such as the eidolon acting as a bag of holding or an impenetrable safe for storing MacGuffins--one that the PCs may lose access to forever if the summoner winds up with a severe enough case of dead.
Called creatures, of course, aren't in question.
Looking for the post, but as I seem to recall this was not completely true for eidolons (at least in PFS). I seem to recall that the equipment the eidolon has equipped travels with them to and from their home plane.Nope. Though if you really know of a developer post like that, I'm more than happy to eat summoned crow on the subject.
Thats the trouble. We're back in that situation where It's not at all simply a matter of "nope, show me a post that proves I'm not right" no matter which opinion folks have taken on it individually.
I could just as easily say show me the line in the official documentation that says that it cant and we'd be in the same dilemma.
Its that most pathfindery of problems that the official documentation doesnt support one view or the other.
The RAW does not address it at all and the only things that even come close to supporting one opinion or the other at this point are either
It's not "does work until you prove me wrong or doesn't work until you prove me wrong..." There are currently no
that anyone's been able to link to that clarify how it works.
At this stage its still completely fiat and I have a strong suspicion the developers have left it that way on purpose considering the issue has been around unanswered since october of 2010....
As a player who primarily plays summoners this is an issue that I track doggedly and if I get a solid answer from any dev on it I'll be happy to link that answser to all 5 of the existing threads about the issue.
Until then what you have isn't RAI or RAW... Theres nothing written and thus theres also no interpretation of that word... What you have so far is an opinion or a fiat or a houserule because so far on this issue thats all anyone has.
That's fine, rule it however makes sense to you and works for the group. Since the developers don't appear to want to address the issue, it's up to the GM.
For myself, I don't treat an eidolon as different from any other summoned monster except where stated in the rules text, and I long ago decided that creatures came with their listed objects and left exactly the same way. It created the fewest problems. The in-game justification is a bit involved, and I won't dwell on it here.
I try not to think about summoned creatures eating before dismissal, but if my players decide to make that happen then I hope they brought cleaning supplies.