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So there is one guy at our bi-weekly Pathfinder Society games, call him Chuck, who's a bit of a problem. Every third sentence out of Chuck's mouth is the kind of comment about women that makes you cringe. If they were racist comments I don't think it would be tolerated, but since he limits his screed to the other 50% of humanity, it mostly seems to be ignored.
Thing is, we used to have a woman gamer or two that came to the games. I don't know for a fact that Chuck's 'humor' made them uncomfortable coming, but it isn't to hard to imagine that is the case.
Has anyone else had a to deal with a 'Chuck'? Any suggestions on how to handle the guy?
Actually women make up 53% of the world's population... but that does not matter. I would say to "chuck" it is insensitive to address another human being in such a way.
You have to treat him as you would any other problem, ask him to stop... if it continues, you must ask him to leave.
pull him to the side and talk with him away from other people and let him see your points. Do not attack him verbally in front of others if possible, he may simply not understand how insulting his comments are... give him the chance to regain his dignity and he will likely apologize to the ladies if he is a good person.
thats it in a nut shell.
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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You confront him directly in a private setting, tell him the comments are not friendly or welcoming, and ask him to please refrain, because he is driving away players.
If that doesn't work or you are uncomfortable with it, talk to your local VC or VL, or to the location manager where the game is hosted. Store owners and the like don't like potential customers driven away because of a jerk.
Finally, if none of that works, email me and we will talk about further resolutions and options.
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We have a Chuck at our local lodge. I won't sit at a table that he is at. The VL knows he is a problem. Many people have complained. Still, he's there every week, and I need to plan my registration around his. We use warhorn to sign up, and on more than one occasion now have I had to withdraw from a table and try to find another one because Chuck signed up for the same table after I did.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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We have a Chuck at our local lodge. I won't sit at a table that he is at. The VL knows he is a problem. Many people have complained. Still, he's there every week, and I need to plan my registration around his. We use warhorn to sign up, and on more than one occasion now have I had to withdraw from a table and try to find another one because Chuck signed up for the same table after I did.Email me please. mike.brock@paizo.com
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I had someone at one of my tables use a similarly negative insult against an NPC that I knew could've offended people, though I'm pretty sure nobody cared, and it was in character.
He did it repeatedly though, and I had to privately ask him not to say it, I explained why, and said it was good practice to avoid that kind of language even if nobody was actually offended. He was a bit thrown off but accepted it and apologised to the table anyway. I didn't expect an apology, just that he'd stop saying it (especially over and over).
I wasn't even really sure whether to address it or not because doing so actually slightly threw off the flow of the game and nobody there was affected (and I knew that was likely to happen) - I can only hope that it stems it from happening at other tables where someone might be affected by it.
Sidenote: funnily enough, it was the EXACT same scenario that came up that I had to roleplay when I was doing GM 101 locally!
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I think sexism can be a lot more subtle than "Chuck". Many roleplayers just never realize it. How many male GMs have you encountered who resort to using female NPCs as bar servants, and male NPCs as Captains of the Guard?
One of the reasons I love the Golarion setting is the equal roles that male and female NPCs are given. If you ever do need to pull someone aside and have this sort of chat with them, be sure to include that in your discussion. Pathfinder isn't just an evolution of D&D's rules, it's an evolution on social inclusion from the more male-centered era that D&D was founded during.
This same idea should extend to homophobic comments and behavior as well, however subtle they may be.
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Personally, I get really sick of male players who have surprised and rude reactions to female Pathfinder heroes who have a strength score above 15. No, the world of Golarion doesn't subscribe to your lectures about muscle and hormonal differences and yes, Amiri could break your arm IRL within about 18 seconds. Best show some respect to the martial ladies.
I'd suggest speaking with him as others have said. If he gives you flak, I'd get some other guys to back you up. I don't mean in any threatening sense, but more in the: hey dude, we're your peers and this just isn't cool, sense.
It's a sad thing but I've noticed that when a woman speaks up regarding these issues, there's a good chance she's brushed aside.
This is one of the main reasons that is so important for guys to speak up to other guys. It isn't because women can't; it's because there are some cases where the Chuck is more likely to listen if it's another guy speaking to him. This may not be the case here; you won't know until speaking with him.
I've run into this case at least twice in the gaming realm in the last five or six years. In the first, that version of Chuck was a little confused and seemed to think that any female speaking to him was great, no matter the topic. In other words, everything was an invitation. The second was actually a writer for some 3PPs...though so far as I can tell, he'd only ever written one thing the last I had checked.
The first seemed incredibly socially awkward, older, and with outdated preconceptions. The second was just unpleasant.
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Speaking on topic, I have found that simply making an attempt to privately and politely ask someone to shape up a bit almost always works. Most people aren't trying to be a dickwad. Sometimes they don't even recognize they are behaving poorly. Our society has just raised us to avoid any and all confrontation whenever possible, so a lot of people will just grit and bear it rather than speak. Chances are good that your solution is a simple 30 second conversation away.
To touch on Nefreet's points, I am also guilty of not using woman NPCs often in my home games. For me, this has nothing to do with gender roles or sexism - I am just not very convincing in a womanly role, nor is it perfectly comfortable for me. You will not find my playing any female PCs. I love a lady at the table kicking ass with the rest of us as much as anyone though, so inequality is not a factor in my eyes.
I think sexism can be a lot more subtle than "Chuck". Many roleplayers just never realize it. How many male GMs have you encountered who resort to using female NPCs as bar servants, and male NPCs as Captains of the Guard?
<snip>
This same idea should extend to homophobic comments and behavior as well, however subtle they may be.
Agreed. And while the obvious stuff like the previously mentioned 'Chucks' can be readily dealt with in the ways Mike suggested, the more subtle ones are a bit harder.
Where is the line between subtle sexism (or any other -ism) and being oversensitive? I don't know, but I do know the line is different for different people.
Sometimes the person just doesn't know any better and can be educated. Sometimes not. Personally, when I run into subtle sexism, I find that 'out-playing' them can be an effective (and equally subtle) response.
And yes, issues of sexism, insensitivity, and -phobia apply just as much to LGBT folks.
When you open up the game to the public anyone can come.
This includes jerks(sexism, bullies, racists, and whatever). This does not make me sad. It is expected.
The rules are built to mitigate people being jerks. There are a ton of PFS rules that are made specifically to prevent people from being jerks. In home games you do not have these same rules.
I am surprised about how people generally get along face to face so well.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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When you open up the game to the public anyone can come.I was under the impression that this wasn't the case. There is nothing forcing you to accept everyone who comes through the door.
A public game means you give everyone the benefit of the doubt to begin with. However if someone proves that they can't or won't play well with others (by ignoring warnings and the like), then the VO/Organizer can ask them to leave and/or ban them from future games if necessary.
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with probably some caveat about not being able to discriminate based on race, religion, sexual orientation or gunslinger status.
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you had to throw in gunslinger didn't you..... grrr :P
I agree with Mystic Lemur. Those offended need to just speak up and let this "chuck" know how they feel about the comments. We are supposed to be conducting ourselves like grown-ups. Goofy and sometimes crude humor aside when someone drifts too far into the offensive these actions need to be nipped in the bud.
Pulling someone aside for "the sit down" just seems unneeded. "Hey man, cut the junk" works much better. If it continues then the hosting venue will just need to not let them back in. We hate to lose the customers/players but in the long run this "chuck" will be worse for business if allowed to continue his antics.
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I'm actually of the opposite opinion to the prevailing one. Pulling him aside is required at this point. "Hey, cut it out," may get the behaviour to stop (either for the time being, or completely) but it trivializes the behaviour. If sexism and racism could be addressed by bystanders just saying, "Hey, stop that," we'd have a much more egalitarian society.
Public shaming doesn't work, so don't make a big deal of it at the table. But at the end of the night, pull him aside and say, clearly but firmly, "You were making comments here that are sexist and hurtful. I did not want to interrupt the flow of the game or embarrass you publicly tonight, but next time I hear you speaking that garbage at my table, I will tell you to leave. There is no place for those kinds of words or sentiments in PFS. I will be speaking with the coordinator so that they know my concerns as well."
Brook no discussion or argument. "But it was in-character! But it was a joke!" - Doesn't matter. Response: "I have explained my feelings to you, and why your words were inappropriate. There is no justification that is enough to balance or excuse the things you were saying. If you have a problem with that, then I suggest you find somewhere else to play."
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Maybe I'm just weird, but what kind of idiot doesn't moderate their actions based on who they're with?
We curb the language when kids are at the table, I won't play Mayim when some of our more, reserved, players are there. I tone down Ksenia's (blatent) racism, Dexios' or Kodiak's preaching, etc.
Yeah, if Chuck is offending people you tell him. Bluntly.
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you had to throw in gunslinger didn't you..... grrr :P
Are we still allowed to call them 'gunslingers'? Isn't the more PC term 'firearm afficionado'?
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Personally speaking, I understand the reasons for wanting to take him aside, but I'd rather see more people say, "Please don't engage in that kind of language/humor at my table," in public.
When you're the only woman at the table, and that sort of humor is going around, it's easy to assume that the silence of the other men at the table is tacit approval of it, and to feel isolated by it. If the comments are enough to actually trip my radar, my default is to speak up if I have the energy, or to simply not come back again if I don't, but there's also often a sense of really having to pick your battles.
Men at the table who've spoken up, on the other hand, have showed me that I'm not alone, that I have allies and recourse, and that I'm playing with one sexist jerk, not a table of them. You don't have to shame the guy or be angry about it -- a polite but firm indication that you're not comfortable with it, followed by moving on immediately, has usually been sufficient to discourage the behavior, let other people know it's not okay, and let members of the group targeted by it know that they're supported, in my experience, and that if something is making them uncomfortable, they can bring it up or at least go to the GM and know that they're not going to get dismissed out of hand.
I agree with Ms. Price. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men(as in humans) do nothing." Edmund burk.
If you leave this type of attitude open int he air than it sets a presidence. Also it is shown that showcasing behavior and beliefs can shift others in that same attitude. If someone is strong enough to step up and say that they do not appreciate that type of behavior than you will also influence the people around that it not right either.
Although I understand and fully accept the answer of not coming back to an ignorant table, I would say to let them know why you are not coming back. The ignorance may not be willfull and thus you may save the next person trying their table.
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I find it amusing that this post is dedicated to the idea of how unacceptable sexism at the gaming table is yet we still have art that screams of sexism (Look at a Pic of Seoni or Amiri. Obviously drawn to attract the male eye).
I think its a little hypocritical to complain about the sexist behavior of some players while overlooking the sexism inherent in the game itself.
Even more fun, take a look at some of the art out there. Such as Art relating to Pathfinder on Deviant art. Ask yourself these questions: shouldnt a characters stats and Traits be reflected in their appearance along with race and gender? Why is it that almost every female in fantasy is drawn to be attractive, even if their actual stats dont reflect that? How often do you see players with unattractive characters? especially female characters?
While I appreciate Andrei Buters point that females can have a strength of above 15 in Path Finder I do have to point out that theres a little problem with that point of view. Suspension of Disbelief.
Its very important to a story that the audience not break from that story, never stop and think 'hold on... that cant be right'. Something like female characters being just as strong as male ones can break suspension of disbelief, especially if its common, simply because it just doesn't happen all that often in the real world.
Once Suspension of Disbelief is broken it can lead to a whole truck load of problems, such as the PC questioning the events of the story or their trust in you as a GM.
Personally I say know your audience, know what they like and dislike and cater to them. If you find that you have little in common with a player or game, try another group or game.
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I find it amusing that this post is dedicated to the idea of how unacceptable sexism at the gaming table is yet we still have art that screams of sexism (Look at a Pic of Seoni or Amiri. Obviously drawn to attract the male eye).
I think its a little hypocritical to complain about the sexist behavior of some players while overlooking the sexism inherent in the game itself.
Even more fun, take a look at some of the art out there. Such as Art relating to Pathfinder on Deviant art. Ask yourself these questions: shouldnt a characters stats and Traits be reflected in their appearance along with race and gender? Why is it that almost every female in fantasy is drawn to be attractive, even if their actual stats dont reflect that? How often do you see players with unattractive characters? especially female characters?
While I appreciate Andrei Buters point that females can have a strength of above 15 in Path Finder I do have to point out that theres a little problem with that point of view. Suspension of Disbelief.
Its very important to a story that the audience not break from that story, never stop and think 'hold on... that cant be right'. Something like female characters being just as strong as male ones can break suspension of disbelief, especially if its common, simply because it just doesn't happen all that often in the real world.
Once Suspension of Disbelief is broken it can lead to a whole truck load of problems, such as the PC questioning the events of the story or their trust in you as a GM.
Personally I say know your audience, know what they like and dislike and cater to them. If you find that you have little in common with a player or game, try another group or game.
is cosmo designed to attract the male eye? Maybe some women enjoy the portrayal of an attractive female character. I do not see any issue with very strong female characters, i have seen farm girls that are scary strong. My problem is the petite 110 lbs have 18+ str. Of course i apply that to scrawny male characters too.
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I find it amusing that this post is dedicated to the idea of how unacceptable sexism at the gaming table is yet we still have art that screams of sexism (Look at a Pic of Seoni or Amiri. Obviously drawn to attract the male eye).
I think its a little hypocritical to complain about the sexist behavior of some players while overlooking the sexism inherent in the game itself.
Even more fun, take a look at some of the art out there. Such as Art relating to Pathfinder on Deviant art. Ask yourself these questions: shouldnt a characters stats and Traits be reflected in their appearance along with race and gender? Why is it that almost every female in fantasy is drawn to be attractive, even if their actual stats dont reflect that? How often do you see players with unattractive characters? especially female characters?
While I appreciate Andrei Buters point that females can have a strength of above 15 in Path Finder I do have to point out that theres a little problem with that point of view. Suspension of Disbelief.
Its very important to a story that the audience not break from that story, never stop and think 'hold on... that cant be right'. Something like female characters being just as strong as male ones can break suspension of disbelief, especially if its common, simply because it just doesn't happen all that often in the real world.
Once Suspension of Disbelief is broken it can lead to a whole truck load of problems, such as the PC questioning the events of the story or their trust in you as a GM.
Personally I say know your audience, know what they like and dislike and cater to them. If you find that you have little in common with a player or game, try another group or game.
1: For every ridiculously attractive iconic, there is at least 1 normal looking iconic. Seelah, Lini, Kyra, Reiko and the inquisitor vs Seoni, Merisiel, Alahazra, and Amiri (and really, I kinda disagree about Amiri)
2: Stats have little to do with appearance; in fact I'd say that the only stat that matters to appearance is strength, and that only determines how heavily muscled you are.
3: So you are saying that you can suspend your disbelief in regards to magic, fantasy races and the like, but not more than one woman in a party with a strength score of better than 15?
4: Sometimes the game where "you have little in common with a player" is the only game available. What then?
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I find it amusing that this post is dedicated to the idea of how unacceptable sexism at the gaming table is yet we still have art that screams of sexism (Look at a Pic of Seoni or Amiri. Obviously drawn to attract the male eye).
I think its a little hypocritical to complain about the sexist behavior of some players while overlooking the sexism inherent in the game itself.
You're totally right, dude. The existence of some scantily-clad fictional female characters is absolutely an excuse to abuse actual women trying to play a game and enjoy themselves.
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You're totally right, dude. The existence of some scantily-clad fictional female characters is absolutely an excuse to abuse actual women trying to play a game and enjoy themselves.I find it amusing that this post is dedicated to the idea of how unacceptable sexism at the gaming table is yet we still have art that screams of sexism (Look at a Pic of Seoni or Amiri. Obviously drawn to attract the male eye).
I think its a little hypocritical to complain about the sexist behavior of some players while overlooking the sexism inherent in the game itself.
No where in his comment did be state that.
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He didn't state it explicitly. It's certainly the implication, however. It's a perfect example of derailing the conversation with false equivalence -- attempting to shift the conversation away from the actual topic (how to handle sexism at gaming tables) onto a different topic entirely.
If he'd like to start a different thread to talk about objectification in Pathfinder art, he's welcome to do so. What's he's not welcome to do is attempt to shut down the discussion about making gaming spaces more welcoming for women by trying to change the subject.
No where in his comment did be state that.You're totally right, dude. The existence of some scantily-clad fictional female characters is absolutely an excuse to abuse actual women trying to play a game and enjoy themselves.I find it amusing that this post is dedicated to the idea of how unacceptable sexism at the gaming table is yet we still have art that screams of sexism (Look at a Pic of Seoni or Amiri. Obviously drawn to attract the male eye).
I think its a little hypocritical to complain about the sexist behavior of some players while overlooking the sexism inherent in the game itself.
Well there was the whole section about strong women breaking his suspension of disbelief. Not sure what gym his local PFS meets at but the idea of any of us playing characters with positive STR or CON modifiers is a lil suspension of disbelief breaky*.
* Unless you've got a Cheetos based metric, then we're champions. OM NOM NOM.
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He didn't state it explicitly. It's certainly the implication, however. It's a perfect example of derailing the conversation with false equivalence -- attempting to shift the conversation away from the actual topic (how to handle sexism at gaming tables) onto a different topic entirely.
If he'd like to start a different thread to talk about objectification in Pathfinder art, he's welcome to do so. What's he's not welcome to do is attempt to shut down the discussion about making gaming spaces more welcoming for women by trying to change the subject.
Again, please realize this your *opinion* of what someone else intending to do. Certainly not everyone believes he was implying scantily clad art gives anyone the right to abuse female gamers at the table. That's just ludicrous.
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I find it amusing that this post is dedicated to the idea of how unacceptable sexism at the gaming table is yet we still have art that screams of sexism (Look at a Pic of Seoni or Amiri. Obviously drawn to attract the male eye).
The visual content of any media is not tacit permission to abuse or degrade people in real life, nor is it an excuse to not focus on the topic of harassment in the play space.
That said, yes, Seoni and Alhazra are scantily-clad. Some women like to dress that way. Imrijka and Seelah are dressed to break bones and not much else. Reiko and Kyra cover up. Amiri and Lirianne dress a little sassy but still aim to bust some heads. We specifically try to show a wide variety of personalities (including fashion sensibilities) in our characters, so we have characters for female fans who like to feel sexy to empathize with, and we have characters for female fans who like to dress utilitarian to empathize with. And I can tell you very plainly that the women at Paizo can and have put or feet down before and will doso again regarding our depictions of women. I think the female Trox in Bestiary 4 is a prime example of that.
A big goal of Pathfinder art and writing is to steer away from the idea that women should all be one thing, whether that one thing is sexpots or soldiers.
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I'm not too fond of the slutshaming angle either. Not-sexist doesn't equal sex-negative.
Absolutely agreed. I'm just fed up that every time people who get that this stuff (that is, ways in which gaming can be exclusionary to women, people of color, etc., as well as plenty of straight white men who are made uncomfortable by sexism/racism/etc.) is sometimes a problem and want to talk with other people with good intentions about how to make it less of a problem, people show up claiming it isn't a problem, or it can't be fixed because $REASONS, or people are just oversensitive, etcetera ad infinitum et nauseum.
You know what? You want to have all those arguments? Fine. Go do it somewhere else. Your opinions don't give you the right to make it impossible for people who believe it is a problem and want to discuss ways to help solve it to have a logistics discussion.
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Maybe I'm just weird, but what kind of idiot doesn't moderate their actions based on who they're with?
The kind who grow up with very little social interaction and are often drawn to fantasy RPGs. ;-)
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Again, please realize this your *opinion* of what someone else intending to do. Certainly not everyone believes he was implying scantily clad art gives anyone the right to abuse female gamers at the table. That's just ludicrous.He didn't state it explicitly. It's certainly the implication, however. It's a perfect example of derailing the conversation with false equivalence -- attempting to shift the conversation away from the actual topic (how to handle sexism at gaming tables) onto a different topic entirely.
If he'd like to start a different thread to talk about objectification in Pathfinder art, he's welcome to do so. What's he's not welcome to do is attempt to shut down the discussion about making gaming spaces more welcoming for women by trying to change the subject.
Kyle, he kind of did.
What he said is:
"I find it hypocritical that you are criticising sexism at the table, yet ignoring sexism in the art in pathfinder."
Parsing this it breaks down into:
You play pathfinder.
Therefore, you are accepting the sexism in the art (note that he assumes we are ignoring the sexism in the work)
If you accept the sexism in the art, but criticise the sexism at the table, you are a hypocrite. (I dispute the truth value of this statement, but it is what he said.)
Therefore, if you criticize the sexism at the table, you are a hypocrite, and therefore in the wrong.
Now, that may not be what he intended to do. But it *is* what he said.
We can have a separate discussion in a separate thread about whether this a a dis-empowering tactic, a lack of self awarenes, or a ingrained defensiveness. (well, you can, I'm not terribly interested in that discussion honestly.)
Now can we get back to the fact that overt sexist statements and less overt sexism at the table are a serious problem that can drive a sizable part of the community away, and need to be dealt with?
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Again that's an opinion and probably an over analysis of what he said. I read it more as him being upset that people are willing to focus on the actions of one person who is being sexist when the entire game and genre is loaded with artwork, characters and situations that most reasonable people would find sexist or degrading. Instead of looking at one piece, we should focus on the whole.
Thread distraction? Certainly, but advocating the abuse of women because of Seoni's outfit? Of course not.
He also states that 15+ female characters breaks his view of a fantasy setting. I have different belief about that, but it's still his view and one to which he is entitled to have no matter how much I disagree with it.
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While I appreciate Andrei Buters point that females can have a strength of above 15 in Path Finder I do have to point out that theres a little problem with that point of view. Suspension of Disbelief.Its very important to a story that the audience not break from that story, never stop and think 'hold on... that cant be right'. Something like female characters being just as strong as male ones can break suspension of disbelief, especially if its common, simply because it just doesn't happen all that often in the real world.
Dude, my character carries 50 vials around in her pockets and NEVER picks the wrong one in the heat of battle. The other one can seriously just wade into a company of soldiers, with nothing but a sword and her nightie and kill everyone, emerging basically unharmed. But high Strength for female characters is what breaks your SoD? Get over yourself.
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Again that's an opinion and probably an over analysis of what he said. I read it more as him being upset that people are willing to focus on the actions of one person who is being sexist when the entire game and genre is loaded with artwork, characters and situations that most reasonable people would find sexist or degrading. Instead of looking at one piece, we should focus on the whole.
Thread distraction? Certainly, but advocating the abuse of women because of Seoni's outfit? Of course not.
He also states that 15+ female characters breaks his view of a fantasy setting. I have different belief about that, but it's still his view and one to which he is entitled to have no matter how much I disagree with it.
This is exactly what I mean. I do apologize for distracting you from the main topic of discussion.