Ok, what do you think is the worst weapon in Ultimate Equipment?
How do a make a build that works at least fairly well with that crummy weapon?
Ah well the subject seemed entertaining to me. Maybe I just need some more sleep. :)
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You mean mechanically inferior, or one of the many Exotic Weapons that aren't worth a feat? There's a difference between the two, and either one usually works pretty well in a 2-Handed Fighter's hands (as long as it's not a light weapon.)
The Dazzling Display with a Blowgun idea was always one I've thrown around, though it required Rapid Reload to be house-ruled to be an option for it to be somewhat functional.
Not specified. If you think an exotic weapon is the worst, then let's make a build to use it at least semi-effectively. If you think a simple weapon is the worst, we can give that a go.
Any thrown weapon.
Actually owing to blinkback belts, throwing weapons aren't that awful. I have a pretty successful fighter/paladin who uses throwing weapons to good effect.
I'd say trying to make something useful based on a crossbow would be a tough row to hoe. I've tried fiddling with such things in Herolab, and I've never managed one which really didn't come up short.
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Unless something I'm unaware of has modified this condition, you only ever get one attack a round when using thrown weapons. Thats what makes them suck. As far as I'm aware, nothing overcomes that limitation. It might be fine below level 6, but after that its untenable.
At least with a crossbow and rapid reload you can make more than 1 attack.
Hmm, never saw that bit before. That really screws those over big time. Guess I better retire the character before I get called on that.
Of course, but if the above rule apples and all throws are at least standard actions, you're really hosed.
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Claxon the sentence you highlighted only pertains to the sentence before it. It is a continuation of rules for throwing weapons not designed to be thrown. So any weapon with a range increment can be thrown with iterative attacks.
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.Unless something I'm unaware of has modified this condition, you only ever get one attack a round when using thrown weapons. Thats what makes them suck. As far as I'm aware, nothing overcomes that limitation. It might be fine below level 6, but after that its untenable.
At least with a crossbow and rapid reload you can make more than 1 attack.
Normally, you are limited to a single thrown attack, due to the requirement that drawing a weapon is a move action. However, the feat Quick Draw does allow you to use all your iterative attacks.
You can draw weapons faster than most.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
For further evidence to my point the last sentence in the quoted paragraph refers to all range increments for "such weapons" being ten feet. If that pertained to all range weapons why would they give any of them range increments. The part of the paragraph that follows "you can thrown weapons that weren't designed to be thrown..." All pertains to that clause of rules and not ranged weapons in general.
Phew, I was rather attached to the thrower really. He does, of course, have quickdraw (and a blinkback belt).
As well, there are ranged weapons that are not under the light, one-handed or two-handed categories.
Examples are: Darts, Javelins, Chakrams.
I'm not sure about daggers and such, since the text is somewhat unclear as to what all takes that penalty but the above are exceptions to that rule.
Phew, I was rather attached to the thrower really. He does, of course, have quickdraw (and a blinkback belt).
dont need either if you throw arrows! since theyre already a free action to draw, cheap as all get-out to buy or enchant, and buying durable arrows for 1g more means they dont break when you use them! they've even got improv weapon stats! and since youve got a quiver full of them, you dont need to get a blinkback belt--use it on a STR and/or DEX belt instead (or a belt of (possibly greater) mighty hurling for much the same effect)!
Are arrows legally allowed to be thrown? I think I would (in a home game) rule that as excessively cheesy since they are not meant for that purpose, and require the velocity from the bow to get that sort of damage.
theyve got a range increment in their improv section iirc, and Throw Anything does just that--lets you throw ANYTHING (that you can feasably lift/carry).
there's been talks of someone with muleback cords, a greater belt of mighty hurling, and those rage powers for throwing big things a la hulking hurler (though not as broken). hurl BOULDERS at folks. or combine with body bludgeon for added hilarity.
someone complains you dont have boulders on-hand? ground breaker power. boulders everywhere now.
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Are arrows legally allowed to be thrown? I think I would (in a home game) rule that as excessively cheesy since they are not meant for that purpose, and require the velocity from the bow to get that sort of damage.
i will bet you money i can throw a "real" arrow at you hard enough to kill you at ten paces.
Are arrows legally allowed to be thrown? I think I would (in a home game) rule that as excessively cheesy since they are not meant for that purpose, and require the velocity from the bow to get that sort of damage.i will bet you money i can throw a "real" arrow at you hard enough to kill you at ten paces.
OK, let me get a suit of full plate and then you can give it a shot.
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OK, let me get a suit of full plate and then you can give it a shot.Are arrows legally allowed to be thrown? I think I would (in a home game) rule that as excessively cheesy since they are not meant for that purpose, and require the velocity from the bow to get that sort of damage.i will bet you money i can throw a "real" arrow at you hard enough to kill you at ten paces.
i can hit the ten ring with a throwing dagger at ten paces i know i could hit you in the face, so wear that armor because it doesnt invalidate my statement in the least.
Haven't you even seen full plate? You can get an arrow through an eye slit with me not standing still?
Or how about we make this more interesting, why don't you go out and try hunting a bear with your thrown arrow? I'll be nice and even a black bear will count. Good luck with that.
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Haven't you even seen full plate? You can get an arrow through an eye slit with me not standing still?
oh you're trying to apply logic to your counter argument, then that full plate also stops all slashing damage meaning your long sword wont work as well as any thrown weapon period, because that same full plate stops those in there tracks...
but back in pathfinder land these all still work. and i can kill you with a thrown arrow.
The Dire Flail. Is it mechanially the worst weapon? Probably not. But boy is it silly. As a joke, in our 17-20 campaign I threw a fighter in with a +3 Flaming/+3 Flaming version of that weapon. My mind's eye was shattered as I tried to imagine this warrior spinning around trying to kill people with it, while under the effects of a fly spell.
theyve got a range increment in their improv section iirc, and Throw Anything does just that--lets you throw ANYTHING (that you can feasably lift/carry).
there's been talks of someone with muleback cords, a greater belt of mighty hurling, and those rage powers for throwing big things a la hulking hurler (though not as broken). hurl BOULDERS at folks. or combine with body bludgeon for added hilarity.
someone complains you dont have boulders on-hand? ground breaker power. boulders everywhere now.
This might be amusing. You have any details on the build?
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Brass Knife? Fragile and no real gains, strictly worse than dagger, no good keywords you can try to exploit.
And you really can't; that is why it is the worst :).
But you can use THIS those. TWF, even. Just have to roll that 20.
oh you're trying to apply logic to your counter argument, then that full plate also stops all slashing damage meaning your long sword wont work as well as any thrown weapon period, because that same full plate stops those in there tracks...
but back in pathfinder land these all still work. and i can kill you with a thrown arrow.
A number of things here:
A) Big man arguments on the internet fail to impress anyone.B) Whether or not it is technically legal has no bearing on whether or not it is technically legal at my table.
C) I guess you don't like bear hunting
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The Dire Flail. Is it mechanially the worst weapon? Probably not. But boy is it silly. As a joke, in our 17-20 campaign I threw a fighter in with a +3 Flaming/+3 Flaming version of that weapon. My mind's eye was shattered as I tried to imagine this warrior spinning around trying to kill people with it, while under the effects of a fly spell.
I'm playing a half orc with a dire flail in a playtest right now...a slayer. It remains to be seen if he can be effective, but I think the slayer is the class for the job...and half orc, the race.
I still have troubles picturing it, though.
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I mean, it's got to be the freaking heavy crossbow, right?
Takes 2 hands.
You don't get to apply strength or dex to damage.
You have to blow 2 feats (Rapid Reload, Crossbow Mastery) to be able to iteratively attack with it.There's just nothing worse.
Any melee weapon that you can finesse, you can TWF and murder things with.
Any melee weapon that you can 2-hand, you can stack strength and murder things with.
Even thrown weapons, once you pack the quick draw feat tax and blinkback belt, you AT LEAST get to add your strength to damage. So you can do reasonable DPR.Hell, even the Crossbowman archetype sucks.
You can't do reasonable DPR with a heavy crossbow. It just sucks. I humbly submit that it is the worst weapon in the game to specialize in. I'll make a trade: Somebody else make an optimized heavy crossbow user, and demand that I prove that ANY WEAPON OF THEIR CHOICE is worse, and I will make a weapon user of their weapon that does higher DPR.
-Cross
Boffer sword?
As I said before, add double to that heavy crossbow and it gets even worse.
Claxon disagrees with everything I say. That being said, the Emei Piercer is the worst (non-monk) weapon in the Ultimate Equipment. Other horrible weapons include net, lasso, double crossbow, and mere club.
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The Emei Piercer would work well with a person who is great at roleplaying. Someone who is trying to play a diplomat/spy/assassin (who also has poison use) could easily hide the poisoned 'thumb tac on a ring' by flipping the back side up on their hand, walk right in, shake some poor saps hand, and poison them.
Anything focusing on crossbows or thrown weapons.
Anything focusing on crossbows or thrown weapons.
barbarian, throw anything feat (possibly form alchemist dip for mutagen strength boosting), charging hurler+hurling charge (feat and rage power), two-handed thrower (feat), the hurling rage power line, muleback cords, and a belt of mighty hurling (greater, eventually).
throw large boulders at folks for lotsa damage via falling object damage + your massive strength. greater belt gives them the returning property so you never run out of ammo (if for some reason rocks arent available) more fun combined with body bludgeon to throw PEOPLE at folks for lotsa damage.
or viking fighter with the same as above as well as pick up (greater) weapon focus/specialization (rock)
your weapon of choice? a +X impact(2) furious(1) courageous(1) large-sized rock. you can lift it via huge strength score (+rage, +mutagen possibly) and muleback cords. keep it in extradimensional storage when not in use. or just grab a feather token (anchor) and swing a pilowcase full of them at people.
If you wanna get fancy, have your party wizard blow up a mountain--or just cast "locate object" for a large-sized chunk of raw adamantine or mithral, and then excavate it--and use THAT with the above enchants, though folks may try to steal the bejesus out of that.
Anything focusing on crossbows or thrown weapons.barbarian, throw anything feat (possibly form alchemist dip for mutagen strength boosting), charging hurler+hurling charge (feat and rage power), two-handed thrower (feat), the hurling rage power line, muleback cords, and a belt of mighty hurling (greater, eventually).
throw large boulders at folks for lotsa damage via falling object damage + your massive strength. greater belt gives them the returning property so you never run out of ammo (if for some reason rocks arent available) more fun combined with body bludgeon to throw PEOPLE at folks for lotsa damage.
or viking fighter with the same as above as well as pick up (greater) weapon focus/specialization (rock)
Still not a good build, IMHO. Too many resources spent for a underwhelming effect. The Belt of Mighty Hurling alone cripples the build. It's an expensive item that occupies the same slot of Belts of Str/Dex/Con.
It might be a playable build (in a "it's not completely worthless" sense), but it's not an effective one.
eh, it adds +4 strength as part of the belt, and there's ioun stones if you need stat increases (2 sets of +6 dex/con ioun stones is cheaper than a +6 str/dex/con belt, iirc). courageous enchant and rage/greater rage/mighty rage add a lot to your physical stats as-is.
you can forgoe the belt altogether really, since the hurler rage powers give it a range increment, and returning isnt all that important.
Anything focusing on crossbows or thrown weapons.barbarian, throw anything feat (possibly form alchemist dip for mutagen strength boosting), charging hurler+hurling charge (feat and rage power), two-handed thrower (feat), the hurling rage power line, muleback cords, and a belt of mighty hurling (greater, eventually).
throw large boulders at folks for lotsa damage via falling object damage + your massive strength. greater belt gives them the returning property so you never run out of ammo (if for some reason rocks arent available) more fun combined with body bludgeon to throw PEOPLE at folks for lotsa damage.
DM: You successfully grab an enemy!
Player: I throw him at a target!DM: What do you throw him at?
Player: My that enemy near the window!
DM: Uhh, roll it.
Player rolls.
DM: Ha, looks like you missed.
Player: He is still flying towards the window, though.
DM: Oh, thats right. What is the hardness for a window? 0? Hp 1? . . .
Player smirks.
DM: Well, he hits the window.