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Does having total concealment (such as from Invisibility) afford you any protection at all from AOE effects?
This seems obvious when you take into account effects like Fireball, which fill an area. Whether or not the caster can see you has little bearing on if the fire hits you or not. But with spells like Black Tentacles it is a little less obvious. The spell requires a CMB check against the targets CMD, but it only requires a single check and it applies it to every target in the area. Additionally it is not a creature, has no eyes, and is for all intents and purposes the same as Fireball from the caster's perspective.
So would an invisible creature get the benefits of concealment against Black Tentacles because it requires an attack roll, but not against Fireball because it doesn't? What if the caster has See Invisibility? How does that affect the spell in any way when there is basically no aiming required for it to take effect?
I can't find any hard evidence that being invisible does or does not afford you any protection from AOE abilities and I am inclined to say it does not.
If anyone knows a specific rule on this matter I would appreciate the help finding it! Thanks!
Concealment? No.
Total cover? It can depending on the spell type.
Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
Emphasis mine. Black Tentacles is an area spread spell, so based on the above the fact that you can't see the target is irrelevant.
Now it's also bit of an oddball spell because the 'cast' does not require a targeted roll but the effect does. The spell would affect an invisible creature because as an area spell it does not care about concealment. But because it requires an attack roll to actually grapple the target, I'd rule that the attack roll would still be subject to the miss chance granted by concealment.
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From the core book about performing a combat maneuver:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
Thus per RAW, Black Tentacles would have to roll for concealment (unless they change it to state that the tentacles have blind sight/true seeing or something similar that allows them to detect all targets).
From the core book about performing a combat maneuver:
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.Thus per RAW, Black Tentacles would have to roll for concealment (unless they change it to state that the tentacles have blind sight/true seeing or something similar that allows them to detect all targets).
This is the issue. The spell requires a Combat Maneuver Check which would normally allow for a miss chance if the target has concealment. In this case however, the CM is being performed by a spell which is not a creature. It has no eyes, nor does it have a perception score. So does it rely on the sight of the caster? If so, would Black Tentacles not be able to be used against a target around a corner if it were caught in the area?
-Black Tentacles is a spell which affects an area.
-The effect of that spell is to require a Combat Maneuver against everyone in the area (Including the caster).
-Combat Maneuvers allow for miss chance if the target has concealment against the person performing the maneuver.
-Does an invisible person have concealment against Black Tentacles?
-What if the caster has See Invisibility? Does that matter?
No, the spell does not require a roll.
If you cast the spell on an area where there are no creatures, a bunch of black tentacles still burrow up from the ground - but then they just wave around and don't do anything.
So the effect of the spell is to summon a bunch of tentacles. What the tentacles do after that is not part of the spell itself (any more than the attacks caused by a creature brought up using Summon Monster are considered spell 'attacks').
If a creature has concealment, then by RAW an attack roll (that does not state otherwise) has a miss chance. So assuming that the black tentacles know that the invisible creature is there, they can attempt to grapple them with the standard concealment miss chance.
The only real question here is whether or not the tentacles inherently 'know' that an invisible creature is in the area.
Personally, I would argue that since the spell is an area spread spell, the tentacles would spring into existence knowing that the invisible creature was there. They would then make their grapple check, with the standard miss chance for concealment.
On that, though, I'll admit there's gray area.
The spell does not summon anything. It is not a full round action like summon monster and the tentacles do not act completely under the casters control like summoned monsters. They make a CMB check against everyone in their area (including the caster), and if the check succeeds against a creature it gains the grappled condition.
If Black Tentacles were a creature it would need certain stats to continue functioning and it would be targetable by attacks. The spell effect cannot be targeted, cannot "see" as a creature would and cannot perform any action of its own free will other than grappling creatures that end up in its area of effect. It lacks HP, AC, saves and stats. It is definitely not a summoned creature and cannot be treated like one.
The spell does not summon anything. It is not a full round action like summon monster and the tentacles do not act completely under the casters control like summoned monsters. They make a CMB check against everyone in their area (including the caster), and if the check succeeds against a creature it gains the grappled condition.
If Black Tentacles were a creature it would need certain stats to continue functioning and it would be targetable by attacks. The spell effect cannot be targeted, cannot "see" as a creature would and cannot perform any action of its own free will other than grappling creatures that end up in its area of effect. It lacks HP, AC, saves and stats. It is definitely not a summoned creature and cannot be treated like one.
I apologize if I misstated; when I said it 'summoned' tentacles, it would have been more appropriate to say that it created them.
That said, Black Tentacles creates something physical. I don't that as debatable simply because of the school of the spell: It is a conjuration (creation) spell, the description of which specifically states, "...a creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates."
I simply used Summon Monster as a comparison. I could have as easily used, say, Flame Blade (which would have the same miss chance due to concealment, since it is a created weapon) but I wanted to stick to the conjuration school.
So the spell creates a number of physical tentacles; those tentacles attempt grapple checks; those attack rolls are subject to a miss chance due to concealment like any other. In those circumstances, it is treated exactly like the physical attacks performed by a summoned creature.
The fact that the tentacles were created by magic is irrelevant, as is the fact that they lack stats and are non-targetable. Whether or not they have sensory abilities (most specifically, the ability to sense invisible creatures) is still the only questionable thing I see here.
That's an excellent point, Kazaan, and the one that seems to make the most sense.
I would personally support an interpretation that the tentacles do not rely on vision and have some other form of perception. My main thought is that you actually conjure a thing that sits on the floor and has tentacle appendages. If you are in the area of the tentacles it can feel you and can then grapple you, of course this doesn't resolve anything for flying and this is more just how I prefer to imagine it.
Still, it would seem that Black Tentacles doesn't rely on normal perception for its attacks.
Every creature within the area of the spell is the target of a combat maneuver check made to grapple each round at the beginning of your turn, including the round that black tentacles is cast. Creatures that enter the area of effect are also automatically attacked. The tentacles do not provoke attacks of opportunity. When determining the tentacles' CMB, the tentacles use your caster level as their base attack bonus and receive a +4 bonus due to their Strength and a +1 size bonus. Roll only once for the entire spell effect each round and apply the result to all creatures in the area of effect.
If the tentacles succeed in grappling a foe, that foe takes 1d6+4 points of damage and gains the grappled condition. Grappled opponents cannot move without first breaking the grapple. All other movement is prohibited unless the creature breaks the grapple first. The black tentacles spell receives a +5 bonus on grapple checks made against opponents it is already grappling, but cannot move foes or pin foes. Each round that black tentacles succeeds on a grapple check, it deals an additional 1d6+4 points of damage. The CMD of black tentacles, for the purposes of escaping the grapple, is equal to 10 + its CMB.
The tentacles created by this spell cannot be damaged, but they can be dispelled as normal. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the tentacles last.
The spell does not say anything about how the attack is targeted. Only that it happens for "Every creature within the area of the spell". It states how the attack is made, i.e. CMB Grapple. The rules for CMB include dealing with concealment. Invisible grants total concealment unless something can bypass the invisibility. The tentacles do not state they bypass invisible, therefore the tentacles have a 50% miss chance vs. an invisible creature.
/cevah
** spoiler omitted **
The spell does not say anything about how the attack is targeted. Only that it happens for "Every creature within the area of the spell". It states how the attack is made, i.e. CMB Grapple. The rules for CMB include dealing with concealment. Invisible grants total concealment unless something can bypass the invisibility. The tentacles do not state they bypass invisible, therefore the tentacles have a 50% miss chance vs. an invisible creature.
/cevah
If we are to assume that sight-based concealment works on the tentacles we must assume the tentacles require a means of sight. If that is the case, there needs to be a clarification on whether or not that means of sight comes from them, or the caster. If it comes from the caster, would being around a corner from the caster provide concealment?
There clearly needs to be some clarification here, and I am inclined to side with Kazaan on this one. The logical conclusion is that they do not use sight-based methods to locate and attack their prey - they simply know the prey is there and attack, thus allowing them to ignore concealment which is a sight-based condition.