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Beside your position that what limit crating is the time needed to do it?
In all but Kingmaker for official Paizo APs (for 3PP, at least book 2 of Way of the Wicked has a lot of downtime), downtime is a precious commodity. Taking more than maybe a week of downtime per book is often a fail condition for an AP (Especially Rise of the Runelords and Carrion Crown).That is the default assumption of the game: Downtime is scarce. Changing that assumption may lead to imbalance, yes (though still doesn't bypass the wealth restriction). Changing a lot of core assumptions leads to imbalances though. If you only have one encounter a day, many classes going nova can be unbalancing, is a common one.
5 weeks of enchanting in 6 modules and 16-18 levels is very close to "you have no downtime", stating that that is a "default assumption of the game" is very misleading. That is a relatively common assumption in AP (but beside Kingmaker, at least Legacy of Fire has a 1 year hiatus between the first ans second module), but 1) APs aren't the only way to play, 2) several of them say that the GM can change the pace of the adventure.
BTW, Skull & Shackles, with movement limited to the speed of your ship, that, when not in combat, is a good location to enchant stuff, don't seem an AP where enchanting will be problematic.
That's a pretty big if.
It assumes you have a year (and some change) of downtime, which is less like downtime and more like retirement.
Exactly what you get at the end of the first AP of Legacy of Fire. And you should be level 5 at the end of Howl of the Carrion King.
Exactly what you need for Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Use official adventures as guidelines. Barring Kingmaker, time is a precious resource in APs. Sure, you can use the adventuring day thing to still craft...at half speed. And by the time you complete many of these items even at normal speed, the adventure could be OVER. A lot of APs take place within the span of a couple of months, or even less. That's less time than it takes to craft some bigger ticket items.
You are using AP as a benchmark, not "official adventures". The time between adventures, even linked ones as those set in Falcon hollow isn't always as pressing as in some of the AP.
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So essentially we have 1 guy in this thread that say that there is no time to enchant stuff beside some basic item. (5 week in 16 levels is almost nothing if the result is spread between the party members).
And then we have you that say that time is a limit.
But time is a limit only if the GM want to make it a limit. I have ad campaign spanning decades of character time. Long enough for characters to be interested in ways to prolong their life and keep their youthful vigor. Unless you are running an AP with some time constraint, there isn't always a new crisis the next week. Especially one of the right level for you.
If the week after you have attained level 13 a new monster that can be defeated only by level 13 character arise, what was it doing the week before? Slumbering?
Sometime you need more than a few days for the next menace to appear.
I take it as you couldn't find a post with that statement then...
I ask because downtime is not binary. There is in fact a balancing point between "there's no downtime ever" and "All right, you spend a year or two earning Magic capital and crafting items, I'll just put the metaplot on pause in the meantime". Of course if you go with the latter you're really not playing the traditional form of Pathfinder/D&D, you're playing Merchants & Smiths, an incredibly silly economy RPG loosely connected to Pathfinder. There's nothing wrong with playing an economy RPG mind you (not sure if you're familiar with it but I'm a big Patrician fan), but if that's really what you want to play you can find better game systems than PF.
You should also note that the downtime rules (including capital gain) from Ultimate Campaign is an optional ruleset like Words of Power (from UM) or Piecemeal Armor (from UC). If you're running a campaign where you can envision the Downtime rules creating problems or if your players are abusing the rule system, either accept the fact that it will change your game and adapt to it, or don't use it. When you get down to it you can use the profession skill to reflect downtime perfectly well.
The ultimate campaign rules can add the the ability of crafting to be a wealth multiplier
Argh no they don't based on your numbers from the previous page they increase your wealth linearly they do not multiply it that is not how math works
Nah, but really, what your combo lets you do is profit 71gp/day. That's cute, I guess. Instead of spending all day crafting, though, you could just lop off a couple of harmless 1HD goblin heads each day and make even more profit.
Casters actually buy those bracers? WhatIn your example the Sorcerer's "wasted spell" is also something he would already have taken ages ago because Mage Armor is pretty helpful for not dying. Sure, you don't need it anymore after you get +4 Bracers, but you need to survive the first ten levels first.
Give a sorcerer an arbitrary amount of downtime and an arbitrary amount of gold and he'll probably get around to it. Well, eventually.
...you're really not playing the traditional form of Pathfinder/D&D, you're playing Merchants & Smiths, an incredibly silly economy RPG loosely connected to Pathfinder.Your assertions are misplaced. A 'Merchants & Smith' accusation would be accurate if anyone here were trying to come up with a way that lets a character make unlimited wealth.
That was exactly what Diego was saying actually - that by using just over a year of downtime he could game downtime by using Magic capital to craft items at 25% of baseline cost and sell them at 50%, giving him an overhead of 25% of the item's value before living expenses. Here, I'll quote the relevant section.
Wealth is a limit.
Not really, if you are in a campaign with plenty of downtime.
Take the downtime rules from ultimate campaign, start making magic capital, then craft magic item that you sell.
You trade time for reduce cost in crafting magic items, so you end paying 1/4 of the price of the item to make it and you sell at half price (I would allow you to sell it at more than half price if you are managing a shop, but let's stick to the rules).
'Wealth is not a limit if I have enough downtime'.
Your accusation would also be accurate if any one had said that all someone has to do is sit around and churn out magical items. This isn't the case, just because an item has a 6 day crafting time or even a 30 day crafting time, trying to make it doesn't mean you're doing nothing but making your character a cash cow.
Actually, that was kind of what Diego was saying - that by spending a year of downtime crafting he could make a 25% overhead on whatever he's making, and by extension that wealth is not a limitation etc.
Since the side Diego and I are debating on is that this 'might' be too powerful, we're actually the ones trying to keep overpowered items from too easily ending up in peoples' hands. But no one here has made any statement that this allows infinite wealth or that a character will ultimately be more powerful by 20th-level ("Go find the quote, and if it isn't the specific quote, it invalidates anything you might possibly have to say!"). There are items that unbalance characters at certain levels, just because eventually at level 17 or higher they won't does not mean it isn't a concern.
Yeah, see above.
You trying to imply that anyone using a Craft feat is not playing a traditional game of Pathfinder/D&D is troubling, either that you actually feel that way or because you were making a dismissive accusation that clearly someone you disagree with must be unable to play DnD.
I've never implied anything of the sort - in fact the two groups I DM for at the moment both use crafting feats and they're very much playing traditional PF. However, I am stating clearly that a player who spends over a year of downtime crafting an item at 25% value (through acquiring Magic Capital through profession checks and/or running businesses) purely in order to sell that item to make a profit (gaming the crafting system in the process) might be straying a bit from the original premise of Pathfinder, yes. And frankly, I don't see how that's an insult, and accusation or particularly troubling.
But let me repeat myself for clarity - What I'm saying is this: Pathfinder is based around a series of premises. One of them is that you do not have an unlimited amount of wealth (see the WBL charts), and one is that you do not have an unlimited amount of downtime (see the downtime rules, various articles on how to avoid the 15 minute adventuring day, the fact that classes are balanced around having multiple encounters per day, and the vast majority of adventure paths).
(Diego, note that I'm saying "not unlimited downtime", not "no downtime")
If you stray from these premises, the game might and probably will run differently. That's not a flaw with the system, that's the result of you tinkering with it. If you pour sugar in your gas tank, odds are the car isn't going to run very long - That's not the car's fault.
Think of it like playing in a low-magic setting but you don't actually modify the classes, you just make magic items very rare. The first thing that happens is that anyone who doesn't have access to magic is screwed. Fighters rely on magic items to gain the buffs they need in order to compete with classes who get those buffs through their class mechanics - like paladins, rangers and to a lesser degree barbarians. Removing, say, boots of Flying, potions of Fly etc means that any class who can cast a flight spell on themselves is vastly more powerful than before.
The next thing that happens is that those classes who can't heal themselves have to take some rather long trips to the hospital every time they get dinged up. Again, fighters and rogues get hosed.
Then people start realizing that without magical weapons they have a hard time getting through magical damage reduction. This primarily punishes martial classes, but the ranger and the paladin can scrape by with the right spells. The Rogue or the Fighter? Not so much.
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But let's put all that aside for the moment. Your claim is that a 5th level (or 7th? 9th? You list a few different levels) character who dedicates his race, class, skills and feats to crafting can craft a Luck Blade, giving him access to a wish. Let's look closer at that.
I'm going to assume that your skill check results are correct and that the character you've sketched out really can make the skill check. That's fine.
Instead let's start with the most obvious problem, the price. The crafting cost of a Luck Blade with 1 wish is 43 835 GP.
I'll be comparing the price with WBL, scaling with levels. Keep in mind that WBL represents all of a character's gear - everything from the leather armor he started off with to the shiny sword he picked up in the crypt to the 7 potions of cure moderate wounds he found in the bandit fort down the road. WBL is not just a giant pile of gold, it's usually tied up in assets. Conversely if you don't spend WBL as you level up odds are very strong that you won't make it very high - especially since odds are you're a liability in and out of combat since your character focuses primarily on crafting a sword he can't afford.
The WBL states that a 5th level character should have approximately 10 500 GP So he's at 25% of the price needed to craft the blade. He can't afford it.
The WBL states that a 7th level character should have approximately 23 500 GP. So we're just above 50% of the amount needed. He can't afford it.
The WBL states that a 9th level character should have approximately 46 000 GP. Yay! We can afford it now! Unfortunately Ultimate Campaign specifices that a crafting feat should not give more than a 25% bonus to a single character's WBL - crafting the luck blade increased our WBL by 40% since it's actually worth 62 360 GP. So no, he can't afford it quite yet without breaking the guidelines put out in Ultimate Campaign.
The WBL states that a 10th level character should have approximately 62 000 GP. Yay! We're kinda sorta allowed to make the item now! We make the sword (assuming that we are allowed to spend the 30 odd days of downtime to craft it) and ta-da, we have access to a single wish and we also have a +2 sword with a +1 resistance bonus that lets us reroll one die once a day. This sword takes up 100.5% of our total wealth by level ~ .5 over the limit as I let the 360 gp that we went over budget slide.
And we now have the option to replicate a single 8th level spell, undo a single event of misfortune, gain a single +1 inherent bonus to an ability score, and so on.
And all it took was to level from levels 1 through 10, with a character build focusing on crafting, and investing no WBL as we leveled and every scrap of treasure we found was either gems or valuables priced at full value.
When we use the wish we suddenly lose about 65% of our WBL. We still have a +2 short sword worth 22 060 GP though.
So... You can reasonably expect to make a luck blade at level 10 by investing significant PC resources both on the build side and on the WBL side. You can make it earlier, but not without somehow tricking the WBL system - for instance the way Diego outlines by gaming the downtime system to make infinite wealth.
Disclaimer: I wrote this post at ridiculous o'clock so the percentage numbers might be slightly off and there might be excessive amounts of snark involved. If either snark or bad numbers are detected I apologize in advance.
If time and wealth is not a valid or relevant limitation/balancing point, the crafting feats really suck.
You spend a feat to be able to convert one irrelevant resource to another irrelevant resource, saving a bit of money by spending a bit of time, when you could have just bought the item and had the feat left for something else.
Diego Rossi: That's an issue with the newly published downtime rules (weren't those explicitly marked as optional rules? IDK, don't have UCa) and how they break the wealth by level, not an issue with crafting rules. Because instead of spending a year to craft a luckblade to get a wish, you could spend like 7 months and buy a scroll of wish.
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...you're really not playing the traditional form of Pathfinder/D&D, you're playing Merchants & Smiths, an incredibly silly economy RPG loosely connected to Pathfinder.Your assertions are misplaced. A 'Merchants & Smith' accusation would be accurate if anyone here were trying to come up with a way that lets a character make unlimited wealth.That was exactly what Diego was saying actually - that by using just over a year of downtime he could game downtime by using Magic capital to craft items at 25% of baseline cost and sell them at 50%, giving him an overhead of 25% of the item's value before living expenses. Here, I'll quote the relevant section.
Wealth is a limit.
Not really, if you are in a campaign with plenty of downtime.
Take the downtime rules from ultimate campaign, start making magic capital, then craft magic item that you sell.
You trade time for reduce cost in crafting magic items, so you end paying 1/4 of the price of the item to make it and you sell at half price (I would allow you to sell it at more than half price if you are managing a shop, but let's stick to the rules).'Wealth is not a limit if I have enough downtime'.
Your accusation would also be accurate if any one had said that all someone has to do is sit around and churn out magical items. This isn't the case, just because an item has a 6 day crafting time or even a 30 day crafting time, trying to make it doesn't mean you're doing nothing but making your character a cash cow.Actually, that was kind of what Diego was saying - that by spending a year of downtime crafting he could make a 25% overhead on whatever he's making, and by extension that wealth is not a limitation etc.
Your accusation would also be accurate if any one had said that all someone has to do is sit around and churn out magical items. This isn't the case, just because an item has a 6 day crafting time or even a 30 day crafting time, trying to make it doesn't mean you're doing nothing but making your character a cash cow.Actually, that was kind of what Diego was saying - that by spending a year of downtime crafting he could make a 25% overhead on whatever he's making, and by extension that wealth is not a limitation etc.
Pizza Lord wrote:Since the side Diego and I are debating on is that this 'might' be too powerful, we're actually the ones trying to keep overpowered items from too easily ending up in peoples' hands. But no one here has made any statement that this allows infinite wealth or that a character will ultimately be more powerful by 20th-level ("Go find the quote, and if it isn't the specific quote, it invalidates anything you might possibly have to say!"). There are items that unbalance characters at certain levels, just because eventually at level 17 or higher they won't does not mean it isn't a concern.Yeah, see above.
You trying to imply that anyone using a Craft feat is not playing a traditional game of Pathfinder/D&D is troubling, either that you actually feel that way or because you were making a dismissive accusation that clearly someone you disagree with must be unable to play DnD.I've never implied anything of the sort - in fact the two groups I DM for at the moment both use crafting feats and they're very much playing traditional PF. However, I am stating clearly that a player who spends over a year of downtime crafting an item at 25% value (through acquiring Magic Capital through profession checks and/or running businesses) purely in order to sell that item to make a profit (gaming the crafting system in the process) might be straying a bit from the original premise of Pathfinder, yes. And frankly, I don't see how that's an insult, and accusation or particularly troubling.
But let me repeat myself for clarity - What I'm saying is this: Pathfinder is based around a series of premises. One of them is that you do not have an unlimited amount of wealth (see the WBL charts), and one is that you do not have an unlimited amount of downtime (see the downtime rules, various articles on how to avoid the 15 minute adventuring day, the fact that classes are balanced around having multiple encounters per day, and the vast majority of adventure paths).
(Diego, note that I'm saying "not unlimited downtime", not "no downtime")
If you stray from these premises, the game might and probably will run differently. That's not a flaw with the system, that's the result of you tinkering with it. If you pour sugar in your gas tank, odds are the car isn't going to run very long - That's not the car's fault.
Think of it like playing in a low-magic setting but you don't actually modify the classes, you just make magic items very rare. The first thing that happens is that anyone who doesn't have access to magic is screwed. Fighters rely on magic items to gain the buffs they need in order to compete with classes who get those buffs through their class mechanics - like paladins, rangers and to a lesser degree barbarians. Removing, say, boots of Flying, potions of Fly etc means that any class who can cast a flight spell on themselves is vastly more powerful than before.
The next thing that happens is that those classes who can't heal themselves have to take some rather long trips to the hospital every time they get dinged up. Again, fighters and rogues get hosed.
Then people start realizing that without magical weapons they have a hard time getting through magical damage reduction. This primarily punishes martial classes, but the ranger and the paladin can scrape by with the right spells. The Rogue or the Fighter? Not so much
Very good Kudaku, selecting citations, giving your interpretation of them, and then "confuting"it.
But you are stating an opinion like a fact:
"I've never implied anything of the sort - in fact the two groups I DM for at the moment both use crafting feats and they're very much playing traditional PF. However, I am stating clearly that a player who spends over a year of downtime crafting an item at 25% value (through acquiring Magic Capital through profession checks and/or running businesses) purely in order to sell that item to make a profit (gaming the crafting system in the process) might be straying a bit from the original premise of Pathfinder, yes. And frankly, I don't see how that's an insult, and accusation or particularly troubling."
I have cited 2 AP where you get a year or more of downtime. Legacy of Fire and Kingmaker. Second darkness too has a year of downtime between the first and second module. Jade regent has you on a long overland trek. Months if not years, AFAIK. I don't know how much time you spend aboard a ship without combat in Skull & Shackles, but I don't think it is a small quantity.
So your assumption that downtime is a limited commodity isn't so accurate even when speaking of AP.
You can choose to say "a year passed" or "you trek for 3 weeks", without allowing the PC to do anything significant during that time but it is not a given.
Even without the UC rules you have time to enchant stuff at half cost, almost doubling your WBL. Then you can benefit from your increase in power to defeat your enemies spending less consumables.
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But let's put all that aside for the moment. Your claim is that a 5th level (or 7th? 9th? You list a few different levels) character who dedicates his race, class, skills and feats to crafting can craft a Luck Blade, giving him access to a wish. Let's look closer at that.
The luck blade is one of the worst kind of items to craft, as it has a high production cost compared to its price. [Edit: Just to be clear: the Luck blade was the example item of Pizza Lord, not a choice of Kudaku]
Those 25K of material components are a problem.Make it a +5 weapon. CL required: 15, DC 20, +5 for lacking the level, to a total DC of 25, easy to achieve at level 5 when you get Craft weapon and armor: take 10, class skill +3, 1 skill/level +5, +2 (or more) from intelligence of 14+ and crafter fortune +5 = 25.
[Edit: as Gauss pointed out, you need to use Craft weapon for this to work, but you can add a +2 for masterwork tools too that way).
25,315 gp to craft the weapon. Pricey for a 5th level character, so at that level you "only" make a +3 weapon, you need to wait till level 8 for your +5 (or equivalent) weapon, if you follow WBL.
In the meantime you can enjoy your +3 weapon,+3 armor, +3 shield and so on.
Even better, make it a +3 cloak. 4.500, fully affordable for a 5th level character, and very good.
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If time and wealth is not a valid or relevant limitation/balancing point, the crafting feats really suck.
You spend a feat to be able to convert one irrelevant resource to another irrelevant resource, saving a bit of money by spending a bit of time, when you could have just bought the item and had the feat left for something else.
Diego Rossi: That's an issue with the newly published downtime rules (weren't those explicitly marked as optional rules? IDK, don't have UCa) and how they break the wealth by level, not an issue with crafting rules. Because instead of spending a year to craft a luckblade to get a wish, you could spend like 7 months and buy a scroll of wish.
You need to combine them with a crafting feat to get the maximum effect.
The UC rules allow you to produce X value of capital (magical, labor, ecc.) paing X/2 in gp and adding work (i.e. time).
The capital can be sold for X/2 gp (for 0 gain) or used at full value to build something, from house to a full plate to a magical item.
Depending on what you are building you ability to sell at full or half price varies and your gains change.
If you are building a bow with some of your capital you pay 1/6 of the bow price in gp, not 1/3, so you get a slight increase in you gains.
If you are using magical capital to build a magic item you use the magical capital at full value. Each unit of magical capital is worth 100 gp when used to build something and the cost to produce it is 50 gp.
So for each unit of magical capital that you use you save 50 gp.
The big advantage is that you can craft 1,000 gp of magical items in a day (2,000 gp with accelerate crafting, even more with the appropriate feats and abilities), so you get the highest return for the time you spend this way.
Even without selling the items, if you have the time and little money, it is a great way to increase your WBL. Spend a few days gathering the material needed and crafting your first +1 cloak will cost 250 gp instead of 500 gp. Against the poor guy without crafting feats that will buy the same cloak for 1.000 gp.
x4 WBL ..... Good (if you are the player).
Note: You cannot use Crafter's Fortune on spellcraft checks so you just spent 5 ranks in a skill (Craft Weapon) for no other reason than to be able to craft that +5 weapon.
You need to combine them with a crafting feat to get the maximum effect.
If they're irrelevant resources/limitations, why is "maximum effect" relevant? I mean, I could put a fan to my mouth to get maximum air, but what's the point?
And regardless, it's not always true. In the case of getting a Wish, buying a scroll is cheaper than crafting a luckblade. For ANY spell 8th level or lower buying the spell directly is cheaper than crafting the item. And with X amount of time required for the crafter to make a Sword +5 another character could have put the feat to Power Attack and bought a Sword +4.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, wheren't the required caster level for enhancement bonuses on weapons/armor one of those hardcoded things that where clarified not to be bypassable? Not that it matters, the example could as well have been a ring of protection or whatever.
This is true. But mainly this discussion is (or moves back and forth between) how this system works in regards to caster/non-caster, allowing the disregard of requirements, whether the penalties and costs applied to those who do or don't disregard requirements are too much or too little, and whether it might allow the creation of an unbalanced item in the wrong hands.Along those lines, since a non-casting crafter's route to creating magic items goes through the Master Craftsman feat, which only allows them to meet prerequisites for the Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor feats it wouldn't behoove us to compare wands, potions, or scrolls (of wish) until we're sure someone can even get it within their means.
Try to be more concise. For me and a lot others English isn't our native language, and your paragraph long sentences become hard to understand.
But comparing investment:
A wizard at 7th level could take Craft Magic Arms and Armor and craft a Luckblade to get a wish for 43k. The craft DC is 27, so a +17 modifier is needed, likely +10 class/ranks +5 int +2 masterwork tool.
Cost: 43k, 43 days, 1 useful feat, 7 otherwise useful skill ranks.
A fighter at 7th level could take Master Craftsman and CMA&A and craft a Luckblade to get a wish for 43k. +17 modifier through +10 class/ranks, +2 MC, +2 Tool, +3 Skill Focus.
Cost: 43k, 43 days, 1 useful feats, 2 feat taxes, 7 otherwise crappy skill ranks.
A fighter, wizard or anyone else at 6th level could otherwise have Dangerously Curious trait, max Use Magic Device (unless they have it on their spell list like wizard) and buy a scroll for 29k and a scroll of Heroism or three for some hundreds. Modifier for fighter +9 class/ranks +1 curious +2 tool +3 skill focus +2 heroism.
Cost: 30k, 2 days, 1 useful feat, 1 useful trait, 7 very useful skill ranks.
In the cases where there is an instance of what you refer to, like 'Caster must be two times bonus provided' or 'Caster level required is 3 times bonus' such as Bracers of armor, etc. The cost is only counted as a requirement, which according to the current way they have it written, is able to be disregarded by a flat +5 no matter how powerful the item or how far from meeting the requirement you are. It only takes into account that you are disregarding 1 requirement.
Actually, in the case of weapons and armor, it is not listed as a requirement. Requirement is a specific game mechanic term, and the requirements are listed under each item. In the case of a luckblade, it's the feat and wish/miracle. The magic weapon section also states that the caster has to be of a level three times the enhancement bonus - it does not call this a "requirement". Unless there's been some errata I am not aware of, by RAW it seems you cannot craft a luckblade before level 6 (though of course, the game is built around that you'll be able to afford it around level 12-14 or so).
BTW, you could just look at it the opposite way. View the DC of crafting as 5+5*Requirements+CL, and that people who have the requirement get a +5 bonus.
Simply, "Luckblade Craft DC: 27. If you have access to the Wish or Miracle spell, you gain a +5 bonus on checks to craft a Luckblade."
Exactly same mechanical outcome.
If you as a sorcerer invest loads and loads in getting useless spell for the purpose of crafting, yes, that might be a bad investment. You know what's also a bad investment? Putting a 16 in Strength on your sorcerer and getting the power attack/cleave line.
To clarify, the requirement of 2*bonus caster levels for Bracers of Armor can be skipped by taking +5 to the DC. The requirement of 3*bonus caster levels for weapons (and armor?) cannot be skipped as far as I know.
To clarify, the requirement of 2*bonus caster levels for Bracers of Armor can be skipped by taking +5 to the DC. The requirement of 3*bonus caster levels for weapons (and armor?) cannot be skipped as far as I know.
Eeeeencorrect!
Crafting and Bypassing Requirements:
What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?
As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
Okay then! Didn't know about that FAQ. Not that it matters much in this case.
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You need to combine them with a crafting feat to get the maximum effect.
If they're irrelevant resources/limitations, why is "maximum effect" relevant? I mean, I could put a fan to my mouth to get maximum air, but what's the point?
And regardless, it's not always true. In the case of getting a Wish, buying a scroll is cheaper than crafting a luckblade. For ANY spell 8th level or lower buying the spell directly is cheaper than crafting the item. And with X amount of time required for the crafter to make a Sword +5 another character could have put the feat to Power Attack and bought a Sword +4.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, wheren't the required caster level for enhancement bonuses on weapons/armor one of those hardcoded things that where clarified not to be bypassable? Not that it matters, the example could as well have been a ring of protection or whatever.
I never said they were "irrelevant", I did say that they aren't as relevant as some poster in this thread say. It depend a lot on the play style of the group. So if, as probable, a group don't fall in the extremes ("you have 5 week of casting before you get to level 16 and the campaign end" or "you can take as much downtime as you wish"), maximizing your returns matter.
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About your second comment: making a scroll of the wish spell require a 17th level caster, there is no way to bypass that limit. When making a wish blade you can have any caster level, as long as you can beat the crafting DC.
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In the case of getting a Wish, buying a scroll is cheaper than crafting a luckblade. For ANY spell 8th level or lower buying the spell directly is cheaper than crafting the itemThis is true. But mainly this discussion is (or moves back and forth between) how this system works in regards to caster/non-caster, allowing the disregard of requirements, whether the penalties and costs applied to those who do or don't disregard requirements are too much or too little, and whether it might allow the creation of an unbalanced item in the wrong hands.
Simplest wish based item:
Tome of Understanding
Aura strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th
Slot none; Price 27,500 gp (+1)
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, miracle or wish; Cost 26,250 gp (+1)
and
In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.
3 wishes (for the ring) 75.000 gp.
Rings that duplicate spells with costly material components add in the value of 50 × the spell's component cost.
This is for ring that duplicate a spell effect, i.e. have a permanent effect.
I never said they were "irrelevant", I did say that they aren't as relevant as some poster in this thread say. It depend a lot on the play style of the group. So if, as probable, a group don't fall in the extremes ("you have 5 week of casting before you get to level 16 and the campaign end" or "you can take as much downtime as you wish"), maximizing your returns matter.
The percentual difference between a day and a year is much much greater than the difference between a year and ~17 months (after which you could buy the sword).
About your second comment: making a scroll of the wish spell require a 17th level caster, there is no way to bypass that limit. When making a wish blade you can have any caster level, as long as you can beat the crafting DC.
I'm not saying you should craft the scroll. I'm saying you buy it.
Also, are you sure you can let it have any caster level? It goes against this pretty specific statement by James Jacobs. Now, Jacobs isn't "the rules guy", but usually he notes that by saying "well this is how I do it at my table" or similar. This time he states it boldly, and says it's the "general rule".
When the arguments for this being able are based on completely arbitrary circumstances (wealth and time allowed), it seems weird to discount buying as the superior method based on te same complately arbitrary circumstances.
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Diego Rossi:
The downtime system proposed in Ultimate Campaign makes the wealth and time requirements easier to meet....
Conclusion
Depending on the kind of game you are playing, crafting and its associated baggage will be varying degrees of overpowered. For longer term, more sandbox-style game, the crafting system does not work with the WBL guidelines. For most APs, suitable downtime is given for some crafting, but not enough to demolish the WBL guidelines.
I am happy to see that someone has got what I am saying, and yes I fully agree with your conclusion.
the effect of the crafting feats has an extreme variance, dependent on the kind of campaign you are playing.
^Yeah, that I can agree with. All rules have extreme variance in usefulness though. In a campaign on a stunted magic plane casters will be weaker, if there are no heavy armors in your game power attack will be even more powerful etc.
Sure, if you're in a game with LOADS of downtime but where magic items can't be bought, item creation will be overpowered. That's not what the game is designed around though.
That said, the issue with the UCa rules are in my opinion issues with UCa, not item creation, and applies equally to being able to buy stuff vastly out of the intended wealth for your level.
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In the category of house rules - I only have one regarding crafting, its simple, and it has worked very well for me: you cannot craft an item worth more than 1/4 the value on the "Character Wealth by Level" table. It lets folks craft items to fill in the gaps of what they want, but they aren't able to craft stuff that exceeds the power level of the game. The characters will get items more powerful/expensive than that thru loot, but again, I get to control what they are getting so I can be sure that it isn't overpowering the game.
It is a little gamist, but I simply handwave it as "you aren't able to find the components you need to craft the item. Maybe you'll have better luck later (when you are higher level)".
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Only partially right, Pizza Lord. Ilja assume that buying a scroll of wish is easy.
The Available Magic Items able say:
Metropolis 16,000 gp
A wish scroll cost 28.825 gp so it is not an item with a 75% availability.
It is one of the 4d4 major items presents in the city. As the number of major items is fairly high, the chance of finding a wish scroll is extremely low.
So there is no assurance of being able to buy one simply because you have the money, while you if you have the feat and the money you can make your wish item if you want.
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A wish scroll cost 28.825 gp so it is not an item with a 75% availability.
It is one of the 4d4 major items presents in the city. As the number of major items is fairly high, the chance of finding a wish scroll is extremely low.So there is no assurance of being able to buy one simply because you have the money, while you if you have the feat and the money you can make your wish item if you want.
Assuming that the access to a scroll of wish is more limited than access to the 43k of magical supplies for creating the luckblade is again, arbitrary DM decisions. Whether the materials for magic item creation are treated as loads of small cheap parts that are available anywhere, or as a singular unit, is completely up to the DM and not stated in the rules.
For example, I think that it's a fair ruling that a luckblade that costs 25k extra in magical supplies because it replicates a spell that has a 25k diamond, would have a similar diamond as part of the item creation materials. Of course this is a DM decision, but no more arbitrary than saying the cost is made up of loads and loads of 1cp Chickens.
Look, I agree that with a certain specific subset of campaign styles crafting can be overpowered, but right now we're to assume:
- That WBL is ignored
- That there's plenty of time
- That large cities are rare enough that there's an issue checking a bunch of them
- That the 43k crafting material for the sword is considered lots of little items rather than as one unit
- That the campaign has an issue with low-level character getting access to a single-wish Luckblade but no issues with them getting access to the +4 Belt of physical Might, +2 Sword, Boots of Haste and +2 Armor they could buy with the cash they spent getting a single wish.
These are quite a lot of assumptions, and I think that when the issue has to be exemplified with such a very specific niche of gaming, maybe that's at the point where house rules are more relevant - if you want to have a very specific campaign, quite far from what the standard assumptions of the game are, you need house rules.
Ilja, was that a gender-neutral third person pronoun! First time outside of Dinosaur comics I have seen someone write that :)