Two quick questions (Half-fiend / Increasement of INT)

[TheCyrus]

Hello, my fellow roleplayers. I've got two questions regarding the rules of Pathfinder:

1- My DM thought it was a good idea to apply the half-fiend template to my character. I remember back in D&D 3.5, when you use one of those templates, it had a level adjustment. Let's say, if I'm level 5, my level was adjusted to 7 so I need the same experience of a level 7 to become a level 8 character being a level 5 character. In Pathfinder it only increases my "challenge rating", but does it apply the same way?

2- Skill points and INT increasement. If I get a PERMANENT int increasement, do I get more skill points when that happens? Does it happen when I level up or it doesn't happen?

Thanks in advance.

[jlighter]

1 - Sort of. I don't remember the exact balance, but it's in Appendix 4 of the Bestiary (Monsters as PCs). You're effectively changing your character to be more powerful, so it does unbalance things a tad. With a template like that, how out of balance you are depends on your HD.

2 - Absolutely. If you get a permanent increase (level-up bonus, Manual magic item, Wish spell, or wearing a Int-boost headband for 24 hours), you get more skill points.

[Archaeik]

Headband of Vast Intelligence wrote:

This intricate gold headband is decorated with several small blue and deep purple gemstones. The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Intelligence of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn. A headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer's total Hit Dice. These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly determined Knowledge skills.

Skill points granted from any other increase are granted immediately.

Usually this will be at a level up, so it's not really problematic.

Now, if you lose skill points from a decrease in INT, the next time you level, you may only gain new skill points up to your new maximum as determined by the total you should have from hit dice. (This can result in you learning 0 skills)

Edit: Guess I was wrong about the languages not being automatic?(see below)

[jlighter]

Archaeik wrote:

Higher INT also grants you additional language slots, but you do not acquire them without effort as a "bonus".

I thought the Devs had ruled that if your Int Bonus went up, you automatically gained bonus languages as if you had started with said Int score. Don't have a link, but thought it had come up.

Edit: Link

[Are]

1. In Pathfinder, decisions regarding such adjustments are left mostly up to the GM. There are a few guidelines for this in the Bestiary, but they don't really apply to templates.

The developers tend to suggest that all the PCs should use similarly-powered monsters or templates, rather than some characters being "normal" while others have a template.

[Archaeik]

FAQ

Quote:

Intelligence: If my Intelligence modifier increases, can I select another bonus language?

Yes. For example, if your Int is 13 and you reach level 4 and apply your ability score increase to Int, this increases your Int bonus from +1 to +2, which grants you another bonus language.
Technically, Int-enhancing items such as a headband of vast intelligence should grant a specific language (in the same way they do for skill ranks).

[Stephen Ede]

The Half-Fiend template gives a CR bonus that roughly works as a Level adjustment. With that template is changes as your total HD increases.

Without going into fiddly details of the mechanics -
(ECL = Effective Character Level)
1 HD = ECL 2
2 HD = ECL 3
3 HD = ECL 4
4 HD = ECL 5
5 HD = ECL 6
6 HD = ECL 7
7 HD = ECL 8
8 HD = ECL 9
9 HD = ECL 10
10 HD = ECL 11
11 HD = ECL 13
From then on your ECL will be HD + 2.

Hope that helps
If you want the actual mechanics of what's happening I can try to explain but can't promise my explanation skills are that good. :-(

Note: These are based on the process from Bestiary for Monster races which are a bit of a kludge, but I've GMed a half-celstial using these rules and it's balanced out ok.

[TheCyrus]

Hello all!!!

Well, now that's interesting. As far as I can see, there's no a SPECIAL rule for templates regarding a level adjustment. I'm curious in the mechanics behind those numbers, Stephen. I want to discuss that with my GM, if he doesn't want to adjust my level, it's up to him since there's no a particular rule for that one... but if you can explain those numbers, it will be good for further template usages.

And yes, I've been reading the bestiary and I can't understand how those rules might apply to my situation. In any case, I received good info so far, and many thank you for your explanation about the INT thing. So, I guess I'll have to wait until I level up to allocate my retroactive bonus stats.

Thanks for your answers.

[Archaeik]

I would like to point out, that while it seems reasonable and within the rules to not a apply an effective level adjustment, your GM should still take your increased CR into account when designing encounters as it will probably boost the CR of the average sized party by about 1.

[jlighter]

I don't know that there's a reason to wait until you level up to apply retroactive bonus stats. They should apply immediately.

[TheCyrus]

Archaeik wrote:

I would like to point out, that while it seems reasonable and within the rules to not a apply an effective level adjustment, your GM should still take your increased CR into account when designing encounters as it will probably boost the CR of the average sized party by about 1.

It's settled then. There's no level adjustment. This happened yesterday:

-Me: Hey, Nazz, apparently being a half-fiend won't adjust my effective level regarding the exp progression.

-GM: WHAT?

-Me: Yeah, the CR is how you can measure further encounters you will send upon us.

-GM: NO LEVEL ADJUSTMENT?! Back in 3.5 there was.

-Me: No. It doesn't apply to any template.

-GM: Okay, this will be fun.

-Me: Indeed.

[Stephen Ede]

TheCyrus wrote:

Hello all!!!

Well, now that's interesting. As far as I can see, there's no a SPECIAL rule for templates regarding a level adjustment. I'm curious in the mechanics behind those numbers, Stephen. I want to discuss that with my GM, if he doesn't want to adjust my level, it's up to him since there's no a particular rule for that one... but if you can explain those numbers, it will be good for further template usages.

And yes, I've been reading the bestiary and I can't understand how those rules might apply to my situation. In any case, I received good info so far, and many thank you for your explanation about the INT thing. So, I guess I'll have to wait until I level up to allocate my retroactive bonus stats.

Thanks for your answers.

I've been treating templates in the same fashion that I treat racial levels. CR = levels. Gives Bonus levels upto 1/2 the CR.

My players have both Racial levels and templates. It seem sto have balanced out reasonably well so far.

[Stephen Ede]

Hmm. If you are running with the Half-Fiend template on top on top of your PC you are seriously more powerful than your level from class levels only.
Depending on your level you will be effectively punching 1 - 2 levels above your class levels.

[Are]

TheCyrus: The fact that there's no officially-mandated level adjustment for each monster/template doesn't mean that your GM can't apply one. The rules that do exist basically just say that this type of thing is entirely up to the GM to determine.

Read this page. It states that the GM should carefully monitor any monstrous PC, and that some monsters are unsuitable as PCs while others count as having an additional class level. The only real guideline regarding power-level is that the monster's CR should be treated as its class level.