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I read a guide recently that focused on a companion controlling and wild shaping Druid. The guide mentioned that Knowledge Nature is critical to the build as it effects the different animals the Druid can change into. I'm wondering how this comes into play.
Does the druid have to make roll a Knowledge Nature check against a DC of 10+Animal's CR; the same as any PC would if they wanted to identify some specific aspect of an animal?
See here, first paragraph, last sentence.
The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.
How you determine with which animals he is "familiar" with, is up to you. My opinion is that a Knowledge(Nature) DC 5+CR should be enough for most common animals (season to taste).
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Thansk for the replies.
My Druid will be used in PFS play, so I do need to follow the RAW on this or at least the RAI. Yep, I did see that sentence in the text under Wild Shape. I was thinking the DC would be similar to the generalized roll for monsters, but I can see where a common animal Could equate more to the 5+CR DC for a common monster.
And less common animals (such as dinosaurs) would require a higher base DC. Since dinosaurs are freaking awesome, pump that skill.
Animals basically are monsters, so they use Knowledge (nature), just as elves and the like would use Knowledge (local).
And less common animals (such as dinosaurs) would require a higher base DC.Would that require a roll against 10+CR, or would it be something even more difficult?
That depends on just how common or rare the animal in question is. The Knowledge skill has a base of 10 in general, 5 for common, and 15 for exceptionally rare (the given example is the tarrasque). Naturally, the GM decides the rarity. I don't know how common dinosaurs are on Golarion or whether they have paleontology and fossils to add to the typical knowledge pool. A 15 might be something like a species that most people don't know about and that scholars only know of in half-truelegends and in the fragmented journal entries of long-dead or ill-reputed explorers and recovered castaways. Or it might just mean that it's a desert-specific creature in a world with only one isolated desert that nobody on that side of the world ever visits.
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In PFS there is no requirement.
It would be impossible, going from table to table, and GM to GM, to know what animals your Druid is "familiar" with.
It's a sensible restriction in a home game, and can really foster some roleplaying and create the idea to travel to distant worlds for the sake of learning about foreign fauna, but for PFS it's just not realistically doable.
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Keep this in mind: "Identify a common plant or animal - Nature 10" From the Knowledge section in the Core rulebook. If an animal is relatively common, it's a flat DC 10 no matter the CR (this is important for high CR animals like an Elephant, Hippo, Rhino, etc.). I suppose it depends on your region, but it's kind of a GM Call. If an animal is common, it's just a pure DC 10. With an average +0 int, you should be able to auto-succeed on knowing all common animals with a +9 knowledge (nature) [+2 nature sense, +3 class, +4 ranks) by level 4.
In PFS there is no requirement.
It would be impossible, going from table to table, and GM to GM, to know what animals your Druid is "familiar" with.
It's a sensible restriction in a home game, and can really foster some roleplaying and create the idea to travel to distant worlds for the sake of learning about foreign fauna, but for PFS it's just not realistically doable.
PFS is house ruled. RAW, there is a requirement, which is adjudicated by the GM.
Keep this in mind: "Identify a common plant or animal - Nature 10" From the Knowledge section in the Core rulebook. If an animal is relatively common, it's a flat DC 10 no matter the CR (this is important for high CR animals like an Elephant, Hippo, Rhino, etc.). I suppose it depends on your region, but it's kind of a GM Call. If an animal is common, it's just a pure DC 10. With an average +0 int, you should be able to auto-succeed on knowing all common animals with a +9 knowledge (nature) [+2 nature sense, +3 class, +4 ranks) by level 4.
Sounds like a decent RAW alternative for common animals.
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PFS is house ruled. RAW, there is a requirement, which is adjudicated by the GM.In PFS there is no requirement.
It would be impossible, going from table to table, and GM to GM, to know what animals your Druid is "familiar" with.
It's a sensible restriction in a home game, and can really foster some roleplaying and create the idea to travel to distant worlds for the sake of learning about foreign fauna, but for PFS it's just not realistically doable.
This is sort of my concern and why I was asking for clarity, because I've noted a GM at 1 of our tables asking a Druid to make the roll. Since I didn't know much about Druids at the time I wasn't exactly sure of the details of it. If the roll isn't required in PFS play, then at least 1 of our GM's isn't aware of that. As to what animals a player is familiar with, I was assuming it would be handled like trained skills for a companion and documented in the conditions gained section of the adventure/scenario sheet.
Either way, aren't I better off assuming I'll be asked to make the roll and ensuring I have a decent enough Knowledge(Nature) to make it?
Probably better off, and possibly truer to most druids' knowledge expectations. But if this is about PFS rules, and PFS doesn't require the check, then stick with PFS rules. I can understand why they rule that way--otherwise, every character would have to track every monster lore roll they made and keep it on the PFS character sheet from table to table. That could get unwieldy fast.
And also every druid henceforth would hail from the Mwangi.
On arrival to any adventure in a town or city, the players would first visit a zoo over any other establishment... indeed they'd spend whole adventures only visiting farms, zoos, animal shelters, safari's...
Probably best to pick a different battle :)
Only if the player is min-maxing instead of roleplaying, and only if the GM counts seeing the animal in a zoo as "familiar" (I would).
The main use of the rule is to prevent druids from shaping into animals they don't know about, not to create complicated questions about which animals the druid knows or to make druids track animals known like it was another spell list. If dinosaurs have only ever existed on some remote island that almost nobody knows exists, then the PC druid who grew up on the mainland won't be able to shape into a dinosaur without a very hard check. But a non-stupid PC druid can be expected to be familiar with all of the common animals on the mainland and those well-known to exist elsewhere--just take 10 on the Knowledge (nature) check.
From a practical standpoint, if your player responds by rolling through every individual dinosaur entry in the Bestiary, smack that player.
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That's the problem. The Druid entry refers to animals that the Druid is familiar with, but there is no RAW way to handle this. You'd constantly encounter table variation. Is the DC 10? or 10+CR? What animals are common, and which are rare? Is a Shaman automatically familiar with the type of animals he is attuned to?
The best way to do it, with the least table variation, is to assume every Druid can freely shapechange into any animal that they own the sourcebook for.
I've been doing PFS for only just over a year, but I've never encountered a Druid or a GM that did this, and my own Druid is 8th level. If I were you I'd point your GM to this thread and just go on wildshaping into whatever animals your character wants.
Only if the player is min-maxing instead of roleplaying, and only if the GM counts seeing the animal in a zoo as "familiar" (I would).
The main use of the rule is to prevent druids from shaping into animals they don't know about, not to create complicated questions about which animals the druid knows or to make druids track animals known like it was another spell list.
Sure, but on the same level the Player could counter-accuse the GM of setting up the situation where unless they go down that path, the GM is denying them some of the more optimal choices - deliberately nerfing them down.
What REALLY is the purpose behind denying them the opportunity to pick some of the exotic forms if not to 'shape' the class down into some less optimal choices?
Where you might accuse the payer of not roleplaying, they would have a claim to dispute that saying they were 'really into nature and wanted to see as much of it as they can' or some other perfectly legit claim.
I recommend just leaving things be; if they want it, then leave them to it, rather than have a game hijacked by players who now make every single session about going to the zoo - you have better things to do with your game time and so do the rest of the players.
Unless your decision adds value and direction to the table, I'd always suggest just letting it go and focus on something more worthwhile.
It's like GM's who insist on roleplaying shopping trips, I get it, I appreciate it, but dude we only have a few hours on an infrequent basis - I want the plot to go forward, I can RP going to the shop as a LARP IRL if I wanted to do that.
That's the problem. The Druid entry refers to animals that the Druid is familiar with, but there is no RAW way to handle this. You'd constantly encounter table variation. Is the DC 10? or 10+CR? What animals are common, and which are rare? Is a Shaman automatically familiar with the type of animals he is attuned to?
The best way to do it, with the least table variation, is to assume every Druid can freely shapechange into any animal that they own the sourcebook for.
I've been doing PFS for only just over a year, but I've never encountered a Druid or a GM that did this, and my own Druid is 8th level. If I were you I'd point your GM to this thread and just go on wildshaping into whatever animals your character wants.
Does PFS not use any of the monster lore rules from CRB? Genuine question, as I've wondered how they handle such things.
If this was intended to be a PFS-specific question, it should be posted in the appropriate forum. I'd hate for home GMs to start taking advice about PFS rules that were made to solve PFS-specific problems such as table variation. Hopefully this advice is taken in context--good for PFS goals, good or bad in other cases. I like having some abstract method of figuring out prior knowledge of creatures, while other groups might prefer the PFS-friendly method for simplicity or because "familiarity" is so ill-defined.